Members guitarguy19 Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 Lets not forget that the SINGER is in control whether you THINK they are or not ( also see my sig)... That is a joke! There are at least 2 non-expendable people in every band...the front man and the band leader...assuming of course they aren't one in the same. Not everyone is organized and talented enough to book gigs, negotiate and manage money, do web design, marketing and promotions, etc etc. All these things are essential, and having these talents/qualities are as little a dime a dozen as a talented frontman. Ego much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TrickyBoy Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 Aww jeez...not this {censored} again:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: First off let me say to all the music stand naysayers: Do you sing lead >95% of the night? If not, then you have no valid opinion. I realize that statement will put me at odds with a lot of you; even some whose opinion I have grown to respect. BUT --- Until you sing lead the entire night while playing an instrument or two, you have NO IDEA what it takes. You may THINK you know...but you would be wrong! That would be like me telling my doctor how to do his job (I'm not an MD) and then telling him he should be doing it the way I want it done or he'll lose my respect! HA HA!!! The only person (that I know of) in this thread that plays and sings lead for a band (like me) is Austin, and we've had it out over this topic before. After re-reading that thread for a bit ( ) I have nothing to add except that a solo/duo is fine to use a music stand (see my sig) while a full band is unacceptable. I have easily over 1000 songs in my books that I use on solo/duo gigs. The music has never been an issue for me; I'm kind of a savant in that regard. The lyrics to some obscure 70s song that I learned 8 years ago that some dude will tip me $$$ to hear...that is why I need the books on my solo/duo gigs. In either of my 2 band situations, the books are a visible no-no. Having lyric books displayed front-and-center detracts from the show. We will have a book or two on the floor -out of sight- in case we get some obscure request backed by $$$. So to summarize my opinions: 1) If you don't sing lead (or never have), you have an invalid opinion. 2) Solo/Duo --- lyric stand / lyric books OK 3) Group performance --- lyric stand / lyric books NOT OK And a quick note to all the "you would never play in my band if you use a stand" people... Lets not forget that the SINGER is in control whether you THINK they are or not (also see my sig)... It would most certainly be the other way around (because I'm the singer) ergo "you would never play in MY band with those elitist, uniformed opinions" --- guitards are a dime a dozen...singers...are not. A couple of things... First off, I do play guitar and sing - currently about 40% of the songs but previously 100%. That being said, even if I didn't, my opinion is as valid as yours. If I don't like the way it looks onstage, I don't like it. It's like saying that because I don't act my opinions regarding a movie or actor are invalid. It's a ridiculously silly argument. Secondly, music stands/lyric sheets are just like most things in a performance. They can be utilized in a way that they are not a distraction. OR they can be a complete distraction. This is true in a solo/duo setting or with a full band. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarguy19 Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 A couple of things...First off, I do play guitar and sing - currently about 40% of the songs but previously 100%. That being said, even if I didn't, my opinion is as valid as yours. If I don't like the way it looks onstage, I don't like it. It's like saying that because I don't act my opinions regarding a movie or actor are invalid. It's a ridiculously silly argument.Secondly, music stands/lyric sheets are just like most things in a performance. They can be utilized in a way that they are not a distraction. OR they can be a complete distraction. This is true in a solo/duo setting or with a full band. ^^ +1000. Well said Tricky! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chemikool Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 I use my motorola XOOM pad with all my lyrics in there on a propietary stand. It sits about knee height, right besides my monitor, nobody cares if it's there and I seldom look at it but every time someone comes up and asks for an obcscure song we haven't played in 2 years...I can bring it up and deliver it on the spot.I also have AADD and the tought of not having the lyrics there hinders my performance since I get nervous, but most times I never even look at it...The argument for me would be, does it hinder the delivery? It's not the tool but how you use it; the tool itself can help delivery (like in my case) or it can be a crutch as mentioned somewhere about singers standing still reading from a sheet on the floor. I guess if I was in a dinamic rock band that plays in bars, party band, etc. I would have to find a way to tackle it but in my acoustic duo or in wedding bands, it never affected me.One upside of the lyrics on my tablet is that every time someone wants to sing with us (we do that a lot!) they have their prompter ready according to our version of the song so people love it! And for arguments that a music stand inpedes a singer from engaging the crowd, here is a video of one of our gigs...there is a "guest" (girl form the crowd who tipped us, sorry for her screams on the chorus..) singing and the crowd interacting, I guess they don't care much... That is what I'm talking about!!! I'm in the same kinda boat...I'm looking at tablets now for the exact reasons you list!!! That is a joke! There are at least 2 non-expendable people in every band...the front man and the band leader...assuming of course they aren't one in the same. Not everyone is organized and talented enough to book gigs, negotiate and close deals, manage money, etc etc.Ego much? Kid Rock (yea I know...but he's right!!!) says that it isn't bragging if you back it up!If you have expendable people in your band...do you really have a band?I am the front man AND the band leader so your assumption does not hold here.Ego? sure... I also play all the leads, run the sound (it's my PA) and the lights (it's my light show) so where does that fit into your view? hehe...and the music stand is ALWAYS in the trailer if I want it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members melvinspeed Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 It would most certainly be the other way around (because I'm the singer) ergo "you would never play in MY band with those elitist, uniformed opinions" --- guitards are a dime a dozen...singers...are not. So you have no input on how the rest of your band sounds? Only singers critique singers, only guitarists critique guitarists, only drummers critique drummers? Wow. Must be wonderful with no input to listen to but your own? Do you allow your audience to have an opinion on your band? Or do they have to be in a band to have an opinion? Seriously. Your line of thinking is, well... . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chemikool Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 First off, I do play guitar and sing - currently about 40% of the songs but previously 100%. That being said, even if I didn't, my opinion is as valid as yours. If I don't like the way it looks onstage, I don't like it. It's like saying that because I don't act my opinions regarding a movie or actor are invalid. It's a ridiculously silly argument. I agree with you Tricky, but it is not a silly argument...I don't tell the horn players how to do their job. It becomes a slippery slope though, no? AND you passed my "test" because you DID play and sing 100% of the time at some point, so you do understand the unique issues of singing the whole night, which is the crux of the issue of music stands... Secondly, music stands/lyric sheets are just like most things in a performance. They can be utilized in a way that they are not a distraction. OR they can be a complete distraction. This is true in a solo/duo setting or with a full band. Agreed - it is all in how you use it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GuitarPlayerFL Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 My ex-singer (whose new band I'm playing with this weekend only as a favor due to a member shortage) not only has a laptop with lyrics in front of him all night........he continues to remind the audience over the mic that he "forgot the words!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chemikool Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 So you have no input on how the rest of your band sounds? Only singers critique singers, only guitarists critique guitarists, only drummers critique drummers? When did I say that? Wow. Must be wonderful with no input to listen to but your own? When it comes to this, no, I don't need a second opinion; BUT I ALWAYS ask the band and they agree with my decisions 99% of the time. Do you allow your audience to have an opinion on your band? Or do they have to be in a band to have an opinion? They vote with their wallets...and my schedule is full. Does that answer your question? Seriously. Your line of thinking is, well... . So prove me wrong then...your opinion is just as good as mine; as Tricky stated above. My "line of thinking" is culled from decades of being in music, science and business. Right or Wrong you can't argue with the results.Does your boss run every little idea by you? Does your boss even CARE about your opinion? In my bands I'm the boss. A democratic band does not work...Literally and Figuratively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted July 7, 2011 Moderators Share Posted July 7, 2011 ...I don't tell the horn players how to do their job. Um... I do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chemikool Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 I just think these things are far more annoying when it comes to cover bands: 1. Extra pointless harmonies that don't add to the song, or harmonies that are sung wrong or in the wrong place. 2. Bands who don't phrase the vocal melody correctly and it isn't on purpose, it's because their ear sucks. 3. Guitarists who don't play the right parts and haven't replaced the right parts with something interesting. Or play too loud. 4. Bands who stand there and don't put on any sort of show, music stands or not. 5. Lead singers who don't play an instrument who don't make every effort to engage with the crowd. 6. Drummers who can't play the simple beat to "Brick House" correctly or play too damn loud for the venue. Or can't tune their snare. 7. Bassists who can't play the bass part to "Play That Funky Music" correctly (it's not the same as the guitar part...) or whose amps are so loud they drown everything else out. 8. Bands who try to look cool and it's obvious they're uncomfortable with it. 9. Bands who don't understand the message/emotions behind each individual song they're covering and don't either honor it or take it somewhere new. 10. Bands who don't know that mixing the vocals so they're intelligible is a very smart thing and not an afterthought. QFT x10000000 +infinity^infinity My experience has been some or all of the above list is WAAAYYY more important (and overlooked) than a music stand. Extra 2 cents: In my main band, we start with the vocals and set EVERYTHING relative to that volume-wise. So many bands would benefit from starting there rather than the typical guitar/keyboard player who works on "his sound" for 30 minutes rather than the overall goal of making the band sound good...these tards are usually the ones that play TOO DAMN LOUD and ruin it for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Steverino Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 Lyrics on a stand, no. Lyrics in a binder for reference only, sure. If everyone else has put in the effort to learn the music, so should you. If I can learn to play the song on guitar and sing without a lyrics sheet, the vocalist should at least be able to sing it without looking at one. I don't take a new tune in front of an audience until I've learned it on guitar and vocals. When you go to see your favourite band in concert, does the singer have a music stand up front? I've never seen one but I'm sure someone here has. When I'm in a band with a music stand, I feel like I'm at a rehearsal. Music stands