Why are Gibson guitars so expensive?

[Anderton]

3) The name - Gibson has worked very hard to have a good name in the business and that is worth a lot of money.

 

Part of the reason for that is Gibson stands behind their products. If you have a problem with the guitar, Gibson will make it right. Of course Gibson is by no means alone in that respect, but is one of those brands where people can have confidence in buying the product.

 

Is the 330 worth 4 Casinos? That depends on the player.

 

I also think the law of diminishing returns comes into play here. A $100 speaker could very well be 10 times better than a $10 speaker, but it's unlikely that a $10,000 speaker is 10 times better than a $1,000. With something like a Les Paul Standard, going "the extra mile" is a lot more expensive than going the first mile.

 

I bought a limited edition Epiphone Swingster Royale yesterday (couldn't resist the blue finish and gray sparkle binding) and damn, it's one fine guitar. Yes, it lacks some of the finesse of a Gibson, but it's very playable, affordable, and sounds great.

 

This reminds me of the question "how many guitars is enough?" And of course, the answer is "one more."

 

[Notes_Norton]

I've never had a problem with a Gibson guitar, but I've read enough stories to know they will make it right.

 

I did have a problem with a Parker. They fixed it at their expense. It broke again (a minor crack) and the replaced it for no charge to me.

 

Better companies know that service means repeat business - lack of service means no repeat business.

 

The Gibson vs the Epiphone with the same body is like the Lexus vs Toyota with the same body. Some people think the extras are worth the money, others don't.

 

And I do like the diminishing returns statement Craig.

 

Insights and incites by Notes

[Notes_Norton]

Notes, just out of curiosity, do you have a picture of your Peerless Casino? What year was it made?

 

Mine is a 2001, also from the Peerless factory, and it's one of my favorite guitars.

 

2000 (I think) and it's a well built guitar.

 

I did replace the pick guard with a black one and put witch hat knobs on it.

 

I think the black pick guard brings out the wood grain better, and I got so used to the witch hat knobs on my Gibson that I find them easier to see.

 

I bought the Casino to take on the gig. The 1970 Gibson is now a collector's item, and I didn't want to ruin it. I play sax, flute, wind synth, guitar, sometimes keyboard, sometimes electric drums, and switching instruments in a hurry is a sure way to put excessive wear on an instrument and a possible accident waiting to happen.

 

All in all I'm as happy with the Casino as the Gibson. I wish it had higher fret action, I actually like the poly finish better for gigging, but I wish it had a smaller headstock *perhaps the Bikini headstock). I'm not opposed to the Epi headstock, it just looks too long for this guitar to me (minor thing).

 

I ended up getting a weekly afternoon gig on a quay over a salt water lagoon, and I don't want to take a hollow guitar to that gig, which is why I bought a Parker solid body. I'm a big P90 fan so I put P-Rails in my Parker.

 

OK, I showed you mine, let's see yours

 

Before:

 

After:

 

 

[Phil O'Keefe]

This reminds me of the question "how many guitars is enough?" And of course, the answer is "one more."

 

 

lol - may I quote you on that? It may come in handy sometime when I need to justify a new guitar to the wife...

 

[Phil O'Keefe]

I agree - the black pickguard does look very nice on that Casino!

[Phil O'Keefe]

 

OK, I showed you mine, let's see yours

 

 

 

 

That's only fair.

 

As I said, it's a 2001, which I purchased new online (Ebay, IIRC) and hoped for the best... and totally lucked out. It's one of those lifelong keepers you're lucky to occasionally find...

 

I did pull the pickguard off of it - I like the way it plays and looks better without it. Outside of that and a replacement three-way switch (the stock one died and was replaced with a Switchcraft), it's totally stock.

 

 

 

 

And here's another picture I took of it - this one was for the Casino Coupe review I did a while back - I wanted to show the size difference between a regular Casino and the smaller (ES-339 sized) Casino Coupe. The Coupe was a review unit and is not mine.

 

 

 

 

About the only thing I don't like about my Casino are the neck inlays. They are acrylic, and unlike some other acrylic inlays I've seen, they don't really look anything at all like mother of pearl - they're "swirl-less" and almost completely uniform. Their grayish color is also kind of weird. But hey, that's just bling and visuals - it's a great guitar where it counts - it plays and sounds fantastic, and it has one of the sweetest necks of any guitar I've ever owned on it.

