What are some ways to improve the "value" of your band?

[Lee Knight]

And by the way, they need subs.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by Lee Knight

But a great curb appeal goes a long way. And all the freebie clean ups go a long way. And sometimes the question they are asking is not really the questions they should be asking. And it takes jerks like me sometimes to point that out. It may not be the fun answer, but it might be the more profitable one, depending. I'm not trying to tell you your game, that's yours and I don't know that world but just a little. But sometimes the answer is a little less obvious.

 

True. But in this case, while the 'freebie' stuff was good advice, the other stuff is also an obvious need. A band playing rock covers wants to compete in the club circuit with higher paid bands? Yeah, if you don't have any low end in your mix, you're probably {censored}ed. I'm not going to tell somebody to remodel a kitchen when it already looks great. Because there would be no 'value added' to the money spent. But if the kitchen still has Harvest Gold appliances? Yeah, pay somebody to upgrade that sucker WHILE you're out mowing the lawn.

Again, I have NO problem with your advice. Just that you take such a harsh stance about prioritization when there's no real need to approach it that way.

 

So, there are a lot of guys here doing well in the clubs. And that road has entailed getting a kick ass PA. Yeah, of course. But maybe jumping on that "fix" is not really what the issue in question, the OP's issue, requires right now. For me, I see a really solid band ready to have it all start falling into place. I'd hate for that group to be distracted right now... by learning to set up subs and use them correctly. But like I said, that's me. And my old man status has taught me to try and look for the very real obstacles. Not the ones I think I have at first glance. But the ones I'll be able to reap the rewards of overcoming for a very long time, by tackling them now. I am an old guy

 

As one old guy to another, I like to get the easy stuff out of the way first. If the band needs to practice, then we need to practice. Come back in a year and we'll hopefully be tighter. But there's no low-end in our not-so-tight mix and I've got $1000 sitting in the band coffers? Well, there's really no excuse for that.

[Potts]

I can't help thinking that this thread is just so strange to me. Most bands up here rent PA/Lights. And we have some of the best sound guys here for $300 or less-usually less. I think we had this topic before and people told me I was nuts. It's true though. There aren't too many shows that you'd have as a band where you'd have to spend anymore than that. I was talking to the engineer in the studio the other day and he was telling me he has two rigs- the "A" rig for $300 and two guys and the "B" rig for $150 with one guy.

[SeniorBlues]

 

Originally Posted by Potts

I can't help thinking that this thread is just so strange to me. Most bands up here rent PA/Lights. And we have some of the best sound guys here for $300 or less-usually less. I think we had this topic before and people told me I was nuts. It's true though. There aren't too many shows that you'd have as a band where you'd have to spend anymore than that. I was talking to the engineer in the studio the other day and he was telling me he has two rigs- the "A" rig for $300 and two guys and the "B" rig for $150 with one guy.

 

FWIW, this is the direction we're going, at least for bigger gigs.

[roamingbard13]

(Swore I wasn't going to post in this thread again...although it's amusing and helpful to see the different people going back and forth. Although it hasn't necessary been comfortable, I may even post video from our next gig for y'all to see that I am reading and listening... (provided sound, big stage))

If I could get sound for anywhere near that price here, our PA would stay in our practice area.

 

Originally Posted by Potts

I can't help thinking that this thread is just so strange to me. Most bands up here rent PA/Lights. And we have some of the best sound guys here for $300 or less-usually less. I think we had this topic before and people told me I was nuts. It's true though. There aren't too many shows that you'd have as a band where you'd have to spend anymore than that. I was talking to the engineer in the studio the other day and he was telling me he has two rigs- the "A" rig for $300 and two guys and the "B" rig for $150 with one guy.

 

[kmart]

 

Originally Posted by roamingbard13

(Swore I wasn't going to post in this thread again...although it's amusing and helpful to see the different people going back and forth. Although it hasn't necessary been comfortable, I may even post video from our next gig for y'all to see that I am reading and listening... (provided sound, big stage))

If I could get sound for anywhere near that price here, our PA would stay in our practice area.

