Singers using music stands with lyric sheets

[guitarguy19]

Well, if it were that easy.... Of course it isn't. But it's just one piece of the BIG puzzle. Why wait to hit the ceiling before you start looking to improve stuff? Oh without a doubt! I gotta list a mile long of {censored} that needs to be improved with MY band! Are you kidding? Every gig is about trying to do stuff better than we did it the gig before. But it isn't a "musician nitpicking" attitude that I come from. It comes from really paying attention to the comments and attitudes of the audience. It's really looking hard at "why did this band get this gig or this response while we didn't when we do so many things as well (if not better) then they do?" It comes from paying attention to comments from "normal people" like the girl who posted here and not saying "well, maybe she hates music stands but the 50 people who packed the dance floor didn't care!" You know what, dump the music stand and now you'll have fifty-ONE people on the dance floor and likely a few others who didn't bother to tell you they hate music stands. Because the biggest point is that those 50 people who like you now will STILL like you without it. So what is there to lose by improving small details you KNOW can be improved on? It's not the same thing as "2 people hate Kid Rock but 50 people love it". NOBODY "loves" music stands. It's just a flaw you can, at best, 'get away with'. Yeah, I can play the "yeah but they loved us anyway!" game with our flaws every gig. Doesn't mean that stuff doesn't need improving and that they might not have liked us even MORE if we if took care of that stuff. You don't improve by just hanging your hat on the stuff you can get by with.

 

 

I see your points. Honestly I do. They're all valid.

 

But don't you drive yourself crazy with a list a mile long like that? I'm not necessarily for the 'good enough' attitude either...but I'm not the kind of person that's going to nitpick every single little fricken thing and beat myself and my bandmates to death until every single fricken little thing is perfect. If something is bothering me, we need to fix it. Same goes with the other guys in the band. But maybe I'm just less of a perfectionist than you. I dunno.

 

To me, as happy as I am about how we're doing, as much fun as I have with what we're doing (remember this is a fun weekend side project for us not a profession), nitpicking on the little things that don't really matter to me and don't seem to matter to anyone else, just isn't worth my time or energy.

[TIMKEYS]

Big difference: Jumping around alot often contributes to the stage performance. Very often, especially in rock, you make a trade off between stage performance and stellar playing because stage performance is a big part of why the audience responds to a band. When has a music stand ever contributed to a stage performance. It's a DETRACTION, not a PLUS. If this were the symphony, I'd INSIST on everyone using music stands. Because it is ONLY about the music, not the appearance. But we're talking about rock 'n roll, man! 3 Chords and the Truth and all that {censored}. Get out there and ROCK the crowd. Leave your music stand for the junior high choir.

 

 

Bull{censored} ,,, No amount of jumping around is going to turn a {censored}ty singer into a good one. Vocals matter , and they matter alot. Just because bands can run that {censored} past a room full of drunk people doesnt make it any better. The stage show being more important than the actual music,, is one of the biggest crutches in rock and roll.

[Vito Corleone]

I see your points. Honestly I do. They're all valid. But don't you drive yourself crazy with a list a mile long like that? I'm not necessarily for the 'good enough' attitude either...but I'm not the kind of person that's going to nitpick every single little fricken thing and beat myself and my bandmates to death until every single fricken little thing is perfect. If something is bothering me, we need to fix it. Same goes with the other guys in the band. But maybe I'm just less of a perfectionist than you. I dunno.

It's not about being a perfectionist or about beating myself and others to death. It isn't like that at all. If it were nobody would be having any fun and this is primarily about having fun.

For MY band (and this is just us---every band has a different game plan and different goals) it's about the fact that we've set a goal for ourselves that we're still a fair bit away from achieving. So it's about trying to jump those hurdles as we reach them. Every gig it might just be one little thing: "let's add this to the show; let's not do THIS stupid looking thing anymore" but....after a dozen gigs we're 12 steps closer to where we wanna be. I think most bands are like this, the only difference with us is we might be a BIT more aggressive about it--instead of taking 24 gigs to do 12 steps or waiting until something becomes an obvious problem, we just try to jump on it a bit sooner.

To me, as happy as I am about how we're doing, as much fun as I have with what we're doing (remember this is a fun weekend side project for us not a profession), nitpicking on the little things that don't really matter to me and don't seem to matter to anyone else, just isn't worth my time or energy.

Hey that's great. As long as you're where you want to be and meeting all your goals, what else is there to worry about?

[Vito Corleone]

Bull{censored} ,,, No amount of jumping around is going to turn a {censored}ty singer into a good one.

