What would or wouldn't you do for money?

Potts · August 25, 2012

Pretty much one of the better posts I've read here.

?

I wasn't responding to any of that, I responded to the original question. And often, a response that doesn't meet someone else's standards gets ripped. In fact, everything here seems to turn into a 10 page pissing match arguing over minutiae, inferences, digs and misunderstanding, and when someone points it out, the participants just say something like "what? Hey, we're just having a discussion" or "well, we aren't talking about you, are we?" No, you aren't. You're turning it into a discussion about your own narrow little slice of the market, as usually happens with most discussions here dominated by a few. But only, of course, after it gets beaten into the ground and quite far afield of the OP topic of discussion. It's become comical, really. 10 years ago the place was dominated by original band guys and if you played in a cover band, you were regarded as inferior, a jukebox with a mouth, a sellout. Now, the place is dominated by cover bands, and if you aren't striving to be a 2000 dollar a night show band, you're somehow failing. You can deny it all you want, but as I said, step away for a few months and when you come back it's plain as day.

That doesn't make anyone here a bad guy. It just means when you're caught up in something like a forum, it takes on it's own life and the most forceful and prevalent posters set the tone and, by fiat, the ground rules. Most of the time they aren't aware of it and will tell you it isn't true. But its is. I participate in a couple of other forums, a motorcycle one and a political one, and neither of them are like this at all. They have a different character, and are moderated a bit heavier, so if anyone becomes dominant or pissing matches erupt, the threads are closed or negative comments are removed. I'm not saying I advocate that. I'm saying that forums become what the moderators allow them to become.

I get it. I used to be one of the worst offenders here, which is why I took a breather for 3 months. It's eye opening when you're away for a while and you can't post anything. I dropped in and lurked a few times and sure enough, thread after thread devolved into a nitpicking pissing match between the same 4 or 5 guys. Now I come back and I see nothing has changed at all, and maybe has gotten a little worse, as the same topics are rehashed over and over, looking for one facet of it that hasn't been thoroughly turned inside out and pummeled into dust.

I probably won't be back here much. It's kind of like watching the same movie for the 10th time. I like the characters, and some of the plot lines are great, but the sameness of it gets numbing. When I was gone, I got a lot done- I wrote some songs, produced a 10-song solo CD, produced two concerts at a local theater and did all the work that goes along with it- graphic art, posters, booking, press releases and media interviews, sound reinforcement, and I performed in one. They want me to produce 6 next season. I played several outdoor concerts with the band, and did a lot of solo acoustic gigs. I've been working on creating a network, sort of a co-op, of acoustic solo/duo performers to help each other get work. I have gotten 5 of them booked in other venues, and they're helping me. I'm getting closer to my goal of performing full time and phasing my day job out. I can't help but think my productivity was related to my time away from here! I'll probably hang out some in the solo and duo forum and check in on Cool Jam once in awhile.

Carry on gentlemen, I don't mean to rain on anyone's holiday, just calling it as I see it. As always, YMMV.

tim_7string · August 25, 2012

I really don't recall ever replying to threads that don't apply to me. I'm not jumping into the "what cool blues songs can I learn next?" threads and telling people "hey---drop the blues and learn something else entirely! The blues sucks!" "Jazz??? Why would you wanna play jazz??? It's so booooring!" I'm not the one hanging out in threads that pretty clearly don't apply to them and declaring I'm so much 'better' than those guys because I've chosen a different route or because I personally like something else.

It's ironic that you are taking the comment literally and then chastise ME for taking things literally in the next section below. I don't recall you going into threads saying "that sucks, man" either. Not in that specific way. But you DO comment often by saying something like, "well, if bands keep doing that, it's no wonder they are only playing the local dive or to their friends." Snide asides like that...yeah, those are comments towards bands that don't apply to you.

Just because some bands play rock (or classic rock, playing in bars like your band did until just recently) doesn't mean they should all go the route that Grant or you or Mike went. Not every classic rock band needs to change over to Top 40 pop, add chicks, etc. And not every classic rock band is a tired, old, boring to look at, worn out horse that should have been put down years ago either. The perception that most if not all ARE like that is a definite prejudice that I see with you. Maybe it's incorrect, but it certainly appears to fit you. Maybe in your area, it IS like that. There are certainly a couple of bands like that out here too. But there are some darn good ones as well, so I don't think of ALL classic rock bands as this decrepit old thing that should be fixed.