[Phil O'Keefe]

 

So it's not "paper or plastic," it's paper AND plastic!

 

 

Here in California, instead of asking you if you want paper or plastic at the supermarket, they now ask you if you want a bag or not. I'm serious. They have to charge you ten cents per bag, per a new state law designed to cut down on the use of plastic bags. We have a bunch of reusable bags we now take to the store whenever we go shopping.

 

[Notes_Norton]

Thanks. I like the color a lot.

 

I agree with the inlays, but also that they are just bling. When playing the guitar I can't see them anyway. My Casino does have good binding and fret markers on the top of the neck.

 

I bought my Casino used. I tried my local M&P shop but they couldn't get Gibson products (too small) so I drove 50 miles to Wes Palm Beach. At a Guitar Center store there were some new ones, and a couple of used ones. This used one actually sounded the best. Later on I found it had aftermarket P90s (I think Duncan from the description I put on the Gibson/Epiphone forum years and years ago). The previous owner also put Grover tuners on it.

 

My 1970 Gibson ES-330 is totally stock. The only thing I've change on it is the strings. It sounds much better as an acoustic, plugged in the Casio with the aftermarket pickups sounds a little better, and both are great guitars.

 

I could live with my Gibson, Epi, and my two Parkers and not need another guitar. In fact, I gave away one to a disadvantaged student who seems to have the passion but his family fell on hard times due to an illness. I'll probably sell the others eventually, but I tend to hoard.

 

Notes

[Notes_Norton]

Here in Florida there are no restrictions. We bring reusable cloth bags because we think it's the right thing to do. If going into the store for one or two items, we tell them we don't need a bag and carry them out 'naked'.

 

When I was in the UK quite a few years ago, I heard people call the plastic bags that eventually blow into trees and get snagged there, witches' knickers which I thought pretty cute.

[EmgEsp]

Well...I really don't think $399 (the lowest-priced model in the 2017 lineup) is that expensive. AFAIK it's not possible to make a decent guitar in the USA for less. The Les Paul Faded for $799 is very sweet, and there are quite a few guitars in the sub-$1,000 range.

 

So I think your real question is why are Gibson's expensive guitars so expensive...like the Les Paul Standard, which lists for $2,799. There are multiple aspects to the Standard that fall into the "you get what you pay for" category.

 

First, all Gibson guitars are hand-made in the United States using almost exclusively American-made parts, so that leads to a higher price (and higher quality) from the gitgo. This makes a significant difference when you have something as labor- and time-intensive as, for example, the finish (which requires multiple applications over a long period of time). There's a definite dividing line in terms of price between, for example, high-gloss and satin finishes; high-gloss finishes are buffed at each stage, by hand, by humans who are paid American wages. (Also note that for some consumers, it's important to "buy American" and they know they can do that with Gibson.)

 

 

 

 

No they aren't. They are run through CNC machines like the majority of other electric guitar companies. They are hand finished, but so are Kiesel guitars which offer even more features than Gibson at less than half the price. The main reason Gibson guitars are really expensive is because they market their guitars mainly as a boutique item. They want the high price tag to make their guitars seem more special than they really are. In truth their $5K guitars probably cost $500 in materials. I'm not saying they aren't high quality guitars, but they aren't any more high quality than a Kiesel, Ibanez Prestige or Jackson USA model.

[Notes_Norton]

If you want that 'special' logo on your polo shirt, you pay more.

 

Same for lady's handbags

 

Same for t-shirts or hats with a major league team logo

 

Same for cars

 

Same for guitars

 

It's the dream of most corporations to get a reputation big enough so that people identify with the brand and will pay more for that logo.

 

If I bring my Gibson to the stage more people notice that than if I bring my Parker. There is absolutely nothing wrong with my Gibson, it's a great guitar, but my Parker suits my gigging needs better so I bring it. I'm into performance more than prestige.

 

Insights and incites by Notes

 

[bookumdano4]

I'm covering my ears.... every Casino pic is producing virtual feedback and I can't stand it any more! I'm also reminded... the E falls off. Keep that in mind if you don't already know.