 

Ditto.

$300 will get you:

An engineer to cart, set-up and run the gear for the evening, and a mediocre to maybe moderately decent size/power PA, best suitable for smaller rooms, plus maybe a couple wedges, all on one mix. Lights are extra.

$150 will get you a pair of speakers on sticks and a 6 channel powered head, sans engineer, and likely sans delivery.

[Potts]

Originally Posted by kmart

Ditto.
$300 will get you:
An engineer to cart, set-up and run the gear for the evening, and a mediocre to maybe moderately decent size/power PA, best suitable for smaller rooms, plus maybe a couple wedges, all on one mix. Lights are extra.
$150 will get you a pair of speakers on sticks and a 6 channel powered head, sans engineer, and likely sans delivery.

That sucks...Where you at?

[kmart]

 

Originally Posted by Potts

That sucks...Where you at?

 

Civilization

[modulusman]

 

Originally Posted by Potts

I can't help thinking that this thread is just so strange to me. Most bands up here rent PA/Lights. And we have some of the best sound guys here for $300 or less-usually less. I think we had this topic before and people told me I was nuts. It's true though. There aren't too many shows that you'd have as a band where you'd have to spend anymore than that. I was talking to the engineer in the studio the other day and he was telling me he has two rigs- the "A" rig for $300 and two guys and the "B" rig for $150 with one guy.

 

Just curious as too what size and quality of PA. I would think that more urban areas would be inclined to have house sound. If for no other reason than parking availability for loading in gear. Out in the sticks where I live most bands own a PA or hire a sound guy with gear. That being said alot of the good bands around here have way better PA gear on average than what I see here on the forum.

[Lee Knight]

And of course that all raises some very good points. For me and my ilk, there has always been a few guys running very good sound for pretty respectable prices. But, I am reminded, that things are different in different parts of this country and the world. If it is mandatory that to have a good PA system for a decent price you must buy your own, then so be it. But, I would still suspect, that through the network there are guys that will provide for a decent price. As always, I may be very, very wrong.

Be that as it may, we usually had our own PA too. And what a pain in the ass that is and was. Which is why in retrospect I love the idea of hiring it out and concentrating on the nuts and bolts of being a great performing band. The eras that I did that it was wonderful.

[SpaceNorman]

Around here - it's $100 for what the sound guys call a "briefcase gig" (that's where they come out and run OUR gear). Actually renting a real PA (i.e., 16+ channels, subs, mains, 4-6 monitor wedges) AND a sound guy to run it ... much more than that. A $300 sound rental means dealing with VERY low end gear - AND most likely, a sound "engineer" who's competency is questionable.

As far as "house sound" goes - I haven't seen a "house system" in any of the venues I play in more than 20 years. That's just not how things work in the market that I play in.

[kmart]

 

Originally Posted by SpaceNorman

Around here - it's $100 for what the sound guys call a "briefcase gig" (that's where they come out and run OUR gear). Actually renting a real PA (i.e., 16+ channels, subs, mains, 4-6 monitor wedges) AND a sound guy to run it ... much more than that. A $300 sound rental means dealing with VERY low end gear - AND most likely, a sound "engineer" who's competency is questionable.

As far as "house sound" goes - I haven't seen a "house system" in any of the venues I play in more than 20 years. That's just not how things work in the market that I play in.

 

This, exactly.

A good friend who is an excellent and in-demand engineer gives us a break on pricing to mix on provided systems...be they house or our own. And that price is $100.

[Lee Knight]

The way we did it was many-fold. We hired a company at times. We teamed up with a guy who got all our gigs for a better deal. And... we had a guy who would set up a full system, including kick ass subs, mids, and radial horns or lens, and I would run it from stage. In one circumstance, I would run a Rane Monitor Mixer as our monitors and as a Main Mix Out. That is how I got the audio bug and went on to study and specialize.

