Members Freeman Keller Posted June 11, 2015 Author Members Share Posted June 11, 2015 Kind of quiet in the old electrical guitar forum these days, lots of stuff going on in my shop. Got two little parlors in various states of confusion, several interesting repairs lately and the ES-335 keeps on moving forward. I'm going to take a little vacation, visit family and watch my grand daughter graduate, but I thought I would do one more installment before I leave. Starting to think about the neck. Got out a nice piece of mahogany and made some marks on it and on the body where they will come together One thing that I learned from my research is that apparently there are three generations of neck on 335's. They apparently started out with long tenons that extended all the way thru the pickup cavity, then there are some short tenon guitars that seem to be prone to problems, then they talk about returning to the long tenon. One of the scariest things I've seen is this video [video=youtube;hiE0HG05Htk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiE0HG05Htk My plans show a 1-1/4 inch tenon but I've made templates for 1-1/2 which is what I used on the Les Pauls. No reason not to use that here. I'm also going to make sure that the neck sits tight against the bottom of the pocket. So lets make the pocket My templates are pretty thick since I use a 1 inch long router bit and make shallow cuts, each cut a little deeper until I'm close to where I want it. The bid kind of walks its way down the template each time I adjust the depth. Also notice that I've used double stick carpet tape but I've also screwed the template into the area the will be the neck pickup. BTW the top is angled at 2 degrees so the pocket will be also. Finally, here it is. On that note I'll be gone for about a week - see you all then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Preacher Posted June 14, 2015 Members Share Posted June 14, 2015 but I also know that I have to get my fat fingers in the f-holes to do some wiring (I hope you are looking forward to this as much as I am). So I opened the slots on the 175 template a bit and decided it would be just fine. Stuck it on with some double stick carpet tape' date='[/quote'] Yikes...that's right... After that I need a nice cold adult beverage... And that looks great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Preacher Posted June 14, 2015 Members Share Posted June 14, 2015 One thing that I learned from my research is that apparently there are three generations of neck on 335's. They apparently started out with long tenons that extended all the way thru the pickup cavity, then there are some short tenon guitars that seem to be prone to problems, then they talk about returning to the long tenon. One of the scariest things I've seen is this video [video=youtube;hiE0HG05Htk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiE0HG05Htk :eek2: Oh geez.... My plans show a 1-1/4 inch tenon but I've made templates for 1-1/2 which is what I used on the Les Pauls. No reason not to use that here. I'm also going to make sure that the neck sits tight against the bottom of the pocket. So lets make the pocket My templates are pretty thick since I use a 1 inch long router bit and make shallow cuts, each cut a little deeper until I'm close to where I want it. The bid kind of walks its way down the template each time I adjust the depth. Also notice that I've used double stick carpet tape but I've also screwed the template into the area the will be the neck pickup. BTW the top is angled at 2 degrees so the pocket will be also. Finally, here it is. On that note I'll be gone for about a week - see you all then Great stuff, thanks for explaining your methodology, and that continues to look great. Interesting comment about the angle of the top. Hope the trip is going well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted June 18, 2015 Author Members Share Posted June 18, 2015 Back to work. When Gibson or Martin or lots of others make necks they take a big piece of mahogany and saw the general shape of the neck out of it. I think that is pretty wasteful of wood and it creates a very week head stock - the grain runs at an angle to the head. When you combine that with the large cavity that is routed for the truss rod adjusting nut its no wonder that many Gibsons break at that area. I prefer to make what is called a "scarf joined" neck (and I prefer to make my truss rod adjuster route as small as possible, we'll see that in a few days). For a scarf joined neck I can take a piece of mahogany that is only one inch thick (by three inches wide), saw the headstock piece off at 17 degrees That gizmo in the background is a digital protractor - my son gave it to me for Christmas when he saw the old one I had been using for years. Now I can be accurate to fractions of a degree when things don't fit. I take that headstock piece and thin it to one half inch thickness, flip it over and glue it on Take one more piece of scrap mahogany and glue it on to make the neck heel As usual, let the glue cure over night Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gardo Posted June 18, 2015 Members Share Posted June 18, 2015 A man can never have enough clamps. Strong and solid fpr sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted June 18, 2015 Author Members Share Posted June 18, 2015 AR glue acts as a very good lubricant when it first applies and pieces want to skate around on each other. Appling the clamps just seems to make them move worse - its really important to dry fit things and then make cauls that hold them in the proper orientation. There is a little block of wood at the end of the headstock in the first picture - if that wasn't there the headstock would go shooting off as the clamps were tightened. (As me how I know that....