playing ALONE

[Bob Dey]

PT Barnum would be proud! You can fool some of the people some of the time. Show business as usual.

[Piano Whore]

Shaster, Bob Dey, 8-string, leftyjay and others that use some kind of tracks- I think you guys are great!thu: Definitely have my respect as players. And I fully understand about not wanting to split the $$, about not having to depend on flaky musicians, and about how it may not be worth the hassle to rehearse with a band.

But having said that, isn't it a treat for any of you to get to do that (play with a good band), at least, on occasion? Doesn't playing with other GOOD, supportive, interactive players hit some kind of spot that doesn't get "hit" when you play to tracks? Or has it been so long you don't remember what it's like? Just curious...

[Potts]

 

Originally Posted by Piano Whore

But having said that, isn't it a treat for any of you to get to do that (play with a good band), at least, on occasion? Doesn't playing with other GOOD, supportive, interactive players hit some kind of spot that doesn't get "hit" when you play to tracks? Or has it been so long you don't remember what it's like? Just curious...

 

Of course! I absolutely miss the interaction- but it is what is. This is my job so I have to deal with it. The problem that I have, and I wouldn't be surprised if other solo guys were like me, is that if I were in a full band it would have to be MY band. I'd have to make 99% of all the calls including setlist, arrangements and everything else. Sure it sounds arrogant but I'd have a killer band. I've found that people want to contribute too much to the decisions in a band instead of just playing their part and knowing that some are more experienced to lead.

[Bajazz]

I think that anyyone really understanding the difference between playing along to a recording and doing all the work yourself would agree that tracks are lame.

Especially if they are to understand all the hours of hard work put into practice, learning the instruments and technique AND the job of performing it live at a show vs pressing play and jamming along.

Yes, I know a small percentage of you put hours of recording into the tracks, but the moments you press play it is still just as lame! It's just a better quality, you still ain't playing it! And Yes I know some of you can play instruments live on top of the recording, but lot's of karaoke singers are good singers too: It just ain't live music until the music coming out of the speakers are performed by live human beings.

I understand people giving up on the work of performing and letting a machine do it when they can get the cash and the gigs. But I still thinks it is lame and I am always letting people know that. And whenever I can I preach my religion of being 100% live.

However if someone was open about it and let the audience know who the members of the "band" is and told them that they played over a recorded track, I would respect it. But as far as I have experienced, that have never happened, at least not when I was listening. Most people in the audience are ignorant and easily fooled, that's the reason they don't care. If they knew, they would care.! When I point it out, they always say "Really? I didn't know that!!" And that makes me sad every time.....

[Bob Dey]

 

Originally Posted by Piano Whore

Shaster, Bob Dey, 8-string, leftyjay and others that use some kind of tracks- I think you guys are great!thu: Definitely have my respect as players. And I fully understand about not wanting to split the $$, about not having to depend on flaky musicians, and about how it may not be worth the hassle to rehearse with a band.

But having said that, isn't it a treat for any of you to get to do that (play with a good band), at least, on occasion? Doesn't playing with other GOOD, supportive, interactive players hit some kind of spot that doesn't get "hit" when you play to tracks? Or has it been so long you don't remember what it's like? Just curious...

 

Good is the key word. I went to the local Thursday night Blues Jam a few weeks ago and there some very good musicians there, but some of them were showing off too much. By the time I got to sit in the rest of the musicians weren't good. Drummer lost time whenever he did a roll across the tom toms. Trumpet player just kept playing mostly one note. Bass player wasn't up to my standards. The other guitarist was trying to be a blues guy because that was the extent of his musical ability. He also kept stepping on my solos. The guy on the harmonica was OK.

One musician came up to me after the set and said he was glad someone up there knew what they were doing.

Andrew, I've played with musicians earlier in my life ranging from very accomplished to not too good, and really enjoyed working with most of them. But then there's always the personality conflicts etc. It's kind of like being married to 4 people. Yes, I do miss playing live with good musicians with good attitudes.

Over 25 years ago I figured there must be a way to make better money playing music and a solo act was the answer. I wasn't crazy about the acoustic guitar/singers that I'd seen and those 4 track cassette recorders were the new technology. So I started recording my backing tracks one track at a time.

Now does anyone have a good story about band fights or a really good but very weird musician they've worked with? I've got tons of stories!

[cephus]

 

Originally Posted by Bajazz

I understand people giving up on the work of performing and letting a machine do it when they can get the cash and the gigs. But I still thinks it is lame and I am always letting people know that. And whenever I can I preach my religion of being 100% live.

 

I think it does kind of blow that the tracks guys are always having to defend themselves. I personally don't dig it as an audience member. I loved the idea intellectually. I thought that I could come up with some fresh way of doing it that wasn't lame, but I just came to believe that I couldn't do it. It wasn't what I like about music.