No one has ever suggested you add some dancing girls, Tim. Or that anyone add dancing girls. The above band and clip was merely provided as an EXAMPLE of what ONE BAND has done to increase the value of their otherwise very typical classic-rock format. The idea was that people maybe start thinking outside the box a bit. Not take it as direct command that THEY do EXACTLY THAT for THEIR band.

I know that. I'm just telling you that in that particular case, it isn't something I feel compelled to do for our group. It's one option that I feel wouldn't work for us like it might work for others.

Sheesh! No WONDER so many bands are lame if so many people can only be so goddamned LITERAL all the time.

If my being 'literal' means I'm 'lame' TO YOU, I guess I don't really care. I'm happy with where my band is going and I felt like giving my opinion about why I wouldn't go that route.

I tried out many different approaches in many different bands, including doing things for the money (backing a female country singer), playing a different role (playing bass guitar and keyboards as a hired gun/bandmember in that band rather than as the bandleader singing and playing guitar) and adapting a different approach in environments I wasn't used to performing in (casinos). I pondered the idea of changing up my game BEFORE I came to this board and saw suggestions by people like yourself that 'hmmm, maybe I should just lay back and do this other thing, then greater success will come to me.'

What I found instead is that I was not doing anything that was making me happy. I just did it so I could tell people I was making a living as a professional musician. And because I wasn't happy doing it, the success part wasn't fulfilling for me anyway. I was making more money and had more prestige, but it was in a world I didn't belong in.

After a while, I got tired of it, decided to focus more on what I like to do and I'm 10x happier for it. The environment can change or slowly grow or even slow down a bit, but as long as I am happy doing the things I feel I need to do to be happy (leading the band, fronting it, playing rock songs I enjoy), I won't really care. It starts there for me. If we can up our game along the way where these things are still met, I'm all for that.

tim_7string · August 25, 2012

Pretty much one of the better posts I've read here.

Agreed.

Vito Corleone · August 25, 2012

My God! That's beautiful! Is that what you basically wake up to everyday?

I dont have lakeview property, but that's basically right down the street

BlueStrat · August 25, 2012

I really don't recall ever replying to threads that don't apply to me.

Haven't I seen you over in the solo/duo forum?:poke:

Vito Corleone · August 25, 2012

Haven't I seen you over in the solo/duo forum?:poke:

Sure. Have I ever posted in that forum telling anyone what they do is wrong, isn't what I personally like or applying "band" logic to what somebody is trying to do in a solo or duo?

modulusman · August 25, 2012

I have been told by a moderator not to post in the Solo/duo forum. Apparently my PA advice isn't relevant and I offend a long term poster.

TIMKEYS · August 25, 2012

I have been told by a moderator not to post in the Solo/duo forum. Apparently my PA advice isn't relevant and I offend a long term poster.

Ya think?

BlueStrat · August 25, 2012

Sure. Have I ever posted in that forum telling anyone what they do is wrong, isn't what I personally like or applying "band" logic to what somebody is trying to do in a solo or duo?

I don't know, but's not neither here not there. You said you never post in threads that aren't relevant to you. Since you don't play in a solo or duo, I would guess that would apply to about all of them over there.

Vito Corleone · August 25, 2012

I don't know, but's not neither here not there. You said you never post in threads that aren't relevant to you. Since you don't play in a solo or duo, I would guess that would apply to about all of them over there.

Not every topic discussed over there is duo specific

Potts · August 25, 2012

I'd have to say that you NEED to continue posting in the solo/duo forum. I don't think any of these forums should be specific to what any of us do. I think all of us have something valuable to share.

Ya know... years ago before reverb nation, facebook and all the other social networking sites, I developed a pretty impressive web site. It was called buffalomusic.net (Buffalo Musicians Resource) and had tons of information on there. Not only did it have a great message board, it had a main page daily calendar that users had access to. My physical mailbox was jammed full of CD's on a weekly basis and I posted selected original songs on a site-wide jukebox. I developed EPT's for users and had a resource library of every possible publication that anyone could ever want. It was fairly successful and it was all free. I did it because I had a little bit of recording and playing out experience that I wanted to share like the people that taught me the "business".

