"Too loud," part 2

[Phil O'Keefe]

one idea is to move my amp and point it at me instead of the congregation so it's more of a monitor than anything else.

 

That's a good place to start. You need to hear it so you can tell what you're doing. Aiming it at you allows you to do so easier, and potentially at a lower level than if you aimed it at the audience. That is, unless you have ears in your knees.

 

The problem with that is that my amp will be behind the piano with respect to the congregation. How will that affect what the congregation hears?

 

If you (and the soundperson) are doing it right, not very much, if at all. Remember, the stage volume is for your benefit and the benefit of the other musicians. It ONLY needs to be loud enough for you folks to hear yourselves, and ideally it should not be so loud as to significantly interfere with the FOH mix. If it is, the soundperson can't do their job - your excessive SPL ties their hands.

 

I figure it can't be good. I'll probably lose any high end.

 

It would have a somewhat detrimental effect IF you were running it alone, without any PA support, but that's not the case...

 

My amp has a line going to the PA so there should be sound coming through those speakers and maybe it will work all right but maybe not.

 

I assume you guys do sound checks and have weekly rehearsals, right? It might be a good idea to talk to the soundperson and see if you can come in a bit early (or stay a bit late) and experiment with your setup a bit so you can both find what works best.

 

 

Another option is to replace the Schecter and get a semi hollow so I'll hear more of the guitar with or without an amp.

 

I wouldn't count on that. I use a thinline hollowbody (a Casino) as one of my main / go-to guitars, and once you're running it into something as modestly powered as a Princeton with the volume set to 3, you can pretty much forget about "hearing it" acoustically.

 

A Guitar Center about 20 miles away has a used Epiphone Dot Studio that would probably be as good as anything, although I'm not at that point yet. My final option is to give up on playing electric--at least in church--and just play my acoustic full time. Suggestions are welcome.

 

Some churches / pastors / congregation members just don't like the sound of electric guitar. I'm not sure if that's your situation, but if it is, any audibility might annoy them, and you'll probably never win that battle. If that's the case, acoustic may be a better choice... but if it's strictly a volume and monitoring issue, you have a lot of possible alternatives that could potentially lower the stage level of your electric rig while still allowing you to hear yourself, and allowing the soundperson to integrate your contributions into the overall FOH mix.

 

Aim the amp towards you, and away from the audience. Angle it upwards so it is pointing right towards your head.

 

Use a plexiglass shield around the (rear of the) amp to help prevent it from radiating sound directly towards the audience. This will be more beneficial if you're using an amp / cab with an open back.

 

Consider switching to IEMs. If the soundperson has multiple monitor mixes / sends, and you have your own, ask for "more me" in your monitors.

[Phil O'Keefe]

[DeepEnd]

You guys need to get a drummer. That way everybody will start complaining about him.

 

 

 

We've had two drummers but they both left for different reasons. Several years ago, when the praise band was strictly acoustic, a guy joined who played an ES225 through a Twin Reverb. I thought his rig was too loud but nobody else complained because they were excited that the praise band had someone playing an electric guitar!

 

. . . I assume you guys do sound checks and have weekly rehearsals' date=' right? It might be a good idea to talk to the soundperson and see if you can come in a bit early (or stay a bit late) and experiment with your setup a bit so you can both find what works best. [img']http://www.harmonycentral.com/forum/core/images/smilies/idea.gif[/img] . . .

The sound guy is very good but no, we don't really do sound checks. That's a huge part of the problem. He lives behind the church and rolls out of bed in time to show up 5 minutes before the service starts and get the pastor set up with her wireless mike. I think he's used to doing stuff on the fly and it usually works well enough. Meanwhile, we rehearse an hour before the service or occasionally the day before.

My amp is on a stand that tilts it upward so it would be pointed at me. I've experimented and there's room for it next to me. I'll try it that way and run a line to the PA. Frankly, at this point, as long as I can hear my guitar, I don't care too much whether anyone else can or not.

[Tom Mc1]

I also play in a worship team and sometimes get the same complaint of being too loud. Much of the newer contemporary Christian music is loud with a pop or rock feel. I have to be careful when I kick in the distortion on some of these types of songs. As far as amp settings, I only turn it up just enough for me to hear what I'm playing. I share a monitor with the keyboardist so that I can get an idea of how the mix sounds through the house speakers. Some times a vocalist will stand in the pews to check sound during rehearsal.