So, now I am being one of the looper guys. I don't have anything pre-recorded. I build it all right there. A few musician friends have told me that what I am doing is cool. the non-musicians that don't notice seem to enjoy it. But I do have this nagging feeling that under the sheen of coolness is a framework of lame. I could go with my principles and stop. But the fact is that I am expressing my creativity. I am working harder at music than I have been in a long time. I have been putting in many hours woodshedding and coordinating how to pull off multiple parts live. Writing down which songs to start the loop at the beginning and which ones to start the loop before the chorus.

I admit that I would bug me if you started ripping on me because I'm not in a real band anymore. I wish it could be different. But, for me, at this time of my life, if I want to gig, this is what I gotta do. there are levels of survival that I am willing to accept.

[chemikool]

 

Originally Posted by Potts

The problem that I have, and I wouldn't be surprised if other solo guys were like me, is that if I were in a full band it would have to be MY band. I'd have to make 99% of all the calls including setlist, arrangements and everything else. Sure it sounds arrogant but I'd have a killer band. I've found that people want to contribute too much to the decisions in a band instead of just playing their part and knowing that some are more experienced to lead.

 

This x 100000000000

In addition to my solo thing, I have a band situation as well. I say "I" have it...because it is MY band. Every person was hand-picked and vetted by me. It's my PA, my lights, I'm the lead singer and lead guitar player, I pick the songs, book gigs, handle contacts, arrangements, etc... They all know the deal, too! I handle the lion's share of duties and all they have to do is show up and perform, take the money and go home. I caught a lot of flack in the BSWTB forum a few years ago for saying exactly what I said above. But it is the truth...

Every member of the group has told me how awesome it is, also.

Lead, follow or get out of the way.

And to the original thread ideas and OP:

I will not sit and listen to a solo/duo/group that uses tracks. In the back of my mind, all I can think is that the solo/duo/group was too cheap to pay a real musician, and I ding them for it. But I'm not the target market, so I don't know how much weight my opinion carries. Sharks don't eat other sharks, right?

HOWEVER, for my own solo show I have started dabbling in track use and I don't like it. I'm not sure that I will continue using them, but time will tell. The audience seems to either not mind or not notice, but I notice!

[MartinC]

I was doing a solo gig for a month twice a week when I was offered more money to bring in a trio. I was working in another band and invited two of the guys to form a trio. I knew exactly what I wanted to play, and we worked it out. I'm still playing with the same two guys exactly 20 years later. But what has changed is my original vision. These two guys weren't inexperienced guys who I could mold into what I wanted-they were accomplished full time pros. I had to give up quite a bit in terms of what I originally set out to do musicially and focus on the strong points of each player. Doing so has kept the band together all those years and by presenting each player at his best, we have established our band as a solid original group that does high paying corporate gigs exclusively. I have to admit that if I would have insisted on maintaining the original direction, not only would the original guys be long gone, we likely would have never reached the income per gig that we enjoy. I did other gigs to get the particular musical jones, and let the group do what it was best at.

For solo guys who would like to play with a group of great musicians but insist it be done their way, I'd say it's possible if you already have work that pays enough to keep the players there for the money alone, but if you want the full monty so to speak, your more likely to get it by allowing some creative freedom and by also being willing to utilize the unique skills of the great players you want.

[Piano Whore]

 

Originally Posted by steve mac

When I was a wedding photographer I was at a wedding and really impressed with the piano player who played the couple down the isle. Afterwards I went to say hello and sure enough he was playing a laptop whilst sat at the piano, in a full tux and positioned so to all intent and purposes he was Liberflippinarchy. When played through speakers it really was a good sound but I still felt an idiot.

Cheers Steve

 

Who knows, maybe that kind of thing will become commonplace- maybe even earn a cute moniker like "keyJ"?

The end times are here.

[Bob Dey]

 

Originally Posted by MartinC

For solo guys who would like to play with a group of great musicians but insist it be done their way, I'd say it's possible if you already have work that pays enough to keep the players there for the money alone, but if you want the full monty so to speak, your more likely to get it by allowing some creative freedom and by also being willing to utilize the unique skills of the great players you want.

 

That's true. If I wanted to add a decent drummer and bass player to take the place of my BT I'd have to have more bookings than they would get with someone else. But the places I play at don't wanna pay band prices anyway. The last time a saw Junior Brown perform I noted that his band was similar to BT. He did all the singing and soloing while his back up band kept it simple. Now if he didn't have a name that couldn't happen. At one time he was a sideman.