 

Where did I say that? I just said they are only one part of a singer's overall performance when we're talking about rock. The difference between being Mick Jagger and Jose Carreras. Jumping around doesn't make Mick a better singer. It probably makes him a WORSE one. But it DOES make him a better frontman. A music stand? Isn't going to help him unless he beats somebody over the head with it. What would people rather see? Mick running around the stage strutting like a peacock and making up the words to songs as he goes along? Or standing in one place glancing down at his music stand to make sure he gets all the lyrics to "Satisfaction" exactly right every night?

 

 

 

The stage show being more important than the actual music,, is one of the biggest crutches in rock and roll.

 

 

I'd take it a step further and say it is part of what DEFINES rock and roll. Has been from day one. That's been something that has pissed off millions of parents and even quite a few musicians over the years, but it's true. Rock is about attitude and fun and youth and energy. Musicianship is secondary. At BEST.

 

And a music stand is about the least "rock" artifact I can think of. It pretty much symbolizes everything rock rebelled against in the first place.

[guitarguy19]

As long as you're where you want to be and meeting all your goals, what else is there to worry about?

 

That is completely and totally my point!

 

And believe me...we find other things to improve and pick at. We're definitely not all loosey-goosey we're perfect and glassing over everything and not wanting to improve. We focus on making sure harmonies are done great, that we continually improve flow between songs, etc etc. Stuff like that. The music stand just isn't high on the priority list that's all.

[Vito Corleone]

The music stand just isn't high on the priority list that's all.

 

 

I get that. Just seems like such an EASY fix.

 

Talk about crutches.....Although I'm not the frontman, I've been singing long enough to know this---I'll NEVER fully learn the words to a song as long as I have that lyric sheet in front of me. At some point you just have to take the training wheels off and go. Nothing forces you to learn the lyrics quicker than being FORCED to come up with them.

[guitarguy19]

 

I get that. Just seems like such an EASY fix. Talk about crutches.....Although I'm not the frontman, I've been singing long enough to know this---I'll NEVER fully learn the words to a song as long as I have that lyric sheet in front of me. At some point you just have to take the training wheels off and go. Nothing forces you to learn the lyrics quicker than being FORCED to come up with them.

 

 

How can you judge how easy it will be for someone else to get rid of something they think they need? Without being in their head you can only say it seems like an easy fix. You don't really know.

 

And 2nd, although it may make no difference to ya, he cycles out the lyrics after playing the song long enough for him to feel comfortable. He has about half the songs we play on a given night in his binder. I think he genuinely has a tough time memorizing lyrics. It's not a lazy factor at all. And we tend to add 1-2 new songs a week on average...which I can totally understand being hard to keep up with for someone that doesn't memorize words easily.

[Vito Corleone]

How can you judge how easy it will be for someone else to get rid of something they think they need? Without being in their head you can only say it seems like an easy fix. You don't really know.

 

 

Which would be why I said SEEMS.

 

But it's just words to a song. Memorization is just a trick that takes practice, for the most part. I've worked with a lot of different singers over the years. I've never yet run across one who couldn't memorize the words to a few dozen songs. Especially when you're singing songs that have been around forEVER. But if the guy has some sort of serious brain defect that makes it harder for him to memorize stuff than most human beings, I'd consider going one of the more low-profile/high-tech routes.

[guitarguy19]

Which would be why I said SEEMS. But it's just words to a song. Memorization is just a trick that takes practice, for the most part. I've worked with a lot of different singers over the years. I've never yet run across one who couldn't memorize the words to a few dozen songs. Especially when you're singing songs that have been around forEVER. But if the guy has some sort of serious brain defect that makes it harder for him to memorize stuff than most human beings, I'd consider going one of the more low-profile/high-tech routes.

 

Why does it have to be a 'serious brain defect'? Can't it be that he's just not that good at memorizing stuff quickly? Everyone has weaknesses. I'm a mechanical engineer and I can solve math problems and figure stuff out like nobody's business. My brother recently became a paramedic...he memorized books full of medical crap. I could NEVER memorize all those terms and definitions fast enough to pass those courses. Oh it's easy (he says) you just put it on flash cards and go over it lots. Doesn't matter. I'd take 1000 times longer than he did before I could recall all that information. People are good at different things. Our singer learns his rhythm guitar progressions (remember none of this flies if we're talking about someone who's solely responsible for singing) in a snap. He just takes longer to memorize lyrics.

 

And yet again, whatever it takes for him to feel comfortable is fine with me so long as it seems to be a non-issue with all of our employers and fans. We can go back and forth all night, but I just don't see the stand as a concern. Back to the point about 'we're meeting all our goals' and such........

