Members wheresgrant3 Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 Yeah but if one person constitutes 100% of the people (who matter) that complain...I don't much care. In the real world...we've had zero people out of the 10,000 that have seen us play say "what's with the stand...?" As long as the masses are happy! If we play a Kid Rock song and 2 people groan and roll their eyes but 50 hit the dance floor......... I more than understand that sentiment... if the masses don't have a problem with it the why should I. And if you are 100% happy with your gig schedule pay and upcoming opportunities then it's a no brainer. I guess the real test (if it's really important) is looking at your market, and the most desired rooms you want to gain entry in... and confirm whether you are playing there. Then ask yourself if you want to be playing there.... and then ask yourself if you envision your band playing that venue with a music stand on stage. It's not just about the music stand... it's about that committment to put on a visually engaging show that attract those desired gigs. Draw certainly can have heft... but owners, managers and agents are the gatekeepers of those most desirable gigs. And those are really the people at the end of the day that make that decision whether or not having a music stand on stage as an aide is a visual impairment or a non-issue. I say this because as I remarked before I know several good bands that have stands present that never gain entry into those rooms in my market. The stand is just a small piece of a larger picture. It has nothing to do with music really... for a formal event band music stands could certainly be accepted on stage but in the context of a rock band it lends to the perception that the band is not quite 'on the fly' as a band without one present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 It's not just about the music stand... it's about that committment to put on a visually engaging show that attract those desired gigs. Yep. I think this needs to be mentioned again: It isn't how many people, or even if anyone at all, says "ewwww...stands!" when they see a band with a music stand on stage. It's about the overall impression the look of a music stand gives people. It just doesn't say "rock". Or "committed". And doesn't contribute to a visually engaging show in any way, shape or form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 3shiftgtr Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 Over and over in this and the other thread, horn players get a pass on the stand thing.Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators BATCAT Posted July 7, 2011 Moderators Share Posted July 7, 2011 Haven't we all learned SO much from doing this again?!?!?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators BATCAT Posted July 7, 2011 Moderators Share Posted July 7, 2011 Over and over in this and the other thread, horn players get a pass on the stand thing. Why? I think it has to do people expectation of a "frontperson" (or other "star" member of a band) versus someone typically seen more as "backing". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 Over and over in this and the other thread, horn players get a pass on the stand thing. Why? Well, I don't know that they ALWAYS do. 3 guys standing in the back as a horn section? Yeah, they get a pass. Because stands are part of the accepted "look" for such a set up. Someone comes out and blows a killer sax solo but does it with a music stand in the center of the stage? No pass.God rest his soul now, but can you imagine if Clarence Clemons came out and blew a solo at a Springstreen concert while looking at a music stand the entire time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SeniorBlues Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 Over and over in this and the other thread, horn players get a pass on the stand thing. Why? Our horn players never used a stand. We never even wrote out the charts. But you can do that if you're learning one or two songs a day and playing every night. The horn bands I know now don't gig more than once a month or so. You might ask the same about guys that sing bonafide three- or four-part harmony. There's also a difference between playing a "show" and playing three or four long dance sets which affects all the chairs. Again, I think you all are overlooking the degree of difficulty of the part(s) involved. For example, if somebody assigned "Sympathy for the Devil" (yeah, I'm showing my age). How long would each of you have to work to make the song a success? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wheresgrant3 Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 Over and over in this and the other thread, horn players get a pass on the stand thing. Why? I don't know why this is so difficult to understand really? Did we all grow up in the 19th century? If I played horns in a Desi Arnez tribute I'd have a stand in from of me. If I played guitar in a Led Zepplin tribute I would not. It's really about the image and product you represent. Honestly I don't have a problem with bands that use them. I also understand they are not likely to share the same sort of gigs we play. Even if we had a stand somewhere on stage it would have been removed long ago... along with the biege box fan, the coffee table (yes I saw a band use one once), and the desklamp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 You might ask the same about guys that sing bonafide three- or four-part harmony. The Temptations would have looked really silly using music stands, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SeniorBlues Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 The Temptations would have looked really silly using music stands, IMO. Read the whole comment. They weren't doing "factory gig" dance sets of other people's material. Didn't have to play instruments at the same time either. . . . and the toured fairly often, I suspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 Read the whole comment. They weren't doing "factory gig" dance sets of other people's material. Didn't have to play instruments at the same time either. . . . and the toured fairly often, I suspect. I was just making a comment. I don't know if I was even agreeing or disagreeing with you. I have no idea what band you're talking about or if you're even saying that they used stands or not. But it would have totally ruined the look for the Temptations to use stands, don't you agree? Obviously the need for stands is totally gig-dependent. Like Grant said--if you're a Desi Arnaz tribute, sure...the horn players would use stands. And obviously any sort of gig