[Sillypeoples]

 

Originally Posted by MartinC

I was doing a solo gig for a month twice a week when I was offered more money to bring in a trio. I was working in another band and invited two of the guys to form a trio. I knew exactly what I wanted to play, and we worked it out. I'm still playing with the same two guys exactly 20 years later. But what has changed is my original vision. These two guys weren't inexperienced guys who I could mold into what I wanted-they were accomplished full time pros. I had to give up quite a bit in terms of what I originally set out to do musicially and focus on the strong points of each player. Doing so has kept the band together all those years and by presenting each player at his best, we have established our band as a solid original group that does high paying corporate gigs exclusively. I have to admit that if I would have insisted on maintaining the original direction, not only would the original guys be long gone, we likely would have never reached the income per gig that we enjoy. I did other gigs to get the particular musical jones, and let the group do what it was best at.

For solo guys who would like to play with a group of great musicians but insist it be done their way, I'd say it's possible if you already have work that pays enough to keep the players there for the money alone, but if you want the full monty so to speak, your more likely to get it by allowing some creative freedom and by also being willing to utilize the unique skills of the great players you want.

 

As usual....a lucent and cogent post that got me thinking.

[Potts]

Lame take on the subject. What's lame is being so one-directional that one's ego gets in the way of being diverse enough to play any room and entertain anyone that's there. Some gigs I play 100% acoustic, others I play 50-50, some nights I use the looper and other nights I don't. It depends what kind of venue it is and who's there. I would not be playing nearly 200 a dates a year by being close minded. If you are so afraid of what fellow musicians think then you shouldn't be playing.

Originally Posted by Bajazz

I think that anyyone really understanding the difference between playing along to a recording and doing all the work yourself would agree that tracks are lame.

Especially if they are to understand all the hours of hard work put into practice, learning the instruments and technique AND the job of performing it live at a show vs pressing play and jamming along.

Yes, I know a small percentage of you put hours of recording into the tracks, but the moments you press play it is still just as lame! It's just a better quality, you still ain't playing it! And Yes I know some of you can play instruments live on top of the recording, but lot's of karaoke singers are good singers too: It just ain't live music until the music coming out of the speakers are performed by live human beings.

I understand people giving up on the work of performing and letting a machine do it when they can get the cash and the gigs. But I still thinks it is lame and I am always letting people know that. And whenever I can I preach my religion of being 100% live.

However if someone was open about it and let the audience know who the members of the "band" is and told them that they played over a recorded track, I would respect it. But as far as I have experienced, that have never happened, at least not when I was listening. Most people in the audience are ignorant and easily fooled, that's the reason they don't care. If they knew, they would care.! When I point it out, they always say "Really? I didn't know that!!" And that makes me sad every time.....

[Sillypeoples]

My suspicions are that certain backing tracks haters feel they are being replaced....as Luddites felt about emerging technology.

It's understandable, but really is a signal that if a drum machine can do what a real drummer can do, then maybe the drummer needs to evolve further....

The argument against back tracks is simple....artists doing pre rehearsed music, the same at every venue.....makes for a very polished and consistent act...and we see these acts going to the extreme of lip syncing and such, which is basically playing to a back track...

But if you ask me what the argument for a band is over a back track...it's very simple....listen to 'Do you feel like I do' by Peter Frampton.

It's clear to me that if I was to obtain any real live musical stature it would be to play with a band that is engaged with the audience, where the bassist, drummer, keys are reading the crowd, improvising, creating music, stretching the song out if needed, and how you have a really great performance experience where the audience is part of the process. Very hard to do this with a track that is ending....the only real solution is a looper...and have seen some great work with these...

But I think a band that is all engaged in the moment to create something makes the argument for 'the band'.

[leftyjay]

i use an ensoniq asr-10 keyboard for my sequencing. it allows me the freedom of changing the song on the fly. i can let it play the song normally or i can go to plan B and it will allow me to add an extra part to the song. it could be an extended solo or a vamp so i can talk or a turn around so i can do a solo and then last verse again. i just have to make the different sections and store the whole thing as a bank. then if i feel i need to extend the song, i just push a button and it goes to that extra part.

to me, its just like being in the band and the singer says, "jay, take another solo".

i dont do this on every song, but the tunes that usually are the party tunes and the ones that you can get carried away in are all set up like that. some song are normally 3:30 in length, but i can extend them out to nearly 7 minutes if needed.

this comes in real handy when you're just getting the people up on the song and it would normally end. you would normally have to get another song ready to go into immediately so you dont lose the crowd on the dancefloor. or you can extend the song like a band would do. with the Ensoniq keyboard, i'm able to do that on the fly. really makes a difference.

thats probably the main reason i still bring all my midi gear with me instead of going with pre-recorded mp3/waves. plus it allows me to transpose the sequence to any key if i'm not having a great voice night. tempos can be changed. you'd be suprised how often i change a tempo to match the crowd for a song. either speed it up a few BPM or slow it down. plus it allows me to mix the song differently from night to night. each room is different and sometimes you need to tweak a drum or piano or strings/organ part to make it stand out better. using midi sequencing allows you to tweak it for the room. thats something that cant be done with pre-recorded BTs. all you can do is EQ it. and sometimes, that aint enough.