[wheresgrant3]

Yup and the same people can overlook pitchy out of key vocals if the singer is jumping around alot. so go figure.

Absolutely... my singer is guiltier than most hitting some flat notes throughout the night. He's also moving around onstage like he's doing the PX90 work out. The likehood of a singer using a stand and moving around that much is probably unlikely. So what do you figure people remember the most... the singer who's occasionally flat and out of breath but in constant motion from the first note to the last... or the singer that sang real well, but stood like a statue all night, hands attached to the mic stand and eyes on the lyric page. I can point to a few bands in my area that sound good and have decent singers... but are playing to dive rooms because they can't elevate their presentation beyond that of a garage band. Now I could assume that these bands are completely satisfied playing these rooms, but when I see them at my gig the first words out of their mouth is "how do I get your gigs?" First step... lose the music stand.

I think the bigger picture here is that visual presentation is a successful component to most performance based bands. Some state that visuals aren't a part of that success and could/should be overlooked. Then in the next breath they are wondering how they can 'advance' their show. Some have argued that musicians are the only ones that really notice a music stand onstage. I'll counter that musicians often (and sometimes incorrectly) believe what the audience does and doesn't notice.

[Vito Corleone]

I'll counter that musicians often (and sometimes incorrectly) believe what the audience does and doesn't notice.

I 2nd that.

I think it is a general flaw of human nature that people tend to believe what they want to believe and will search for validation for their prejudices and beliefs. Musicians are not immune to this.

If a singer likes using a music stand he'll likely focus on all the evidence that supports "people don't care about music stands" and ignore/dismiss the rest. That's just human nature.

But it doesn't make it the truth.

[3shiftgtr]

I 2nd that. I think it is a general flaw of human nature that people tend to believe what they want to believe and will search for validation for their prejudices and beliefs. Musicians are not immune to this. If a singer likes using a music stand he'll likely focus on all the evidence that supports "people don't care about music stands" and ignore/dismiss the rest. That's just human nature. But it doesn't make it the truth.

And if you don't like them cuz you feel they are a barrier, and you are WORKING to not have them, then you are going to argue against.

And that doesn't make it the truth? Or is that the case when the other side says it?

Wait...I mean that is not the case even when the other side says that it is the case against the argument for it....wait....lemme look at my stand...

[guitarguy19]

Now I could assume that these bands are completely satisfied playing these rooms, but when I see them at my gig the first words out of their mouth is " how do I get your gigs? " First step... lose the music stand.

 

And when you get asked that question as you step out from the dressing room (like you're somebody woo hoo! ) onto the casino floor, with a music stand sitting 25 ft away on the stage?

 

And you have no more openings on the schedule, along with no sub par gigs you're playing just to fill space?

 

Face it fellas...the stand don't really matter. It's just ya'lls pet peeve. Bang POW!

[Vito Corleone]

And if you don't like them cuz you feel they are a barrier, and you are WORKING to not have them, then you are going to argue against.

 

 

What? You don't think there isn't a big part of me who would RATHER have a music stand up there with all my chord changes and lyrics so I wouldn't have to memorize stuff? Of COURSE I would. My life would be so much EASIER if I took that route.

 

But the smarter, more-reasonable side of my brain knows that that isn't the best path the take for the sake of the overall performance.

 

This is about working AGAINST certain ingrained prejudices, not working to VALIDATE them.

[guitarguy19]

 

This is about working AGAINST certain ingrained prejudices

 

 

What...like "every band that uses a music stand must be amateur and not pay any attention to detail?" :poke:

[3shiftgtr]

 

What? You don't think there isn't a big part of me who would RATHER have a music stand up there with all my chord changes and lyrics so I wouldn't have to memorize stuff? Of COURSE I would. My life would be so much EASIER if I took that route. But the smarter, more-reasonable side of my brain knows that that isn't the best path the take for the sake of the overall performance. This is about working AGAINST certain ingrained prejudices, not working to VALIDATE them.

 

 

First off, it was humor. Itz a innernetz argament.

 

But since you brought up the concept of the music stand being an ingrained prejudice....do you mean the prejudice for them by musicians?

[Vito Corleone]

First off, it was humor. Itz a innernetz argament. But since you brought up the concept of the music stand being an ingrained prejudice....do you mean the prejudice for them by musicians?

 

 

Yeah, it's all for fun here. I don't take this stuff too seriously.