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mrbrown49 Posted June 18, 2015 Members Share Posted June 18, 2015 Outstanding! Really enjoying seeing this one come together freeman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted June 20, 2015 Author Members Share Posted June 20, 2015 To keep the beat going a couple of more neck pictures. First, pretty simple but pretty basic, sand the top of the neck perfectly flat Now, while its still square, set up the router table to reference off one side and route the truss rod channel I'm using an LMI double acting rod - it has a very small adjuster and doesn't require the big hole in the headstock that weakens it If you study that picture a bit you'll see how the end grain of the headstock piece meets up with the neck itself - in my opinion that is a pretty strong orientation. Probably enough for today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted June 21, 2015 Members Share Posted June 21, 2015 Looking great so far! Dumb questions: What grit do you sand gluing surfaces to? How tight do you clamp? Can a join fail just by clamping too hard and squeezing out too much glue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted June 21, 2015 Author Members Share Posted June 21, 2015 Looking great so far! Dumb questions: What grit do you sand gluing surfaces to? How tight do you clamp? Can a join fail just by clamping too hard and squeezing out too much glue? Not dumb questions at all. At this point I'm usually sanding to 120 or 150 or 180 - my feeling (altho I have no supporting evidence) is that you want a little grain or sanding marks showing for the glue to "get in to". Clamping is totally by feel - I look for glue to squeeze out of the joint evenly all around. Some of the smaller pieces are pretty delicate - I try to use a caul that will distribute the clamping force without damaging the piece. For something like the neck I try to clamp pretty hard. A good glue joint rarely fails - its usually stronger than the parent wood. When I see a failure (lately its been bridges on acoustic guitars) its pretty obvious that either the surfaces weren't prepared properly (amazing how often there is still finish on the joined area) or insufficient glue was used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted June 22, 2015 Members Share Posted June 22, 2015 Thanks for that! Very useful info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted June 23, 2015 Author Members Share Posted June 23, 2015 A guitar neck is a study in angles and curves, but there are a few things that need to be done while is square and straight - namely the tenon. Lots of marks and measurements and stuff like that Some of it can be cut on the band saw but the cheeks of the heel are at 88 degrees and need to be cut with a hand saw Here is the tenon roughed out and, hot damn, it fits the pocket we cut in the body Even more or less lines up with the center line The neck is standing about an 1/8 proud of the body - that gives me something to work with as I set the final neck angle and string line to the bridge. For right now I'll leave it high - its much easier to lower it than bring it up it its too low. More of that down the road... I like to reward myself when things work out - where is my bottle opener? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gardo Posted June 23, 2015 Members Share Posted June 23, 2015 Thanks for walking us through step by step I feel a sense of involvemennt ,if only as a spectator and hopefully an encourager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members billybilly Posted June 23, 2015 Members Share Posted June 23, 2015 The steps you show us make it look easy, I know it isn't. Nice work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members knotty Posted June 23, 2015 Members Share Posted June 23, 2015 If it was me there would be pics titled, heres the plug I filled the incorrectly drilled holes with, this is where I had to saw the bit off I glued wrongly, heres the packing to make my joint fit, etc, etc. Finally heres the bonfire it helped light! .png.197c47f720636f02390cc2b0a33804da.png' alt='smiley-veryhappy'> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gardo Posted June 23, 2015 Members Share Posted June 23, 2015 If it was me there would be pics titled' date=' heres the plug I filled the incorrectly drilled holes with, this is where I had to saw the bit off I glued wrongly, heres the packing to make my joint fit, etc, etc. Finally heres the bonfire it helped light! .png.197c47f720636f02390cc2b0a33804da.png' alt='smiley-veryhappy'>[/quote'] Don't feel bad ,even the best mess up as per the video on the Gibson ES 335 neck joint that was posted earlier. https://youtu.be/hiE0HG05Htk When I was taking woodwoorking classes the instructor told us that the difference between a good woodworker and a bad one is knowing how to hide your mistakes. I took that to heart and apply the same logic to playing guitar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted June 24, 2015 Author Members Share Posted June 24, 2015 I would be making a lot more progress (and mistakes) but I've also got these going http://www.harmonycentral.com/forum/...air-of-parlors And then someone calls me up and leads me astray and I don't get anything done I did trim the sides of the neck down to approximate size and trued it up a little on the belt sander still oversize but a better fit at the pocket and now I can start shaping the neck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 I really enjoy looking at the pictures of your projects in-process Freeman! How do you typically shape a neck? I mean, what tools do you use to do it with, and how do you get the symmetrical shape and profile you want? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 If it was me there would be pics titled' date=' heres the plug I filled the incorrectly drilled holes with, this is where I had to saw the bit off I glued wrongly, heres the packing to make my joint fit, etc, etc. Finally heres the bonfire it helped light! .png.197c47f720636f02390cc2b0a33804da.png' alt='smiley-veryhappy'>[/quote'] It sounds like our woodworking "skills" are about equal knotty! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted June 25, 2015 Author Members Share Posted June 25, 2015 I really enjoy looking at the pictures of your projects in-process Freeman! How do you typically shape a neck? I mean, what tools do you use to do it with, and how do you get the symmetrical shape and profile you want? Come back in a few days.... All will be revealed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted June 29, 2015 Author Members Share Posted June 29, 2015 I've been neglecting the 335 - been working on the parlors and out having fun. Lets get back to it. Before I start building the neck lets talk about a few parameters. This is one of the places you truly can customize a guitar - pick the width and scale and radius and shape of the back. I have my own preferences but if I'm building for you I want it to fit YOUR preferences. In this case we had already decided to stay with the standard Gibson scale length of 24.75 and radius of 12 inches. The body joins the neck at the 19th fret on a 335. One of the parameters is that if we use a standard ToM bridge the string spacing at the bridge will be 2-1/32 and the standard nut of 1-11/16 will give the width of the neck (and body) at the 19th fret of 2.200 inches. That number is golden - the body is already that wide and cannot be made narrower (it is very thin veneer right there, I would sand thru) so the neck must be made to fit the body. The other important parameters are the depth of the neck at two places (I'll choose the nut or first fret and the 12th fret for convenience) and the general shape (again, at those locations). I sent all this stuff along with a copy of my plans for a '58 'burst LP to the person I'm building for - he cut out the cross sections of the neck and tried fitting them to a couple of his guitars. Fortunately he also had access to a set of calipers so he was able to measure the necks he likes and send me that information (metric, which might be a small clue to who he is.....) OK, so the critical measurement are the width at nut and body (19), the depth at nut and 12, and general shape at nut and 12. Armed with that I first made the fretboard. I shamelessly use premade fretboards. I build so many different scale lengths and radius (mandolin to baritone) that I've just never taken the time to make the miter boxes. Thirty bucks from LMI gets me a perfect board. First I cut the taper - I'm doing the 335 and both parlors at the same time I always cut things oversize and work them down to finished size - here I'm taking very thin cuts on the router table until the board is exactly the correct size (minus the width of the binding materials) You will hear me say many times that it is easier to take more wood off than to put it back on. Crappy picture but I'm getting closer. I've got two little pieces of the binding material on each side of the fretboard Slip the neck into the body and cut off the end of the fretboard leaving just a slight gap between it and the pickup location. Test fit a piece of binding in the gap To glue the binding on I first put waxed paper on the work bench, then clamp two pieces of wood along side the fretboard. Coat the binding with CA glue, slide it between the wood and tap it down to make sure everything is flat and tight Glue the other side on in the same fashion When the glue has cured I put the little piece on the end of the board and scrape the binding back level with the wood Bingo, we've got a fretboard. Now we can proceed with the neck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members knotty Posted June 29, 2015 Members Share Posted June 29, 2015 So much patience, and I cant even be bothered finishing this sen....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted July 2, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 2, 2015 More preparation for the actual carving. Phil asked how I get the profile of the back of the neck - if possible I try to duplicate an existing guitar that I (or my customer) likes. I have plans for quite a few of the guitars that I build and most plans have two cross sections take of the neck - usually the nut or first fret and the 12th. It is very easy to copy that part of the plans, glue it to some sort of stiff material and cut it out. That makes a very good template to check the curvature as I carve. If someone has a neck that they really like I can make a template from it. I've got this cool little device that is used for duplicating molding - it works perfectly well for necks too (you've already seen it used to make the templates for the top curves). Here I'm pressing it gently onto a nice old Goldtop Les Paul You can see how it humps up above the neck. Sketch that on a piece of paper, make a copy and glue it on some 1/4 MDF or plastic and bingo, you've got a perfect template I'll also measure the width and depth at those locations and write them down. Since the fretboard is 1/4 inch thick I'll also subtract that while I'm working on the neck itself. OK ready to carve. Phil also asked about the tools I use - I've got a pretty good arsenal and use a variety of cutting, shaping and sanding tools The green thing is a "spoke shave" (they were once used to make wagon wheel spokes) and cuts as it is drawn towards you. It should be one of the best tools but I've never really mastered it - I prefer my two little planes for the shaft of the neck and a chisel or two for the headstock and heel. Clamp the neck in various ways to the bench (again, if I was doing the same neck over and over I'd build a jig to hold it) and just start removing wood. I try to use long strokes of the block plane to take off wood on both sides as evenly as I can, then pare the curves of the head and heel. Keep moving it around the bench to gain access - make a few cuts and check the thickness I guess I don't have a good picture of checking the curve with the templates, but I keep slipping them on and seeing if I'm getting close. The process makes a whole lot of shavings and chips I've got another little template for the headstock shape - it was taken from some LP plans and then modified a bit so it doesn't look totally Gibson (I removed the dimple from the top and change the sides a bit. Clamp it on, run the router around it, mark the tuner holes and pretty soon the neck has a head At this point the neck is close but the final shaping will be done after the fretboard is glued on. It is a few thousands wider and deeper but its always easier to remove more wood than put it back on. We'll put it away for a while and go back to work on the body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members t_e_l_e Posted July 2, 2015 Members Share Posted July 2, 2015 Phil also asked about the tools I use - I've got a pretty good arsenal and use a variety of cutting, shaping and sanding tools *shock* *lol* first thought was chainsaw neck massacre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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