Yorkville NX Vs. QSC K Series

[Rumorsband]

I also was a bit miffed by the 1000W QSC claim, however my JBL service friend explained it in laymans terms. They do have 2x500 watt amps. They use the same amp in the entire series and therefore its actually cheaper for them to make, easier to design the cabs around etc etc. Even though there is a 500 watt amp for the HF...they don't use it all. It has ... like the old GO Carts that could go 40 mph and kill a bunch of young kids ... a governor on it that will allow it only to go 15 mph. Sounds like JBL PRX 600 series is kinda now doing the same thing.

[335BoB]

Well, I HATE to be the one to point this out, BUT I bought my SxA360's a few months back when there was rumor that they were being discontinued. (They weren't even listed on the EV website) Any and all info that "I" found at the time stated that they were rated at 350 watts RMS for LF and 150 watts RMS at HF.

Anyone want to guess what they are now rated at?
http://www.electrovoice.com/product.php?id=211

(Luckily I saw this before I got rid of them to keep these 1000watt K8's )

I think I'll give EV Tech Support a phone call first chance I get to see what they have to say about this.

[dcastar]

Cue : Sounding like a broken record.

Again; Why is everyone still obsessed with these wattage numbers?? You should be looking at Continuous db and Sensitivity db numbers.


Would you rather have:
Speaker A : 8000w on Fisher Price drivers that peaks at 134db's, but can only continuously do 120db's.

or

Speaker B : 600w on quality drivers that peak at 134db, and can continuously output ~129db's.


The choice should be simple here.


People are just being led astray by salesman and marketing hype, instead of getting educated on what they should really be looking at.

This is similar to going car shopping... and not knowing anything about cars.
Salesman takes you to the lot,
and there is Car A, with a big bright sign that says 1000 Horsepower!! And nothing else.

Sitting next to it, is Car B, It has a spreadsheet of specs on it's window sticker, with 250 horsepower, 12" dual piston brake calipers, 5-star safety ratings, etc...

Since you know nothing about cars... you automatically assume; OMG CAR A HAS ONE THOUSAND HORSEPOWERS! It must be 4x better than Car B!

Do you see where this is going?

[jwlussow]

Nice. How long before ever cab out there is at least 1000 watts? Gotta love that new math.

 

It's hard to blame the manufacturers (though I still do). Imagine releasing the perfect cab but because some other manufacturer released one of less quality but higher "numbers", they outsell you and advertise that you "don't have as much power". Kind of sucks for the honest businessman.

[jwlussow]

Cue : Sounding like a broken record. Again; Why is everyone still obsessed with these wattage numbers?? You should be looking at Continuous db and Sensitivity db numbers. Would you rather have: Speaker A : 8000w on Fisher Price drivers that peaks at 134db's, but can only continuously do 120db's. or Speaker B : 600w on quality drivers that peak at 134db, and can continuously output ~129db's. The choice should be simple here. People are just being led astray by salesman and marketing hype, instead of getting educated on what they should really be looking at. This is similar to going car shopping... and not knowing anything about cars. Salesman takes you to the lot, and there is Car A, with a big bright sign that says 1000 Horsepower!! And nothing else. Sitting next to it, is Car B, It has a spreadsheet of specs on it's window sticker, with 250 horsepower, 12" dual piston brake calipers, 5-star safety ratings, etc... Since you know nothing about cars... you automatically assume; OMG CAR A HAS ONE THOUSAND HORSEPOWERS! It must be 4x better than Car B! Do you see where this is going?

 

Problem is, the average buyer might not have the same experience as some of us. I'll bet the average noob would jump at those 8000 watt Fischer Prices in a heartbeat. Look how many here are still living with the bigger is better mentality. "Give me a 4-15" and Piezo tweeter JRX cab over that tiny 12" SRX cab. It can't be loud because it's so small..."

 

The masses are asses and marketing people exploit that every single day.

[Rumorsband]

If it makes any difference to fuel this fire I found out neither company makes their own drivers. QSC drivers are made by Celestian, and Yorkville is made by RCF. While trying to decide whether to go lateral and lighten my load with the K10's I was informed (and I dont need to say correct me if I'm wrong, beacuse I know a host of you will) that when making this decision it is important to see the db loss if any at 100hz would be in the K10 and that a 12" usually has better response or 0 db loss at that frequecy. Again, I may have completely misunderstood this statement...Straighten out my wishy washy I cant decide ass. I contacted QSC and am awaiting a reply.

[Shaster]

If it makes any difference to fuel this fire I found out neither company makes their own drivers. QSC drivers are made by Celestian, and Yorkville is made by RCF. .

 

 

I don't know about QSC but Yorkville doesn't use RCF much anymore. Maybe something to do with RCF trying to get into the world market, or maybe Mackie complained about Yorkville having access to RCF, or.... who knows. Yorkville still uses B&C as they have for years and lately they've been using a fair bit of the 18 sound speakers more and more. All three comanies are Italian based AFAIK.

 

Personally I like the RCF products best (warm sound) followed by B&C's stuff. The 18 Sound gear sounds a little clinical to me, but everyone hears differently.