 

Random nothingness... the real-deal Casino in 1965 (for example mine), had an Epiphone/Gibson vibrato (option.. which I had) that had a little wooden E insert in one spot and.... a cotter pin instead of a spring for the vibrato/tremelo/whammy effect. It was a disaster. You didn't dare do too many whammies or the cotter pin would break.... often. Making the bar slam down to the wood and the guitar being unplayable. Facilitating a trip into the music store to get it fixed. After about five times of that, I just had them put an actual Bigsby on the guitar. Which is the way Beatles and other 196* Casino users seemed to be doing too.

 

 

[Mikeo]

Gibson guitars were not inexpensive back in 1981-1982. You buy it right and buy in once.

 

If the cost of goods doubles every 10 years or so, you crunch the numbers here on the MSRP's

 

 

You could get a better discount off the MSRP back 35 years ago, but I hope you get the idea.

 

 

 

 

Like Craig says, there's a ton of work that goes into building a nice guitar.

 

I never in my wildest dreams, as a young guy would think I'd have as many instruments and guitars as I do. Lots of guys ave way more too.

 

Back in the day, I wanted one nice Gibson Les Paul, and one nice Fender Strat, to play through one nice amp.

 

My hard consistent work and by the grace of god, I have been blessed in spades to own some rather nice gear, including many many Gibson products.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[nice keetee]

Amen...

[Anderton]

 

 

No they aren't. They are run through CNC machines like the majority of other electric guitar companies. They are hand finished, but so are Kiesel guitars which offer even more features than Gibson at less than half the price. The main reason Gibson guitars are really expensive is because they market their guitars mainly as a boutique item. They want the high price tag to make their guitars seem more special than they really are. In truth their $5K guitars probably cost $500 in materials. I'm not saying they aren't high quality guitars, but they aren't any more high quality than a Kiesel, Ibanez Prestige or Jackson USA model.

 

As I pointed out, "It's also very important to note that all Gibson guitars use the PLEK process for dressing the frets and cutting the nut to ensure the best possible action." And of course Gibson uses tools like CNC machines; check out these videos if you want to see how Gibson guitars are made.

 

[video=youtube;VbU1R4KDymw]

 

[video=youtube;yvVKhDaHIzE]

 

 

As to expensive, I mentioned,Gibson has a lot of guitars that cost under a thousand, going all the way down to $399. I think it's hard to justify that kind of pricing as a "boutique item," but I guess "boutique" is in the eye of the beholder.

 

Also the cost in materials isn't all that goes into making a guitar, there's also the labor, QC, support, etc. I'm sure the materials cost involved in making a nitrocellulose finish is negligible, but the work that goes into doing multiple layers and doing the buffing is what adds up.

 

 

 

[EmgEsp]

 

As I pointed out, "It's also very important to note that all Gibson guitars use the PLEK process for dressing the frets and cutting the nut to ensure the best possible action." And of course Gibson uses tools like CNC machines; check out these videos if you want to see how Gibson guitars are made.

 

As to expensive, I mentioned,Gibson has a lot of guitars that cost under a thousand, going all the way down to $399. I think it's hard to justify that kind of pricing as a "boutique item," but I guess "boutique" is in the eye of the beholder.

 

Also the cost in materials isn't all that goes into making a guitar, there's also the labor, QC, support, etc. I'm sure the materials cost involved in making a nitrocellulose finish is negligible, but the work that goes into doing multiple layers and doing the buffing is what adds up.[/color]

 

 

 

 

Once again I'll bring up Kiesel. Made in the USA semi custom guitars that are on average at least half the price of a similar Gibson. The only big thing they don't offer is real binding. So, I think we can agree that a big part of why Gibson's prices are so high compared to smaller companies is because they can be, not because they have to in order to make a specific amount of profit. They could sell those $5K guitars at $3K and still make a healthy profit. People are just gullible and let companies take advantage of them. I own a real Gibson and I love it, but the prices on some of those guitars are crazy.

 

[video=youtube;H_Pv21j7iMg]

 

[Anderton]

 

Once again I'll bring up Kiesel. Made in the USA semi custom guitars that are on average at least half the price of a similar Gibson.

 

Well, I checked out the Kiesel site and there are a couple of salient points. First, Gibson has several guitars that are less expensive than the least expensive Kiesel. Second, Kiesel sells direct. If you look at the MSRPs, they're about the same as Gibson. Any company could cut prices dramatically if they sold direct. There are pros and cons either way, and some people think that someday, all MI companies will be forced to sell direct. However as a rule of thumb, the larger the company, the more they need the support system of retailers, from GC to Amazon to mom and pop stores.