But I know that as fly by night as some of these guys are, they are very open to steady work. Deals can be made. We did. In many different incarnations and permutations. A lot of very good guys are most likely sitting home Fri and Sat with a garage full of gear. And the skills to run it well.

I'm not blind to the fact that my old world is not the world today. And still... I know that just because a good guy with a good system says one thing, that does not mean it has to be that way. He just hasn't thought of the deal you're going to propose to him yet.

[SpaceNorman]

 

Originally Posted by Lee Knight

The way we did it was many-fold. We hired a company at times. We teamed up with a guy who got all our gigs for a better deal. And... we had a guy who would set up a full system, including kick ass subs, mids, and radial horns or lens, and I would run it from stage. In one circumstance, I would run a Rane Monitor Mixer as our monitors and as a Main Mix Out. That is how I got the audio bug and went on to study and specialize.

But I know that as fly by night as some of these guys are, they are very open to steady work. Deals can be made. We did. In many different incarnations and permutations. A lot of very good guys are most likely sitting home Fri and Sat with a garage full of gear. And the skills to run it well.

I'm not blind to the fact that my old world is not the world today. And still... I know that just because a good guy with a good system says one thing, that does not mean it has to be that way. He just hasn't thought of the deal you're going to propose to him yet.

 

We hired out sound back during my college band days (early '80s). We were steadily working Top 40 act (typically working a 4-6 night "sit down" at a different venue each week - roughly 45 weeks a year). We worked out an arrangement with a small PA provider in the Lansing MI area. He needed some steady cash flow in between his larger gigs ... AND a mechanism for keeping his techs busy / getting new techs some experience. We were responsible for transport and schlepping (tech handled PA setup and SE duties during the gig). We were also responsible for paying the SE a share.

It was a good arrangement at the time - we were playing large college bars (300+ seat venues). The arrangement got us a 24 channel Soundcraft board, Crown Power, real subs loaded with pro-quality JBL components, custom tops with JBL horn drives and JBL 12" speakers, etc. Most importantly - the sound techs were real SE types (not just some longhair who pretended he liked hanging out around sound toys. The gear we were using was part of a much larger system that was used around the Lansing area at the time for national acts playing smaller venues (Chick Corea, Ray Charles, B.B. King, Toots and the Maytals, The Cure, The Romantics were just some of the names I recall having used the "BIG" system). We got to use fantastic gear that most bar bands could only dream of having - complete with real pro SE types running the system.

Although we used the gear constantly, we had zero financial interest in the gear - and zero long term commitments. For a bunch of college students with no credit - it was a good arrangement. We paid through the teeth for it ... taking a HUGE hit in terms of our own "take home" pay - but given our options, it was the best arrangement we could muster at the time.

Now that I'm not working with anywhere near that frequency, working smaller venues - I haven't found any sound providers with whom such an arrangement would be possible today.

[Vito Corleone]

I've always owned gear. I hate renting much of anything since I rarely see the value in it unless it's like a once-a-year deal or something.

In my first band while still in HS back in the 70s we had our own PA (pair of Peavey SP1s, a CS 800 and a 12 channel Peavey mixer. We thought we were the {censored}! lol!) but we rented out the light show. Even though many of our shows involved travelling a pretty good distance, the guy had a killer light system for back then and travelled with us and did all the work for what was probably $100 back then? Our gig fees were in the $400-800 range playing HS dances. I can only imagine how much we must of sucked, being young kids ourselves and just learning our instruments. But we made up for it with youthful energy and a good light show. We had a fog machine! A strobe light! A mirror ball! Haha! I learned a lot back then including that the best way to learn is on the job. I have friends from that era who STILL haven't gotten out of the basement. Sad, really.

After that it was pretty much always carrying our lights and sound because the tours got wider and the clubs rarely had much in the way of lights and sound. Pretty much ever band doing those big-rock-club circuits in the 80s were carrying their own gear and small road crew. We had 3 guys just for the lights and sound and setting up the backline.