What I'm getting at is why can't people back off just a little and share what they know without the ego? This place is loaded with talented people and a bunch of pretty cool folks too. In my short time here I've also noticed that there's a lot of stress too.

TrickyBoy · August 25, 2012

Maybe I have a weird perception (ok, actually I definitely have a weird perception), but what's the point in spending your time on a forum like this if your goal isn't to better your band? I mean, I get that David's ideas are one of many that have worked, but the truth is that they have worked for him, and he shares that. Grant does the same thing, as do many others.

IDK, but I value my time and when it comes to internet forums, I'm only going to spend time in one if I get something from it. (and honestly, I haven't been spending a lot of time here lately) Much of what lots of people post here is redundant, but at least most of David's post focus on what that he thinks you can better your band. And for me this one is a timely conversation, as here in Louisiana (where it's still realistic to make $500+ a person per night as a club band), the idea of "creating a look" is forefront in a lot of bands' minds.

I just don't get the attitude of "well not everyone wants to make their band better". What's the point of being here? Maybe we should start a thread about ways to keep your band mediocre.

tlbonehead · August 25, 2012

Maybe I have a weird perception (ok, actually I definitely have a weird perception), but what's the point in spending your time on a forum like this if your goal isn't to better your band? I mean, I get that David's ideas are one of many that have worked, but the truth is that they have worked for him, and he shares that. Grant does the same thing, as do many others.

IDK, but I value my time and when it comes to internet forums, I'm only going to spend time in one if I get something from it. (and honestly, I haven't been spending a lot of time here lately) Much of what lots of people post here is redundant, but at least most of David's post focus on what that he thinks you can better your band. And for me this one is a timely conversation, as here in Louisiana (where it's still realistic to make $500+ a person per night as a club band), the idea of "creating a look" is forefront in a lot of bands' minds.

I just don't get the attitude of "well not everyone wants to make their band better

". What's the point of being here? Maybe we should start a thread about ways to keep your band mediocre.

I don't think is that so much as all the different possible definitions of "better".

TIMKEYS · August 25, 2012

Maybe I have a weird perception (ok, actually I definitely have a weird perception), but what's the point in spending your time on a forum like this if your goal isn't to better your band? I mean, I get that David's ideas are one of many that have worked, but the truth is that they have worked for him, and he shares that. Grant does the same thing, as do many others.

IDK, but I value my time and when it comes to internet forums, I'm only going to spend time in one if I get something from it. (and honestly, I haven't been spending a lot of time here lately) Much of what lots of people post here is redundant, but at least most of David's post focus on what that he thinks you can better your band. And for me this one is a timely conversation, as here in Louisiana (where it's still realistic to make $500+ a person per night as a club band), the idea of "creating a look" is forefront in a lot of bands' minds.

I just don't get the attitude of "well not everyone wants to make their band better". What's the point of being here? Maybe we should start a thread about ways to keep your band mediocre.

Most of what makes a band better is playing a lot as a band. gigging is way more effective than spending time in the garage. Working up the feeding chain tends to for the most part take care of itself the more experience a band has at live shows. I dont see it as just finding the right magic bullet if you have good talent.

EightString · August 25, 2012

Trickyboy, I think your assumption about some people not wanting to make their band better is off the mark. Maybe they just don't want to make their bands "better" in the manner proposed by the OP.

After some thought on the topic, I later in this thread made my case that the sort of gimmicks proposed would actually hurt my rapport with my particular audiences... People who are booking and listening to me NOW, at THIS stage of my career, such as it is.

So I choose to continue to focus on expanding my repertoire, improving my playing and singing, and NOT alienating a growing base of people who enjoy my more intimate and non-gimmicky show. That's how I make MY show better: constantly striving to deliver the best MUSIC that I am capable of playing and singing.

Some acts are fine with just "getting by" on the music front, and pimping out the rest with some T&A and gimmicks. That is not me.