[Bobby1Note]

Well, I HATE to be the one to point this out, BUT I bought my SxA360's a few months back when there was rumor that they were being discontinued. (They weren't even listed on the EV website) Any and all info that "I" found at the time stated that they were rated at 350 watts RMS for LF and 150 watts RMS at HF. Anyone want to guess what they are now rated at? http://www.electrovoice.com/product.php?id=211 (Luckily I saw this before I got rid of them to keep these 1000watt K8's ) I think I'll give EV Tech Support a phone call first chance I get to see what they have to say about this.

 

So Bob/335,

 

Did the K-8's "kill" your "outdated" SxA 360's? Afterall, they use the same amp and HF driver as the "Killer" K-10. What was your experience since adding the SxA 360 to your rig. vs the K-8?

[Bobby1Note]

 

I don't know about QSC but Yorkville doesn't use RCF much anymore. Maybe something to do with RCF trying to get into the world market, or maybe Mackie complained about Yorkville having access to RCF, or.... who knows. Yorkville still uses B&C as they have for years and lately they've been using a fair bit of the 18 sound speakers more and more. All three comanies are Italian based AFAIK. Personally I like the RCF products best (warm sound) followed by B&C's stuff. The 18 Sound gear sounds a little clinical to me, but everyone hears differently.

 

 

Shaster,

 

I came across a pic a few days ago, of an opened-up NX55p, and if memory serves, it had a Celestion LF driver. I'll see if I can dig it up. I think I saw it at PSW. I'll post it if I can find it.

[Bobby1Note]

OK Shaster, here's the pic I saw. Mind you, this is "old". It's from a review that was posted in July, 2007.

 

http://photos.lhsoundandlight.com/photos/nx55p/2007.05.01%20Inside%20NX55p%20005.jpg

[Rumorsband]

What a true statement. I remember when I walked in Guitar Center and first saw the QSC and the salesman said " You Believe It 1000 F%$$in Watts in this 12" speaker...you got 500 going to LF the and 500 to the horn". I said " How can you put 500 watts to a horn without making a projectile missle out of it?" he said " I dunno man, but they do" and then cranked the living {censored} out of them to I guess try to prove his point. You know, we really dont play that loud to begin with...no one has ever said we cant hear you, you're distorting, etc etc. Its in my mind getting the best sound in as samll a package as I can manage. I started playing when this band The Beatles had their first and only US hit. Go New Kids On The Block - thats for my daughter who said at the time...they were bigger and better than them.

[agedhorse]

Andy, I recall when Matt V. was here, and the goings-on at that time. I was a noob here back then. Matt's "understanding" of watts back then, really has nothing to do with Yorkvilles claims however. Again, Yorkville clearly states "program power", or roughly 1.5x RMS, which is what I see you recommend to folks, all the time. If Yorkville deliberately left out the phrase "Program Power", and simply stated "watts", then that would indeed be potentially misleading; but that is clearly not the case.

 

 

It's NOT 1.5x the RMS power. You are duping yourself even with the information I presented.

[Rumorsband]

Are what you saying is the Nx 55's comparable RMS is actually 360 and the NX720 is 500 ? How does QSC rate their speakers? I have heard both and cant belive theirs would be 500 to the LF and my NX is only aboyt 275-300 watts. How about JBL's power ratings? These NX55's actually sounded louder than my EON 515's which were 450 watts if I recall correctly. Not really a big deal to me, but seems hard to belive or at least understand

[twostone]

RMS= works good for years
Program= Factory's Suggestion watch you P's and Q's
Peak=1 0r 2 seconds before a puff of smoke

[witesol]

i don't care about advertising claims, only if it's the right tool for my work. I may buy a pair of QSC K10s, could care less about the marketing dept use of the engineer's choice of power modules.

[Bobby1Note]

 

It's NOT 1.5x the RMS power. You are duping yourself even with the information I presented.

 

 

Well Andy, Perhaps if you expanded on your "duping myself" comment a little, maybe I WOULD understand. You say these things, then don't explain. You yourself, said program power was roughly RMS + 50% earlier in this thread, did you not?

[Al Poulin]

Both the QSC Ks and Yorkville NX55Ps use Celestion woofers and horns. The woofer on the 55P is a very high quality one with a 3'' VC and 450 watt PGM rating by Celestion. Probably the same as in the K12 I'm guessing, only Yorkville's processing {censored}ing up the max output of the woofer by boosting those deep lows too much. They sound so damn nice and full at low to medium levels though. You would think a sub is being used. I just used them tonight for a live Christmas show for about 100 people and they simply sounded amazing.

 

The horn on the K series is a 1.75 Celestion vs. a 1.4'' on the 55P, so the Ks have an advantage there. Not a 400 watt advantage though as they would like you to believe...

 

Yorkville's powered speaker ratings seem pretty accurate to me. Yorkville did confirm the 550 watt continuous output of the amps in the Nx55Ps a few years ago. The NX55P can sound a hell of alot louder than it does out of the box if EQ'd properly. One thing I can say, my 200 watt YX15Ps did outperform some 400 watt Samsons I tested recently. My 250 watt RMS Wharfedales outperformed them even more. So {censored} watts! It looks like it's just gonna get worse. 1000, 1200, 1500 2000.