What I'm doing now? We'd have to rent out a system every show. That seems like much more of a hassle to me, but maybe that's just largely a function of how I've always done things.

[modulusman]

 

Originally Posted by guido61

I've always owned gear. I hate renting much of anything since I rarely see the value in it unless it's like a once-a-year deal or something.

In my first band while still in HS back in the 70s we had our own PA (pair of Peavey SP1s, a CS 800 and a 12 channel Peavey mixer. We thought we were the {censored}! lol!) but we rented out the light show. Even though many of our shows involved travelling a pretty good distance, the guy had a killer light system for back then and travelled with us and did all the work for what was probably $100 back then? Our gig fees were in the $400-800 range playing HS dances. I can only imagine how much we must of sucked, being young kids ourselves and just learning our instruments. But we made up for it with youthful energy and a good light show. We had a fog machine! A strobe light! A mirror ball! Haha! I learned a lot back then including that the best way to learn is on the job. I have friends from that era who STILL haven't gotten out of the basement. Sad, really.

After that it was pretty much always carrying our lights and sound because the tours got wider and the clubs rarely had much in the way of lights and sound. Pretty much ever band doing those big-rock-club circuits in the 80s were carrying their own gear and small road crew. We had 3 guys just for the lights and sound and setting up the backline.

What I'm doing now? We'd have to rent out a system every show. That seems like much more of a hassle to me, but maybe that's just largely a function of how I've always done things.

 

Pretty much the same in the Northwest during the 80s. The band I was in went to Alaska for a few years we had a soundman and light tech. We Were using a Peavey 16 channel board and some Peavey and sunn PA cabs. We had about a dozen lights. We kicked ass in our first stop in Ketchikan and had our original 6 week booking ext by 3 weeks. We then went to Anchorage to play the biggest bar I have ever played. We were fired after 2 weeks because our PA couldn't cut it. I think that is the reason I'm so anal about PA now. Anyway within in a year we had bought about $25,000.00 of new PA and lighting and were able to get higher paying jobs because of it. In about a years time we went from $1800.00 and rooms a week to $4200.00 with rooms and one meal a day.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Originally Posted by modulusman

Pretty much the same in the Northwest during the 80s. The band I was in went to Alaska for a few years we had a soundman and light tech. We Were using a Peavey 16 channel board and some Peavey and sunn PA cabs. We had about a dozen lights. We kicked ass in our first stop in Ketchikan and had our original 6 week booking ext by 3 weeks. We then went to Anchorage to play the biggest bar I have ever played. We were fired after 2 weeks because our PA couldn't cut it. I think that is the reason I'm so anal about PA now. Anyway within in a year we had bought about $25,000.00 of new PA and lighting and were able to get higher paying jobs because of it. In about a years time we went from $1800.00 and rooms a week to $4200.00 with rooms and one meal a day.

 

Yeah, in those days you had to have the gear to get the gigs. My 70s Peavey system never would have cut it in the 80s. Then we had a 4-way Yamaha system with 2 dual-15" subs and a 24-channel Yamaha mixer. Don't remember the amps we used. And we carried a ton of lights. LOTS of gear.

Don't have much from those days, but here's an old postcard a club in Tempe, AZ used in 1984 with us in their pics. Can barely see the band through all the lights and fog in the bottom right pic.

[SpaceNorman]

 

Originally Posted by guido61

I hate renting much of anything since I rarely see the value in it unless it's like a once-a-year deal or something.

 

I'm happy using the PA I own for everything we play except the large beer tent venues. The gear we have is fine for any of the club venues we play - and - sufficient for the wedding stuff we do (where it may not be large enough to fill the room ... but adequate to cover the dance floor well even if it doesn't fill the room to "bar standards"). However, it doesn't have the balls needed to do the beer tent venues right. Worse, the beer tent venues are a bitch to mix from stage! It's a wild assed guess at best. Let to my own devices - I'd happily hire out sound for the beer tent venues if I could get venue appropriate system and a competent sound guy for a price that didn't kill me. Unfortunately, the sound providers I've talked to have either offered me gear that didn't represent a significant improvement to what I already own ... or offered great equipment at a price that would have killed the deal.