 

But I don't necessarily mean an ingrained prejudice for music stands SPECIFICALLY, but certainly an ingrained prejudice for humans to take the easy and comfortable way out. So in musicians this often manifests in things like music stands, regular street clothing on stage, etc.

[Vito Corleone]

What...like "every band that uses a music stand must be amateur and not pay any attention to detail?" :poke:

 

 

Nah.

 

More like the tendency for human beings to think "gee, I'm a lazy {censored}. I'm going to take the easiest path to my goal each and every time. Even if that means convincing myself my actual goal is less than what it could possibly be".

[chemikool]

The fact that you are the front man and the band leader is cool.

 

Ya I think so - I don't like leaving things to chance.

 

The "you wouldn't play in my band if you use a stand" guy probably runs the lights, books the gigs, owns the PA, etc etc. Is the singer still in control then?

 

OK let me explain what I mean by "control"

Once the booking is done, once the PA/lights are set up; YES you are at the mercy of the singer...here is what I'm getting at:

 

Ever play in a band where the singer was late or didn't show at all?

Ever play in a band where the singer forgot the words and the band had to improvise something until he/she remembered?

Ever play in a band where the singer altered the set list because of voice concerns?

Ever play in a band where the singer go too drunk/high/etc to finish the night?

 

My point is that once you get to the stage...it's all in the singer's hands...and most/all singers know this and wield it to their advantage.

 

 

Can't help it bro. "I'm the boss of my band and democratic bands don't ever work and you're opinion doesn't matter unless you're a lead singer and if you don't sing don't expect to call the shots expect to get sent packing and the singer is always in control of the band whether you think they are or not " comes off a little egomaniacal!

 

Yes, I'm the boss of the band.

Yes, democratic bands do not work as much as non-democratic bands. Now before you completely take that statement 100% literal...step back and ask yourself if you think I dictate EVERY LITTLE DETAIL. If you answer yes then clearly the discussion is over.

 

Stop cherry-picking my statements...

 

I did not say "you're opinion doesn't matter unless you're a lead singer"

What I said was your opinion about a tool that a singer may or may not need is invalid if you've never done that job; because you don't know what it requires.

You mentioned being a mechE -- I'm a chemist (with a screen name like chemikool go figure)...so I know all that math too broseph. That doesn't mean I can do your job and I know you can't do mine. Different jobs require different tools...I would never try to tell you how to do your job better...so why do people (not you per se) feel the need to dictate to a singer (again if you've never been the main singer you HAVE NO IDEA) how to do his/her job? What if your singer started telling you to ditch the combo amp and bring 4 full Marshall stacks and wouldn't take no for an answer? What would you say to that and what would your reasoning be?

 

Nor did I say " if you don't sing don't expect to call the shots expect to get sent packing"...that is in my signature by SOMEONE ELSE...I didn't say it but merely referenced it...because it is TRUE!

 

I also did not say "the singer is always in control of the band whether you think they are or not." I certainly implied something to that end...but that is NOT what I said, nor my intent (see my control explanation above).

 

But yea...I'm the ego maniac for heading up my own ship. Every band member has repeatedly told me how much they enjoy the band and the successes we enjoy...which I take as a compliment FOR MY LARGE EGO.

 

And to bring it full circle back to the OT:

Music stands should not be used in a full rock band setting.

[chemikool]

And as a bonus --- while at work today I got a call from a new club in our band rotation that wants us next Saturday...the dude looked at our calendar and saw we only had one Saturday open for the next two months. I started to hem and haw about the short notice/lack of and he raised the price by $400! Money talks and BS walks...Then he complimented me on my business style...so it isn't just me that thinks I'm doing it right...if that is ego then so be it.

Do clubs call you? Or do you call them?

[3shiftgtr]

 

Yeah, it's all for fun here. I don't take this stuff too seriously. But I don't necessarily mean an ingrained prejudice for music stands SPECIFICALLY, but certainly an ingrained prejudice for humans to take the easy and comfortable way out. So in musicians this often manifests in things like music stands, regular street clothing on stage, etc.

 

 

I dunno man....seeing a band and seeing a music stand and taking the stance that he is lazy is a prejudice. As I said, a million posts below, what if it is a last minute fill in thing? He's not allowed to play the music right? It is not a matter of lazy, cuz the band can't afford to cancell the gig, so they call someone in who can do the gig, but a few charts to help him get thru the gig clam free? But you walk in and IMMEDIATELY, irregardless of anything else you might see or hear, THEY"RE LAZY......