 

Al

[Bobby1Note]

 

i don't care about advertising claims, only if it's the right tool for my work. I may buy a pair of QSC K10s, could care less about the marketing dept use of the engineer's choice of power modules.

 

 

Now, THERE"S a comment I can agree with 110%.

[Al Poulin]

 

Now, THERE"S a comment I can agree with 110%.

 

 

True. I've done about 100 live shows with my NX55Ps (no other box I own sound so nice and full all by itself) and also use them to DJ with quite often. In the five years I've owned them, they have never let me down. They have well been worth their price. I did replace the woofers on them a few months ago (thanks to that strong bass processing) but have not had ny other problem with them. They are the right tool for quite a few of my jobs and the only tool I am satisfied with for my live shows.

 

Al

[335BoB]

So Bob/335, Did the K-8's "kill" your "outdated" SxA 360's? Afterall, they use the same amp and HF driver as the "Killer" K-10. What was your experience since adding the SxA 360 to your rig. vs the K-8?

 

 

Well I'm only answering this because I was asked. I don't want to get beat up cpmparing an 8" speaker to a 12" speaker.

 

It wasn't even close. With both speakers attenuators turned all the way up and both plugged into a ZED12FX board, The SxA360 was very much louder, clearer, better highs, better lows, vocals more articulated, and overall better balance. Of course that's "my" opinion. But I basically thought it sounded pretty good for an outdated speaker.

[agedhorse]

Well Andy, Perhaps if you expanded on your "duping myself" comment a little, maybe I WOULD understand. You say these things, then don't explain. You yourself, said program power was roughly RMS + 50% earlier in this thread, did you not?

 

 

The amp in the 1500 watt program rated speaker is 750 watts RMS. It's a 750 watt RMS speaker. That's what they power it with.

[Bobby1Note]

 

The amp in the 1500 watt program rated speaker is 750 watts RMS. It's a 750 watt RMS speaker. That's what they power it with.

 

 

Yeah,,,,,, so what the heck has that got to do with "Me duping myself"???? I wasn't even talking about that sub.

 

I don't get you sometimes Andy. On the one hand, you talk about "clever engineers" at QSC who "may have" implemented some clever scheme allowing them to run a 500wRMS amp into a 75w HF driver,,,, and on the other hand, you're knocking Yorkville because they're powering a sub at 2xRMS and calling it Program Power ?????

 

My heads' spinning.

[Shaster]

I don't believe Yorkville is using much if any Celestion stuff, at least not according to their spec and product sheets but anything is possible. All I know is that lately when I open up my cabs (U15, E10P, E12, E210, NX350...) they are either B&C or 18 Sound, not RCF.

Yorkville bulilt a nice reputation using RCF (as did Mackie) but AFAIK Yorkville doesn't use much RCF anymore.

Back to program power; Yorkville has been using program power since Moses' beard was black. It's no big deal IMHO. As I alluded to before, it's farenheit to celsius, as long as it's stated. Now when EV starts using peak power (see earlier in this thread) that's when I have a problem. The 1960's are calling... they want their peak rating back!

[Shaster]

Finally I found Yorkville's possibly "outdated" reasoning for using program power.

Here's the PA guide (page 40) http://www.yorkville.com/downloads/other/paguide.pdf

And here's the specific section

POWER RATINGS Finally we have speaker power ratings. They are expressed in watts, everyone knows that, the question is, what kind of watts. Once upon a time it was "RMS" and now it's "PGM" (program) power. One of the reasons for the change away from RMS (aside from the fact that it was a technical misnomer) was all the marketplace misunderstandings about translating RMS ratings into applied power. Back in the 1970's when everybody was learning about sound systems, you might hear someone say, "Oh I know that speaker. The rating is 100 watts RMS but you can hit it with two times that much power." Go around the corner and you might hear someone else say, "RMS times three, that's how much power you sock into that speaker - in fact any speaker." (argh!). Meanwhile speakers, horns and tweeters were blowing up like popcorn and repairmen were the only ones making a profit - at least that's how it seemed. Thankfully, "program" power ratings are more reliable when used the right way. Now, when you see "pgm" you know it means "APPLY NO MORE THAN THIS MUCH POWER". Life is simpler and safer. Oh yes, it's worth noting that applied power is shared by speakers. Two 100-watt speakers powered by the same mono amplifier or one channel of a stereo amp can handle a total of 200 watts (you already knew that, right?).

 

[Al Poulin]

 

I don't believe Yorkville is using much if any Celestion stuff, at least not according to their spec and product sheets but anything is possible. All I know is that lately when I open up my cabs (U15, E10P, E12, E210, NX350...) they are either B&C or 18 Sound, not RCF. Yorkville bulilt a nice reputation using RCF (as did Mackie) but AFAIK Yorkville doesn't use much RCF anymore.

 

 

I know for a fact Yorkville uses quite a bit of Celestion and 18 Sound (Italy) woofers and compression drivers. as for RCF, not so much anymore...

 

Al