where somebody 'sits in' or otherwise picks-up the gig, stands will probably be needed. Are there times when it is acceptible for backup singers to read music charts and use stands? Sure. But if you're a rock/pop/R&B/country band playing the same 40-50-60 songs every night? Learn the damned songs. It isn't that hard and looks a hell of lot better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rodclement Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 As a singer that depends on the music being there (even if discrete and to the side), I guarantee you that I would rather not use it...it would mean my AADD would be under control, it would mean one less thing to worry about bringing and maintaining for gigs...it would also mean that I would reconsider fronting party bands. As it stands (pun intended) I need the darn thing but I am yet to loose any business or have anyone coment on me using it. We play once a week and get paid anywhere from $200 to $600 per musician (there are two of us) in good venues ranging from bars to coutry clubs so I offer that repertoire and delivery, good equipment, good personality, and timeliness are way more important than a music stand as factors in what make a good or not band. If I didn't have such a demanding regualr job, we could play more so the darn stand is not a hinderance. Boy I wish I didn't need it but...well I do! My personal peeves with musicians in bands: People that are way to loud on stageEgosBad gearNon-professional attitude! I do not care if you do this for fun or as a living, someone is paying you, deliver! Someone else would love to have your gig!Drunks and druggiesMusicians that come to check you out and expect you to call them in for a few songs...every time they see you! GET YOUR OWN GIGS! and my number one issue... Other musicians that always tell you how you can do it better! If you are so good, why are you not playing tonight? Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SeniorBlues Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 But if you're a rock/pop/R&B/country band playing the same 40-50-60 songs every night? Learn the damned songs. It isn't that hard and looks a hell of lot better. If you've been together for a while AND you're gigging regularly AND if the charts aren't that difficult, . . sure. I would guess all three of those conditions are met for most of the guys on this forum. For me, right now, none of those conditions are met . . . . So I've got my book open (even though I play most songs without looking.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 For me, right now, none of those conditions are met . . . . So I've got my book open (even though I play most songs without looking.)And you're a keyboard player. It's a lot easier for us hide the cheat sheets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SeniorBlues Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 And you're a keyboard player. It's a lot easier for us hide the cheat sheets. Yeah, I try to look up and smile every so often . . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kmart Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 Over and over in this and the other thread, horn players get a pass on the stand thing. Why? In a rock-band setting they don't...from me.Here's my personal peeve on that one:I''ve done a big benefit show around Xmas the past 5 years with my side-band, and we add guest musicians, additional players, etc., including a couple horns: usually 2. The sax player has rotated among 2-3 guys over the years. The trumpet has been the same guy each year. We ask them to play the same EXACT 4-5 songs each year, which are by no means that challenging, they have recordings of those songs, and we have them attend a rehearsal ahead of the show to tighten things up too. Without fail, every year, they need to chart the songs again, and they need their music stand (of course on a stage that's over-packed as it is) during the gig.And without fail, the sax player every single year has missed the one bar solo sax lick that happens all by itself in the spotlight with everyone else resting on that bar near the end of one of those songs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarguy19 Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 I'm guessing most bands who play with stands probably drop the ball in 99 other areas as well. I'd love to hear some specific examples. No offense but IMO that's a BS generalization that has no merit. It's like a stereotype...all bands that have someone using a lyric sheet must pay no attention to detail?? I doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarguy19 Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 I more than understand that sentiment... if the masses don't have a problem with it the why should I. And if you are 100% happy with your gig schedule pay and upcoming opportunities then it's a no brainer. I guess the real test (if it's really important) is looking at your market, and the most desired rooms you want to gain entry in... and confirm whether you are playing there. Then ask yourself if you want to be playing there.... and then ask yourself if you envision your band playing that venue with a music stand on stage. It's not just about the music stand... it's about that committment to put on a visually engaging show that attract those desired gigs. All good points...but I guess it's a no brainer for us then! Right now I can't think of a single room that we want to play in, that we've pursued, that we're not in right now. Not to sound cocky, but all it takes for us these days to book a gig is a phone call, a quick look at our website, show schedule, and employer reviews, and we're getting offers. When the date rolls around and we knock it upside the head, they want us back. Music stand and all. Sure there are 2 more casinos in Detroit and a few other cool places we'd like to play...but we haven't tried yet. There simply isn't room on our schedule for any new venues right now. This year we've made our way into at least 3 new rooms that pay great and are amazingly fun gigs to play...we got phone calls the next morning from 2 of the owners saying they loved us and offers for the rest of 2011...not a peep about the stupid stand! These are the gigs that every band at our level wants to play...hands down. The casino gig we landed we actually got by one of their corporate suits catching us playing at another classy club gig. They didn't have an issue with the stand...and now we have a regular monthly gig there....stand and all. It seems as though by your criteria the ole' stand isn't holding us back... I agree fully with what others have said...it's all about subtlety and how you use it. The stand sitting there doesn't have to be the focus of the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members New Trail Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 ... 