 

I'm sure Kiesel makes fine guitars, but they exist in a very different situation compared to Fender, Gibson, Yamaha, etc. The reason why many smaller companies sell direct is because it gives them a competitive advantage in terms of pricing, but that model becomes increasingly difficult to sustain as a company grows.

[EmgEsp]

 

Well, I checked out the Kiesel site and there are a couple of salient points. First, Gibson has several guitars that are less expensive than the least expensive Kiesel. Second, Kiesel sells direct. If you look at the MSRPs, they're about the same as Gibson. Any company could cut prices dramatically if they sold direct. There are pros and cons either way, and some people think that someday, all MI companies will be forced to sell direct. However as a rule of thumb, the larger the company, the more they need the support system of retailers, from GC to Amazon to mom and pop stores.

 

I'm sure Kiesel makes fine guitars, but they exist in a very different situation compared to Fender, Gibson, Yamaha, etc. The reason why many smaller companies sell direct is because it gives them a competitive advantage in terms of pricing, but that model becomes increasingly difficult to sustain as a company grows.

 

 

Sure, Gibson does have some models lower than the least expensive Kiesel, but again Kiesel is a semi custom guitar company, so you have a ton of options at your disposal when placing an order. You can choose the body/neck wood, fret wire, radius, neck profile, scale length, bridges, pickup configurations, finishes, etc. With Gibson you are stuck with whatever options they chose for the specific guitar, unless you go through their custom shop which is going to cost a pretty penny.

 

Gibson without question makes a quality product, but the truth is a good percentage of the price is reflected on the Gibson name.

[Anderton]

Gibson without question makes a quality product, but the truth is a good percentage of the price is reflected on the Gibson name.

 

Definitely a percentage of price is due to what the Gibson name represents in terms of quality etc. But I can guarantee you a much, much higher percentage of the price is reflected in the dealer margin. There are many reasons for that, and there are many reasons why companies choose going direct or going with retailers. As I mentioned, there are pros and cons to both, but going direct tends to favor smaller companies and going through retailers tends to favor larger ones.

 

I can also guarantee you that if any company can afford to cut their prices, they will do so in order to gain market share. I'm sure if Les Paul Standards could sell for $999, Gibson's market share would skyrocket. But the company could not exist selling Les Paul Standards at that price, so the point is moot.

 

If you want to know more about direct vs. retail and what it means to companies, do a search on Fender's (very) cautious foray into going direct. It's pretty interesting.

 

 

 

[EmgEsp]

 

Well, I checked out the Kiesel site and there are a couple of salient points. First, Gibson has several guitars that are less expensive than the least expensive Kiesel. Second, Kiesel sells direct. If you look at the MSRPs, they're about the same as Gibson. Any company could cut prices dramatically if they sold direct. There are pros and cons either way, and some people think that someday, all MI companies will be forced to sell direct. However as a rule of thumb, the larger the company, the more they need the support system of retailers, from GC to Amazon to mom and pop stores.

 

I'm sure Kiesel makes fine guitars, but they exist in a very different situation compared to Fender, Gibson, Yamaha, etc. The reason why many smaller companies sell direct is because it gives them a competitive advantage in terms of pricing, but that model becomes increasingly difficult to sustain as a company grows.

 

 

Just for fun I put together a build for a Kiesel CS3 (LP Style) to match close to the price of the current Gibson Studio selling for $1500.

 

Spec comparisons.

 

Gibson Les Paul Studio 2017 MSRP $1500

 

- Chambered Mahogany Body with Plain Maple Top

 

- 1 Piece Mahogany Set Neck with Rosewood fretboard

 

- 22 Frets

 

- Non-Locking Tuners

 

- Block Inlays (Top) White Dots (Side)

 

- Choice of three body finishes

 

 

Kiesel CS3 MSRP $1600

 

 

- Chambered Mahogany Body and Plain Maple Top

 

- 5 Piece Mahogany Set Neck with Ebony fretboard and dual carbon fiber rods installed

 

- 22 Frets

 

- Locking Tuners

 

- Block Inlays (Top) Luminlay Dots (Side)

 

- Choice of 12 body finishes at no extra cost.