So I disagree with guido's proposed enhancements FOR ME, and specifically, doing anything like what was in that video would be a severe detriment to my show, not an improvement. I have even changed my mind about the classier "Vegas" showgirls and gimmicks because that would be a distraction from what I currently do best.

kmart · August 25, 2012

Maybe we should start a thread about ways to keep your band mediocre.

Please don't.

There are plenty of those here already; usually the authors just aren't aware of it.

TrickyBoy · August 25, 2012

Trickyboy, I think your assumption about some people not wanting to make their band better is off the mark. Maybe they just don't want to make their bands "better" in the manner proposed by the OP.

After some thought on the topic, I later in this thread made my case that the sort of gimmicks proposed would actually hurt my rapport with my particular audiences... People who are booking and listening to me NOW, at THIS stage of my career, such as it is.

So I choose to continue to focus on expanding my repertoire, improving my playing and singing, and NOT alienating a growing base of people who enjoy my more intimate and non-gimmicky show. That's how I make MY show better: constantly striving to deliver the best MUSIC that I am capable of playing and singing.

Some acts are fine with just "getting by" on the music front, and pimping out the rest with some T&A and gimmicks. That is not me.

So I disagree with guido's proposed enhancements FOR ME, and specifically, doing anything like what was in that video would be a severe detriment to my show, not an improvement. I have even changed my mind about the classier "Vegas" showgirls and gimmicks because that would be a distraction from what I currently do best.

I've always said that the key to being successful is finding what you do bet and concentrating on that. There's a million ways to skin a cat, and the band in the original post is one of them (actually as I said earlier, I saw nothing wrong with their gimmick - It's their execution that's lacking. Cam across to me like they were trying to polish a turd).

But I take exception with the idea that a band that utilizes a "gimmick" of some sort to get an edge somehow is not concentrating on the music. You can do both, excel at the musical aspect of the show and still bring the "glitz", and the bands that I see making the large money are the ones that do both. Find and refine an "image" and match that with great musical execution.

KeysBear · August 25, 2012

geez, if we're being so specific most places I play there technically is no backstage so I guess I should find a more relevant place to post..... is there an in the corner behind the pool table forum?

tim_7string · August 26, 2012

Maybe I have a weird perception (ok, actually I definitely have a weird perception), but what's the point in spending your time on a forum like this if your goal isn't to better your band? I mean, I get that David's ideas are one of many that have worked, but the truth is that they have worked for him, and he shares that. Grant does the same thing, as do many others.

IDK, but I value my time and when it comes to internet forums, I'm only going to spend time in one if I get something from it. (and honestly, I haven't been spending a lot of time here lately) Much of what lots of people post here is redundant, but at least most of David's post focus on what that he thinks you can better your band. And for me this one is a timely conversation, as here in Louisiana (where it's still realistic to make $500+ a person per night as a club band), the idea of "creating a look" is forefront in a lot of bands' minds.

I just don't get the attitude of "well not everyone wants to make their band better". What's the point of being here? Maybe we should start a thread about ways to keep your band mediocre.

Glad that what he posts speaks to you. As tlbonehead said, there are many ways to make your band better. But y'know, this board isn't made specifically to make your band better. You might come here for that. I don't. I come here to share experiences and read about others' experiences. If you don't want to do that, cool. I don't feel what I do is wrong and when there is something here that is posted that I can use to improve my band (should I wish to do so), I do.

StratGuy22 · August 26, 2012

It's a good place to hear what's working, what's not working etc.

TIMKEYS · August 26, 2012

It's a good place to hear what's working, what's not working etc.

Yes and no. What works in one local may not work in another. Demographics and region have a lot to do with it. Generally you can information that is helpful.

TIMKEYS · August 26, 2012

Glad that what he posts speaks to you. As tlbonehead said, there are many ways to make your band better. But y'know, this board isn't made specifically to make your band better. You might come here for that. I don't. I come here to share experiences and read about others' experiences. If you don't want to do that, cool. I don't feel what I do is wrong and when there is something here that is posted that I can use to improve my band (should I wish to do so), I do.

One guys better might be anothers guys too much junk to drag around.

Lee Knight · August 26, 2012