are for orchestras. If you want to sing lyrics on the fly, go to a karaoke bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarguy19 Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 Kid Rock (yea I know...but he's right!!!) says that it isn't bragging if you back it up!If you have expendable people in your band...do you really have a band?I am the front man AND the band leader so your assumption does not hold here.Ego? sure... I also play all the leads, run the sound (it's my PA) and the lights (it's my light show) so where does that fit into your view? Expendable was a bad word choice. What I meant is that you can replace some people in bands a hell of a lot easier than others. There are some people, such as the front man and the band leader, that without them there is no band. The fact that you are the front man and the band leader is cool. I actually didn't assume that you didn't do both....I just said that it isn't that way in every band. The "you wouldn't play in my band if you use a stand" guy probably runs the lights, books the gigs, owns the PA, etc etc. Is the singer still in control then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarguy19 Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 Lyrics on a stand, no. Lyrics in a binder for reference only, sure. What if the binder is on a stand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kmart Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 I've played extensively (hundreds of gigs) in two markets (Central Texas and Northeast Florida) in cover-party-wedding-show bands that pretty much all used a music stand at about hip level in the middle of the stage or off to the side, and never got ONE comment from a non-musician about it. Not a comment from a bar owner, sound guy, audience member, server, bartender. It might be because the stand is never the focus and my bands have always been heavily concerned with moving around, engaging the audience and doing a good show.... MIGHT be...? Evidence points to IS BECAUSE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarguy19 Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 In my bands I'm the boss. A democratic band does not work...Literally and Figuratively I disagree. In my band everyone has a say about most things, and we work as much as we want and play great gigs. The things they don't participate in, they don't care to. But us and our families are all friends off stage too and I'd guess your bandmates and you aren't. (just an assumption of course). Ego much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Steverino Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 What if the binder is on a stand? Offstage, sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 I have to be honest: I just don't understand where everyone's finding these phantom audience members who give a {censored} about stands so long as the music is fun. You could insert ANYTHING where you have the word "stands" (including everything in your Top Ten list) into that sentence and it is true. But why does that excuse the use of stands just there might be 10 other things that you might find to be "far more annoying"? There's already been one audience member who posted here who said she didn't like to see 'em. Considering that probably constitutes nearly 100% of all the non-musician forum members....I don't think they are really "phantom". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarguy19 Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 There's already been one audience member who posted here who said she didn't like to see 'em. Considering that probably constitutes nearly 100% of all the non-musician forum members....I don't think they are really "phantom". Yeah but if one person constitutes 100% of the people (who matter) that complain...I don't much care. In the real world...we've had zero people out of the 10,000 that have seen us play say "what's with the stand...?" As long as the masses are happy! If we play a Kid Rock song and 2 people groan and roll their eyes but 50 hit the dance floor......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chemikool Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 A good boss does care what his/her employees think and gains value from peoples' ideas and thoughts. Obviously the boss has the final say, but a good boss takes others' considerations into account. The business can only be better because of it. Please note that I did say I run all of the big decisions by the band, and they agree with me most of the time...which is why they allow me to make most of the decisions...I'm right A LOT more than I am wrong. I'd guess your bandmates and you aren't. (just an assumption of course). Ego much? You would be incorrect in that assumption as well. As a matter of fact we're off for the first time in months this Friday night and we scheduled a cookout, all the kids/wives together with me (there's that ego again eh?) cooking steak/shrimp for everyone. Pushing the ego thing eh? Well I AM a lead singer and lead guitar player... I do have more to say but don't have the time now...I'll be back tonight...that whole work thing getting in the way of music... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarguy19 Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 Pushing the ego thing eh? Can't help it bro. "I'm the boss of my band and democratic bands don't ever work and you're opinion doesn't matter unless you're a lead singer and if you don't sing don't expect to call the shots expect to get sent packing and the singer is always in control of the band whether you think they are or not :blah:" comes off a little egomaniacal! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wardjames Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 In the real world...we've had zero people out of the 10,000 that have seen us play say "what's with the stand...?" Yeah, but does anyone really come up and give you constructive criticism like that? Generally, in my experience, most people come up and say "Oh, you guys are awesome!!!" Guess what, we're not, and we've got a long way to go. If I believed every positive comment we received I'd be wondering why I'm not signed by a major record label right now. I can count on one hand the times we've gotten useful constructive criticism. The reality is that we've all got areas to improve on as musicians and performers. Just because no one has come up to you and said "what's with the stands" doesn't mean no one's thought that. The stands might be minor in the big scheme of things, but those minor things culminate into the difference between your average bar band and the band that's playing the A-list clubs, playing to large audiences, and getting paid well. Since that's the type of group I aspire to be in, all of these little things, however minor, are things I look to improve upon. Our other singer uses a stand, and I'm on his ass about it, because it prevents him from interacting, owning the song, and being the best performer he can be. Again the question is raised. All other things being equal between two bands, which will be perceived as better, the one who uses stands or the one who doesn't? Clearly the latter, even if by a small percentage of the audience (I bet it's a larger percentage of the audience than many would care to admit). Given that, the stands are one thing a band should look to eliminate if they're trying to work their way up. As always, YMMV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 Yeah but if one person constitutes 100% of the people (who matter) that complain...I don't much care. In the real world...we've had zero people out of the 10,000 that have seen us play say "what's with the stand...?" Just because you didn't hear anyone say anything doesn't mean they wouldn't have thought you a better band without them. What are the odds that the one person who constitutes 100% just HAPPENS to be the one person who frequents this forum? I think it better to assume that that one person is representative of a much larger group than just one person. Yeah, it's a small thing. But those small things add up. Why settle for less when you can do more? You really don't think people will better appreciate a product that is the result of 100 small things being taken care of and everyone in the band putting out 100% rather than a band full of people who say "well, no one complained that I heard about so I guess it's OK?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 Yeah, but does anyone really come up and give you constructive criticism like that? Generally, in my experience, most people come up and say "Oh, you guys are awesome!!!" Guess what, we're not, and we've got a long way to go. If I believed every positive comment we received I'd be wondering why I'm not signed by a major record label right now. I can count on one hand the times we've gotten useful constructive criticism.The reality is that we've all got areas to improve on as musicians and performers. Just because no one has come up to you and said "what's with the stands" doesn't mean no one's thought that.The stands might be minor in the big scheme of things, but those minor things culminate into the difference between your average bar band and the band that's playing the A-list clubs, playing to large audiences, and getting paid well. Since that's the type of group I aspire to be in, all of these little things, however minor, are things I look to improve upon. Our other singer uses a stand, and I'm on his ass about it, because it prevents him from interacting, owning the song, and being the best performer he can be.Again the question is raised. All other things being equal between two bands, which will be perceived as better, the one who uses stands or the one who doesn't? Clearly the latter, even if by a small percentage of the audience (I bet it's a larger percentage of the audience than many would care to admit).Given that, the stands are one thing a band should look to eliminate if they're trying to work their way up. As always, YMMV. You beat me to it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarguy19 Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 Just because no one has come up to you and said "what's with the stands" doesn't mean no one's thought that. And it equally doesn't mean that anyone has thought that. We have made our way from local corner bars to a regular casino gig and into lots of the clubs around here that every other band wants to play...all with that stupid stand sitting there. Nobody cares. As long as the band is tight, everyone incl staff and customers are digging the act, and the venues are full and making money hand over fist, it flat out does not matter. If it did then we wouldn't be where we are. For the record I don't like the stand either, but our front man has a hard time memorizing lyrics quickly, and he's a hell of a lot more talented than me, although he'd tell you otherwise, so I'd never get on him about it. I've mentioned it in passing but that's all I'll ever do. It's a non-issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted July 7, 2011 Members Share Posted July 7, 2011 And it equally doesn't mean that anyone has thought that. Except for the evidence to the contrary right here in this thread. We have made our way from local corner bars to a regular casino gig and into lots of the clubs around here that every other band wants to play...all with that stupid stand sitting there. Nobody cares.As long as the band is tight, everyone incl staff and customers are digging the act, and the venues are full and making money hand over fist, it flat out does not matter. If it did then we wouldn't be where we are. And you might even get a bit FURTHER if you attended to the small details instead of making excuses for 'em. You'll never know if people will like your act better or not by changing things up until you actually do it. ...just sayin'.... Like someone just said---you get to a certain level of bands and, unless it's a bandstand-with-horns act, you simply don't see music stands. Is that just a coincidence? I think not. Did they have to wait for someone in the audience to tell them to lose the stands? Probably not as well. Is it JUST about stands? No. It's about being the type of band that is smart enough and works hard enough to attend to the 100 small things. I'm guessing most bands who play with stands probably drop the ball in 99 other areas as well. At least that's been my observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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