 

 

Objectively you get more for around the same price with a Kiesel. Comparing craftsmanship between the two companies is probably an Apples to Oranges comparison at this point. They both make generally high quality instruments with the occasional lemons now and then. Why someone would choose the Gibson over the Kiesel is probably really down to name recognition, neck profiles and general looks.

[EmgEsp]

Well, doesn't the cost of materials go down the higher the bulk you order? I'm sure Gibson buys way more wood and general parts annually than Kiesel does.

[Anderton]

Objectively you get more for around the same price with a Kiesel. Comparing craftsmanship between the two companies is probably an Apples to Oranges comparison at this point. They both make generally high quality instruments with the occasional lemons now and then. Why someone would choose the Gibson over the Kiesel is probably really down to name recognition, neck profiles and general looks.

 

Note that the Gibson comes with a hard shell case (couldn't find case info on the Kiesel site, but it looks like it's another $200?), the Plek setup, and the cryogenic frets. The frets in particular are interesting, most people will never need to get a fret job. Also the Plek process does a great job on optimizing the setup. The case adds a couple hundred dollars to the price, as does the amortization on the Plek machines until they're paid off. You can get a non-Pleked guitar done, but it will cost you anywhere from $200-$300 so that and the case alone accounts for a significant part of the Studio's price.

[bookumdano4]

I suppose some of the cost of paying for the cnc machines is reflected in Gibson prices. Are Epiphones made on those types of gizmos too? What was Norlin doing in 1974? I'm not familiar with the world of guitar-making machines. Was Norlin having to do things by hand? (Which could explain why I don't much like my Norlin era Pauls). In general, not knowing the world of cnc machines, my intuition is that they probably play a part in making really-good-guitars to the point I'd choose a computer-controlled machine to make my guitar rather than a great guy with a chisel and glue (or whatever). Not that the guy with the sandpaper isn't a nice guy........

[Anderton]

I suppose some of the cost of paying for the cnc machines is reflected in Gibson prices. Are Epiphones made on those types of gizmos too? What was Norlin doing in 1974? I'm not familiar with the world of guitar-making machines. Was Norlin having to do things by hand? (Which could explain why I don't much like my Norlin era Pauls). In general' date=' not knowing the world of cnc machines, my intuition is that they probably play a part in making really-good-guitars to the point I'd choose a computer-controlled machine to make my guitar rather than a great guy with a chisel and glue (or whatever). Not that the guy with the sandpaper isn't a nice guy........[/quote']

 

I'm not sure when CNC machines became prevalent, but yes, they definitely improve consistency.

 

BTW the point of my posts isn't to be argumentative, but to point out that there are many, many costs that go into a guitar that aren't "visible to the naked eye." And yes, amortizing machinery like CNC or Plek factors into the equation. Then you have unpredictable things, like Gibson having to pay $3.5 million in legal fees (IIRC) to fight the government case, for which Gibson was ultimately exonerated. (Or as the editor of Music Trades summed up the government's conclusion: "You didn't do anything wrong, just don't do it again.") Unfortunately that gets passed along to consumers as well...it's part of the cost of doing business.

 

Another issue is the extent to which Gibson guitars are counterfeited. There are people at Gibson whose gig is to keep counterfeiters from getting the guitars to market, and a legal team that's constantly dealing with the repercussions. It's not just a question of "gee, we'd rather they buy our stuff" but the calls to support about "Your guitars suck!! I've only had my Les Paul for a month and the neck is unplayable!!" where it turns out the buyer bought a counterfeit. (One of my favorite memes while walking past a support person: "Yes, sir, it is indeed a serial number. However it's not a Gibson serial number.") Unfortunately, legitimate customers have to cover the cost of dealing with crooks (just like if you buy something at a big box store, you're paying for the losses caused by shoplifters).

 

In all my experience over the years consulting to dozens and dozens of companies, I've been involved in many pricing discussions. Almost invariably, the question is "how low can we go and still make money?" In a world where the margins for companies are pretty thin, market share is the name of the game; and market share is very price-sensitive.

[MikeRivers]

 

The frets in particular are interesting, most people will never need to get a fret job. Also the Plek process does a great job on optimizing the setup.

 

I liked watching those Plek machines at the NAMM show (there's usually one in Hall E) almost as much as I enjoyed watching the cassette loading machines that they used to show at the AES show.