How are you grouped. Are you on a stage where you can spread out or like one worship team I was in and grouped in a corner? The first worship team I played in was grouped in a corner. We had to rely on tweeking our sound to make it pleasant for the congregation. The group that I play in now is spread across a stage. All of the amps, vocals, and keyboard are miked. The keyboard, bass and my electric, are on one side and the acoustic guitar, lead guitar and drums are on the other. The vocals are in the middle. Normally I can't hear what the acoustic and lead are doing except through the monitor. We keep our amps turned down and let the sound guy do the mix to the monitors and house speakers.

The only complaint that we get is that the drums are too loud. He has been playing for over 40 years and his hearing is shot.

Maybe it's not the music that's too loud but the style that you are playing. Congregations can be very unforgiving when it comes to the type of music that is played in church.

Set a time to rehearse during the week before service. Then practice again before service. Worship teams need to learn at least 100-200 songs that they play through out the year, not to mention the new material added to the mix and the special music due to the time of the year (how I hate playing Christmas music, not guitar friendly). This will help not only to tweek your sound but to be a better team.

 

[knotty]

Isnt this covered in the bible somewhere? Surely it has an electric guitar section?

[DeepEnd]

. . . How are you grouped. Are you on a stage where you can spread out or like one worship team I was in and grouped in a corner? . . .

. . . Maybe it's not the music that's too loud but the style that you are playing. Congregations can be very unforgiving when it comes to the type of music that is played in church. . . .

. . . Worship teams need to learn at least 100-200 songs that they play through out the year, not to mention the new material added to the mix and the special music due to the time of the year (how I hate playing Christmas music, not guitar friendly). This will help not only to tweek your sound but to be a better team.

We're jammed into a corner, down below and to one side of the singers, who are on a raised platform, in what I sometimes call the "praise band ghetto." At one point, we were more spread out but there was a complaint that one of the guitarists was in front of the singers! (Gasp!) Mike, the guitarist in question, is short and I don't think it would have bothered anything to have him out front. We have a pretty open congregation in terms of musical styles but we are fairly traditional.

For what it's worth, I don't mind playing Christmas music that's appropriate to guitars and such. "Silent Night" was written for guitar, of course. "What Child Is This?" works, especially with acoustic guitar. And we've done "Little Baby Jesus" for the last few years. It works well with a surf vibe. But yeah, most traditional Christmas stuff doesn't work well. We also play traditional hymns during the year, which, to me, defeats the purpose of a praise band, which is to do contemporary stuff. "In The Garden" just isn't meant to be done on electric guitar.

 

Isnt this covered in the bible somewhere? Surely it has an electric guitar section?

The first mention of stringed instruments is Genesis 4:21, about Jubal, the great great great great great grandson of Adam. It says he was "the father of all who play stringed instruments and pipes." Unfortunately, there was no electricity back then so amps weren't a problem. That didn't happen until St. Leo brought down amps from Heaven.

[Tomm Williams]

I've followed your posts fairly intently concerning this as it seems (somewhat) common in church settings for reasons that elude me. I also attend church but don't participate in the music as the personality dynamics are as obvious as the nose on Jimmy Durante

 

As both a knowledgeable sound man and guitarist, achieving a useful (yet not obnoxious) level on ANY instrument just shouldn't be this painful. It sounds to me like you've tried a number of logical answers in an attempt to fix this problem.

 

Now of course if any of us were there to see/hear this for ourselves, something else might be observed so all opinions are a bit of conjecture.

 

Im wondering if you're not suffering from "incurable prima donna syndrome" and it wouldn't matter if you shut your amp off.?

[DeepEnd]

. . . Im wondering if you're not suffering from "incurable prima donna syndrome" and it wouldn't matter if you shut your amp off.?

I'm not sure who the prima donna is in this case but I hope it's not me. In any event, I think you may be right about shutting off the amp. I've actually done that (during rehearsal) and threatened to do it again more recently (i.e., to just stand there and make the proper motions) but the Music Director said she wants me to participate. I believe her but the trouble is, I'm not sure how much participation I can do (at least on electric) if I can't eventually get to the point that I can hear what the heck I'm playing.

[WRGKMC]

I'd just use one of these and point it at your ears, then turn down. If need be, take a piece of paneling and Velcro the back of the amp closed to cut down rear projection.

 

You can always go amp-less. Get a multi effects pedal with a headphone out and wear one of those 1/2 headphones that fit over one ear, then use the line out on the pedal to feed the PA. You'd be able to hear yourself clear as day and the sound man can dial up the rest, but without a stage monitor, the other people would only hear you through the PA.