[EightString]

 

Originally Posted by Piano Whore

Shaster, Bob Dey, 8-string, leftyjay and others that use some kind of tracks- I think you guys are great!thu: Definitely have my respect as players. And I fully understand about not wanting to split the $$, about not having to depend on flaky musicians, and about how it may not be worth the hassle to rehearse with a band.

But having said that, isn't it a treat for any of you to get to do that (play with a good band), at least, on occasion? Doesn't playing with other GOOD, supportive, interactive players hit some kind of spot that doesn't get "hit" when you play to tracks? Or has it been so long you don't remember what it's like? Just curious...

 

Sure, I miss it a bit. And I still get the call sometimes to do fill-in vocal gigs with bands, so that gets my rock ya-yas out in that context.

But I don't miss all the BS that goes with maintaining a steady band situation, and the advantages I now experience as a solo make the whole thing worth it. What live band is going to keep up with me if I want to go from Nat "King" Cole to Motorhead in a single night?

Another note to address some other comments I'm reading in this thread. For most of my gigs, I do use my own tracks, but I also do solo acoustic gigs once in a while. But even on my gigs with backing, if someone requests a song that I don't have sequenced up, I'll often do it acoustically as a change of pace. I also do it to show any haters in the audience that I'm not dependent on my backing to entertain people.

To me, tracks aren't an either/or proposition. That said, that guy at the piano in a tux miming to a computer is shameful.

[stunningbabe]

We are not here to please Musicians...but the crowd. Pls get this in your head, guys.

[dparr]

 

Originally Posted by stunningbabe

We are not here to please Musicians...but the crowd. Pls get this in your head, guys.

 

I would be very poor if I played for the Musicians.

[daddymack]

 

Originally Posted by stunningbabe

We are not here to please Musicians...but the crowd. Pls get this in your head, guys.

 

and yet, there is always that 'peer acceptance' issue; we all want to be able to say 'I do this music my way, for me, and I hope people like it', but in the back of our minds there is that little nagging voice in your head asking 'what will your peers think/say?' Because at the end of the day, one wants to be respected by one's peers....unless you are one of those 'laughing all the way to the bank' types.

[pogo97]

I practise for myself, so I can respect myself as a musician. I play for my audience on the rare occasion I play out, in hopes that they will enjoy my contribution to their evening. I record for a handful of musicians who I respect, so that they, in turn, will respect me.

 

 

 

 

 

You're dealing with the demon of external validation. You can't beat external validation. You want to know why? Because it feels sooo good.

Barbara Hall, Northern Exposure, Gran Prix, 1994

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The size of your audience doesn't matter. What's important is that your audience is listening.

Randy Pausch, Carnegie Mellon Commencement Speech, 2008

 

 

 

 

[stunningbabe]

I dont care what Musicians think of me. Really. Not at all. however...i do care about the crowd....and that's the point I am driving to you people.

Please....go please the crowd...instead of seeking other Musicians' approval. The crowd are the ones who pay you the money. Not other Musicians.

Now...did I drive home this point to you people clearly?

[pogo97]

maybe I don't care that much about money--music is not my family's prime income source

maybe, given where I live, there's no 'living' to be made playing live music anyway

maybe there are enough struggling/part-time musicians in this town who will play anything for a buck and I'm not interested in competing with them

maybe, when my children are grown and I'm gone, I care that they understand I created honestly and didn't compromise my art or craft

so, no, you have not yet driven that point home to me

doesn't mean you're wrong, just not right for me

 

 

 

 

 

Music is essentially useless, as life is.

George Santayana

 

 

 

 

[stunningbabe]

 

Originally Posted by pogo97

I practise for myself, so I can respect myself as a musician. I play for my audience on the rare occasion I play out, in hopes that they will enjoy my contribution to their evening. I record for a handful of musicians who I respect, so that they, in turn, will respect me.

 

Sounds to me that you have insecurity issue. You seek other Musician's favor and approval to feel happy that you are 'accepted' by them. Correct me if I am wrong.

[Potts]

 

Originally Posted by stunningbabe

Sounds to me that you have insecurity issue. You seek other Musician's favor and approval to feel happy that you are 'accepted' by them. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

Umm..you're wrong.

[stunningbabe]

 

Originally Posted by Potts

Umm..you're wrong.

 

why? Pls explain. Let's see if you even know how to do that.

[Potts]

 

Originally Posted by stunningbabe

why? Pls explain. Let's see if you even know how to do that.

 

LOL.. I love the language barrier that makes me feel like I'm talking to a spammer.