'Regular people' go to gigs to have fun. Musicians go to gigs to point out flaws..... Exactly! "Regular" people, MOST of them anyway, couldn't care less about music stands, shorts, no shirts, etc., etc., as long as they're having a good time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 EXCEPT that everyone here is a musician except that one chick...according to you yourself...and I could give a crap (for the most part) what over-critical musicians think when they come see us at gigs! 'Regular people' go to gigs to have fun. Musicians go to gigs to point out flaws. But the one chick is pointing out the same flaw. So what do you do? Take a "{censored} you and {censored} her too" attitude. "She's just one person and maybe the ONLY one who thinks that way." That ain't the way to do it. You should look at what you can do to improve what you do, not look to make excuses for stuff that isn't 100% or dismiss people who might point them out. I'd love to hear some specific examples. Post a vid or even some pics of any band using a music stand. I'll probably find a dozen of 'em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 Exactly! "Regular" people, MOST of them anyway, couldn't care less about music stands, shorts, no shirts, etc., etc., as long as they're having a good time! Now THERE'S a recipe for a lifetime of $400 a night gigs if I've EVER seen one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarguy19 Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 Post a vid or even some pics of any band using a music stand. I'll probably find a dozen of 'em. You know why? Because you're a musician and you go to gigs to pick out flaws...just like I said before. I was looking for examples of what you referred to when you said 'that has been your observation' in the past with bands that use music stands. I bet you could just as easily pick out flaws on videos of bands not using stands too. And somebody on here could probably even pick out some dumb minuscule flaw in one of your band's performances too. If you nitpick hard enough, you can always come up with something that isn't 100% perfect, no matter how trivial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TIMKEYS Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 Yep.I think this needs to be mentioned again:It isn't how many people, or even if anyone at all, says "ewwww...stands!" when they see a band with a music stand on stage. It's about the overall impression the look of a music stand gives people. It just doesn't say "rock". Or "committed". And doesn't contribute to a visually engaging show in any way, shape or form. Yup and the same people can overlook pitchy out of key vocals if the singer is jumping around alot. so go figure. In an ideal world everyone would have everything in their memory bank. In the real world you are gonna find guys with charts and a stand. Its prolly more acceptable for musicans in the back line like horn guy, and sit down keyboard rigs etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 Anyways...I agree that if even one person complains about it, it could be fixed. That's true. Who's to say, maybe we'd be playing the Palace by now if I forced our singer to put the stand away a few months ago. Maybe who knows. Well, if it were that easy.... Of course it isn't. But it's just one piece of the BIG puzzle. BUT...I don't consider anything I've said to be making excuses. I guess we can just agree to disagree about how critical the stand is to begin with. As I said in my other post...I'm literally 100% happy with the place my band is in and the direction we're heading. I don't believe one bit that having that music stand on stage is holding us back. The minute we play a high-end room and don't get invited back or something...then I can start to question why...what about our show didn't they like? Was it the stand? I dunno.... Why wait to hit the ceiling before you start looking to improve stuff? And somebody on here could probably even pick out some dumb minuscule flaw in one of your band's performances too. Oh without a doubt! I gotta list a mile long of {censored} that needs to be improved with MY band! Are you kidding? Every gig is about trying to do stuff better than we did it the gig before. But it isn't a "musician nitpicking" attitude that I come from. It comes from really paying attention to the comments and attitudes of the audience. It's really looking hard at "why did this band get this gig or this response while we didn't when we do so many things as well (if not better) then they do?" It comes from paying attention to comments from "normal people" like the girl who posted here and not saying "well, maybe she hates music stands but the 50 people who packed the dance floor didn't care!" You know what, dump the music stand and now you'll have fifty-ONE people on the dance floor and likely a few others who didn't bother to tell you they hate music stands. Because the biggest point is that those 50 people who like you now will STILL like you without it. So what is there to lose by improving small details you KNOW can be improved on? It's not the same thing as "2 people hate Kid Rock but 50 people love it". NOBODY "loves" music stands. It's just a flaw you can, at best, 'get away with'. Yeah, I can play the "yeah but they loved us anyway!" game with our flaws every gig. Doesn't mean that stuff doesn't need improving and that they might not have liked us even MORE if we if took care of that stuff. You don't improve by just hanging your hat on the stuff you can get by with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 Yup and the same people can overlook pitchy out of key vocals if the singer is jumping around alot. so go figure. Big difference: Jumping around alot often contributes to the stage performance. Very often, especially in rock, you make a trade off between stage performance and stellar playing because stage performance is a big part of why the audience responds to a band. When has a music stand ever contributed to a stage performance. It's a DETRACTION, not a PLUS. If this were the symphony, I'd INSIST on everyone using music stands. Because it is ONLY about the music, not the appearance. But we're talking about rock 'n roll, man! 3 Chords and the Truth and all that {censored}. Get out there and ROCK the crowd. Leave your music stand for the junior high choir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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