 

I've run my multieffects pedal into one of those small powered speakers like this.

Should do the trick nicely. You can even run them into a pair of computer monitors if you want. Doesn't matter much cause the effects pedal if what gives you all the modeled guitar tones and effects. I run mine into my studio monitors all the time and I can adjust the volume all the way down and still sound great. The key is to put them on a stand where they are at ear level.

 

 

[Tomm Williams]

I'm not sure who the prima donna is in this case but I hope it's not me. In any event, I think you may be right about shutting off the amp. I've actually done that (during rehearsal) and threatened to do it again more recently (i.e., to just stand there and make the proper motions) but the Music Director said she wants me to participate. I believe her but the trouble is, I'm not sure how much participation I can do (at least on electric) if I can't eventually get to the point that I can hear what the heck I'm playing.

 

No wasn't referring to you but as I recall there was one (or two?) primary complainants that seemed impossible to satisfy? Unless you're near totally deaf, and all you're doing is turning up to the point you can hear yourself.............................. I cannot understand where there would be an issue for anyone else ?? Although some of the suggestions made here concerning the purchase of additional gear have been good ones, I'd hate to see you have to go that far to placate a diva (IF that's the actual situation). I would not give up on a cost-free answer just yet.

[DeepEnd]

I'd just use one of these and point it at your ears, then turn down. If need be, take a piece of paneling and Velcro the back of the amp closed to cut down rear projection.

I have an amp stand, thanks. It tilts the amp back and holds it about 6-8" off the floor. Looks like this:

The back of the amp will be facing an electronic upright piano so I doubt rear projection will be an issue.

 

No wasn't referring to you but as I recall there was one (or two?) primary complainants that seemed impossible to satisfy? Unless you're near totally deaf, and all you're doing is turning up to the point you can hear yourself.............................. I cannot understand where there would be an issue for anyone else ?? Although some of the suggestions made here concerning the purchase of additional gear have been good ones, I'd hate to see you have to go that far to placate a diva (IF that's the actual situation). I would not give up on a cost-free answer just yet.

Yeah, "Rhonda," the lead vocalist, has been the most outspoken but the latest complaint came from the pastor. We didn't have time for a sound check that morning because the kids needed to rehearse the Christmas pageant and it may in fact have been a tad loud but even then I could hear my amp fairly well but it wasn't remotely "loud" from where I was standing. Frankly, I don't get it either but I'm going to go ahead with the amp on a stand behind the piano idea. A line out with a fixed volume not dependent on the gain setting of the amp would probably be a good idea but that would mean a new amp and yes, I also chafe at the idea of spending more money than necessary. As I said before, I don't care if anyone else can hear it at all any more.

[Grant Harding]

I'd personally put the amp so close to my head and so quiet that nobody can hear me. Then if they ask me to turn up I'd make them almost beg me to do it, so next time the guitar haters pipe up you can throw your hands up and tell them to talk to the sound man. Suggest that while they're doing that they should ask them to turn down the lead vocal mic.

 

Actually - I'd have left to focus my energy on a "genre" that uses electric guitar as a primary instrument rather than a prop.

[1001gear]

I noe, make recorded from audence. Most of us hear better den reed.

[Hound]

A charitable christian audience eh. What ya gonna do?

[hellion_213]

Who's doing the most complaining? You mention being tucked into a corner, so, are the folks nearby complaining? Or is it the audience nearest the PA speakers? I assume you're PA speakers are overhead and angled. Does the soundman reside in a booth in the balcony, or in the back? He/she may not be able to properly mix simply out of their location. May not hurt to soundcheck in multiple locations. Crossfiring the two guitar amps across your stage, rather than aimed at the crowd, may be an option. Mic'ing the amp instead of a direct line, or isolation cabinet - mic'd amp - headphone out for you could be a viable option, though it really shouldn't come to that. Do you have any small recorders? Like the Zoom, can't remember the model #, like mentioned, you can record a rehearsal and get an idea of what's happening in the audience. Maybe the tones a little bright/harsh. Are you and the other Guitar player mimicing each other or harmonizing? Might be the other player, and not so much your sound that's actually the issue.

[DeepEnd]

. . . Actually - I'd have left to focus my energy on a "genre" that uses electric guitar as a primary instrument rather than a prop.

Update: I played my electric Sunday with the amp behind the piano and aimed at me. No complaints so I think I've found the solution. I do understand koiwoi's response but Christian music is what I love. Mind, the people can be a bit much but the music is what does it for me.