[Vito Corleone]

Speaking of subs---the pair of JBL PRX 518S's have served us well but haven't really cut it in larger venues. My plan for a long time has been to look for a 2nd used pair and use 'em when we need 'em. But haven't found any. Last week we did a wedding in a big ballroom with well over 500 guests. No way our subs would have cut it. Luckily, we shared the gig with a DJ and as soon as we walked in to set up he offered to let us share his PRX 625s over 618XLFs. Damn! Those things blew the 518s out of the water. They thumped and filled that entire room with ease. So no more waiting. The 518s are up for sale and as soon as they go we're getting a pair of the 618s. Well worth the price difference. Pretty much the same footprint and for smaller gigs, we can always turn 'em down.

[modulusman]

 

Originally Posted by guido61

Speaking of subs---the pair of JBL PRX 518S's have served us well but haven't really cut it in larger venues. My plan for a long time has been to look for a 2nd used pair and use 'em when we need 'em. But haven't found any. Last week we did a wedding in a big ballroom with well over 500 guests. No way our subs would have cut it. Luckily, we shared the gig with a DJ and as soon as we walked in to set up he offered to let us share his PRX 625s over 618XLFs. Damn! Those things blew the 518s out of the water. They thumped and filled that entire room with ease. So no more waiting. The 518s are up for sale and as soon as they go we're getting a pair of the 618s. Well worth the price difference. Pretty much the same footprint and for smaller gigs, we can always turn 'em down.

 

If I was in the market for some new subs the 618xlfs would be my choice. I think you should save your money and practice more though.

[Potts]

People don't consider it renting gear around here. It's simply just getting sound for the night. We have an insane amount of talented engineers in our area and they all have giant systems that they'll roll out for a fair price which is normally around $200-$250. The following pics are standard anytime you work with any of the guys around here. They all run FOH or monitor mixes for all the stuff that comes through here too. Buffalo is a great place to be a musician. These companies will lug this stuff out and have as much or more pride in what they do as what we do. No..not briefcase sound or speakers on a stick. Grant will tell ya- I'm sure he remembers.

For my buds 4 piece band at a local patio bar...


Right around the corner from my house


One of the best sound guys around...

[Lee Knight]

 

Originally Posted by modulusman

If I was in the market for some new subs the 618xlfs would be my choice. I think you should save your money and practice more though.

 

Uh-hee-unk

[jw10]

After reevaluating, i think for a lot of bands the answer is draw.

Depends on your band though

[StratGuy22]

Here's my newest upgrade....

8 -Blizzard 3NX

4 - Intimidator 1.0

6 - Pinspot 360's

4 - Blizzard Fab5's to light the band

DMXIS

It's maiden flight is NYE.

After that it will be added into my soundguy services for a price.

Oh yeah, learned Go Your Own Way last night. Practice tomorrow to nail down the harmonies, & some last minute work before NYE.

[wades_keys]

 

Originally Posted by SpaceNorman

I find that pulling a song back into rehearsal is usually a judgement call that needs to distinquish whether the issue is with an individual is struggling with their part individually (because they haven't invested the personal practice to play the troubled passage consistently) - or truly one that requires rework. I'm good with pulling tunes back if it truly requires rework ... but prefer to put the bug up the ass of whoever needs to get their stuff straight to fix it. I absolutely HATE it when an anal bandmate insists we waste EVERYBODY's time revisiting a tune simply because one person on stage had a rough go at it at the last gig. Differentiating between a clam thrown during somebody's rough night - and a real problem with how the band has structured a tune requires wisdom - and that is often something that can sometime be in short supply.

 

That's a great point.

Mistakes happen.

But bad habits: making the same mistakes....that should be recognized and dealt with by either getting it locked down tight in rehearsal or dropping the tune.