 

That's what I was getting at with jwlusslow....does it put up a barrier, yes...all the negatives....but it can't be about respect, or prejudice or any of that stuff. You can't say someone is being disrespectful or lazy, cuz you don't know that....that's just what it is when YOU use one....and you can't push that on anyone unless you know the situation. If you walk into a band you've never seen, you can't assume ANYTHING....you have to take them for what they are worth. And to throw a lazy or disrespectful tag on someone belies any understanding of that situation.

 

I quit a band cuz the lead singer used a stand and flipped thru the book to get ideas inbetween songs. And that was his M.O. at all gigs. THAT is lazy. But if a muso is called 11th hour to a gig, no stand allowed? So the music sucks but there is no stand, and that is NOT lazy? See my point?

[Vito Corleone]

I dunno man....seeing a band and seeing a music stand and taking the stance that he is lazy is a prejudice. As I said, a million posts below, what if it is a last minute fill in thing? He's not allowed to play the music right? It is not a matter of lazy, cuz the band can't afford to cancell the gig, so they call someone in who can do the gig, but a few charts to help him get thru the gig clam free? But you walk in and IMMEDIATELY, irregardless of anything else you might see or hear, THEY"RE LAZY......

 

 

Now where did I ever say or do that? In fact, I've got a couple of posts here where I specifically laid out the exceptions for occassions when music stands would be acceptible. Don't play the "reach for the exception to break the rule" game. I've never walked in on a band I've never seen before and seen a dude with a music stand and thought him to be lazy. But if I see the same band repeatedly and the same dude is using the same music stand.....then yeah.

 

Of COURSE a fill in player would likely need charts. We're not talking about that. We're talking about it being a regular feature for a regular player in a regular band.

[wheresgrant3]

And when you get asked that question as you step out from the dressing room (like you're somebody woo hoo! ) onto the casino floor, with a music stand sitting 25 ft away on the stage?

I dunno... we don't play casinos. Maybe if we did, a music stand would be acceptable. The majority of clubs we play are larger nightclubs aimed at the 21-40 crowd.

And seriously... we not somebody at all... but we do have first call on some of the best gigs in the area. It's not because we're better musically than other bands in our market. We just tend to make better decisions that's all. Over 9 years we've built a successful name brand in the area that has attracted an full calendar and top pay from the the best clubs, 2 radio station sponsorship, some regional Budweiser sponsorships and a National sponsorship with Jagermiester. It's only natural that other musicans ask us how we did it.

And you have no more openings on the schedule, along with no sub par gigs you're playing just to fill space?

Nope... booked usually 6-18 months out. Currently we have event gigs booked into 2013. We have our opening and closing club dates for our large 2012 summer venues booked. Even the gigs that we have that just 'fill space' are 2-3x's normal gig pay here. Venues call us to book... we don't call them. So I think we have things pretty covered.

Face it fellas...the stand don't really matter. It's just ya'lls pet peeve. Bang POW!

I don't know anything about your band and the market you play in so I can only appreciate the fact that such 'visual offenses' are not noticable to club management or booking agents. In my neck of the woods it wouldn't put you on the A-list... whether that's important or not... I'm just stating it. Bookings are very competitive out here. The first thing the agent or club owner would tell you is 'lose the stand'. I could gaurantee that. They make notes like that all the time. When they have the gall to tell your bandmates to color their 'grey's' then, they will sure as hell notice the aluminum stand with the song book next to it.

[3shiftgtr]

Now where did I ever say or do that? In fact, I've got a couple of posts here where I specifically laid out the exceptions for occassions when music stands would be acceptible. Don't play the "reach for the exception to break the rule" game. I've never walked in on a band I've never seen before and seen a dude with a music stand and thought him to be lazy. But if I see the same band repeatedly and the same dude is using the same music stand.....then yeah. Of COURSE a fill in player would likely need charts. We're not talking about that. We're talking about it being a regular feature for a regular player in a regular band.

:thu:Gotcha.

I was tying in the prejudice concept with the lusslow thing....reads like nit picking, but I was trying to tie the two concepts together....while I was trying to get my oldest to finish his "end of the day" list...which the little putz was politic-ing out of.

Damn young uns always get in the way of the internetz fun.

[chemikool]

Currently we have event gigs booked into 2013

 

That is awesome! Your band kicks major arse Grant

Our furthest out is a wedding in middle 2012...and I feel lucky to have it! We don't use an agent (yet) but that day is getting closer by the second. Any advice there?

 

When they have the gall to tell your bandmates to color their 'grey's'

 

Holy Crap...I'm doomed. What do you even say to that? I would be floored if an "employer" said that I needed some Just For Men.