Members 1001gear Posted April 30, 2015 Members Share Posted April 30, 2015 The frequency beating gets amplified considerably as the distortion goes up so intervalic relationships need to be calibrated with that in mind. If this relates to anything anybody said, cool. If not it's more or less important. Thank you. I'm 1001gear and I approve of this message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted April 30, 2015 Members Share Posted April 30, 2015 I was afraid you were saying that. Just how would an amp change the pitch of a note? Amplitude, phase, sure. Of course, there are also effects that rely on shifts in pitch. But an amp changing a note's pitch? Maybe this is something that happens with tube amps? If it is, I've never heard of it. There are things in an amp chain that can vary pitch or at lest exacerbate an instruments innate flaws. A chorus pedal can actually shift the pitch up and down depending on its depth and wave form. Tone settings can tweaked to accentuate the open strings harmonics which may be different then fretted notes and produce an aural illusion of a string being out of tune. Pickup distance and string picking intensity can create a number of Doppler effects that can make strings appear to be out of tune. Louder notes tend to be flatter to the ears vs softer notes. A tuner plugged directly into the pickups comes before most of those effects. If the tuner is accurate all those other side effects should be minimal. Some will however still be there no matter what because strings do not produce linear pitch responses. Its always a matter of give and take with stringed instruments. We should all envy keyboard players who have fixed pitches and not have to deal with string stretching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mr Temporary Posted April 30, 2015 Members Share Posted April 30, 2015 If we have to accept the weakest link in this chain of errors, is 3 cent swing in measured tuning per string a real concern? The figure I've always read is that the resolution in human hearing is about 5-6 cents. I'm not an expert on psychoacoustics, and I can't tell you how anybody came to that number, but that's what I've always read. This comes up occasionally when discussing the accuracy required to slot fretboards, various fret calculation methods, intonation, etc. Speaking out of my ignorance, I could be convinced that musicians may be able to discern at a higher resolution. Listening to two pitches played at the same time may help improve the perception at higher resolutions as well. At least you can hear the beats. Then there's the whole issue of stretch, and temperament has also been addressed here. By the time I get my paws on the neck, a 5-6 cent difference is thrown out the window anyway. That being said, I like my Pitchblack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted April 30, 2015 Members Share Posted April 30, 2015 Perfect signal chain, amp and speakers? Interesting. We both know that's not what I'm saying. What I asked was how an amp might affect pitch. WRGKMC weighed in about tone controls affecting tonal balance, chorus pedals (both of which I already mentioned), and the Doppler effect but nobody has said anything about how an amp specifically can affect pitch. If you know something I don't, please tell me. If you just have a gut feeling, explain your reasoning. Inquiring minds want to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted April 30, 2015 Members Share Posted April 30, 2015 I don't think anyone's suggesting an amp actually changes the note pitch. There is a Doppler effect between loud and soft sounds that can trick the ears. This is mainly an air pressure thing. An amp can also mask tuning issues with some settings or make minor string beating appear to be an elephant in the room depending on how its dialed up. One trick you can use, is to crank the mids way up, then the lows and most of the highs down. Tune it up while its like that and all the tuning flaws stand out. Then do the opposite, turn your mids down, highs and lows up. chances are all of those minor string variations disappear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members knotty Posted April 30, 2015 Members Share Posted April 30, 2015 We both know that's not what I'm saying. What I asked was how an amp might affect pitch. WRGKMC weighed in about tone controls affecting tonal balance, chorus pedals (both of which I already mentioned), and the Doppler effect but nobody has said anything about how an amp specifically can affect pitch. If you know something I don't, please tell me. If you just have a gut feeling, explain your reasoning. Inquiring minds want to know. To be honest I dont know what you are saying. I never mentioned an amp specifically changing the pitch. Although I contest that NONE amplify it 100% accurate. I was talking about ALL the inherent faults in the total signal chain. When you look at it holistically how much does 3 cents really matter? I am asking the question not profering the answer. There are lots of singers I enjoy listening to who are far from pitch perfect. I am sure many of the guitar pieces I enjoy are not pitch perfect either. EG. Who live at Leeds. The whole woodstock album. Etc etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted April 30, 2015 Members Share Posted April 30, 2015 To be honest I dont know what you are saying. I never mentioned an amp specifically changing the pitch. Although I contest that NONE amplify it 100% accurate. . . . Here's what you've said so far: I know people will pile on and accuse me of having cloth ears etc but isnt +/- 3% good enough? The limitations of the instrument, your technique and the limitations of your amplification system are going to do more damage than that. Arent they? . . . I was alluding more to the deficiencies of the guitar as an instrument. Tempered tuning is an issue in itself to the extent you could argue tuning one string relative to another is more important than tuning each string individually. Add to that the variances in fretting pressure and atmospherics and you possibly compound the problem. Then start pushing the signal through an amp and you have more errors built in. I know we want to minimise those variances at each stage. If we have to accept the weakest link in this chain of errors, is 3 cent swing in measured tuning per string a real concern? I dont know or have a firm view, just putting It out there. We were initially talking about tuning so when you referred to "the limitations of your amplification system" I thought the "damage" you were talking about was related to pitch somehow. Naturally, amps and speakers are not 100% accurate. That was never the issue. Or anyway, I never thought it was. There's distortion, both harmonic and intermodulation, amplitude/frequency response errors, phase shifts, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted April 30, 2015 Members Share Posted April 30, 2015 Polytune 2 is on my shopping list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members knotty Posted April 30, 2015 Members Share Posted April 30, 2015 Here's what you've said so far: We were initially talking about tuning so when you referred to "the limitations of your amplification system" I thought the "damage" you were talking about was related to pitch somehow. Naturally, amps and speakers are not 100% accurate. That was never the issue. Or anyway, I never thought it was. There's distortion, both harmonic and intermodulation, amplitude/frequency response errors, phase shifts, etc. And your point is? Apart from poor comprehension and getting the wrong end of the stick? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted May 1, 2015 Members Share Posted May 1, 2015 And your point is? Apart from poor comprehension and getting the wrong end of the stick? Beyond recognizing your inability to communicate effectively, not much. BTW, on behalf of the OP, thanks for hijacking the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members knotty Posted May 1, 2015 Members Share Posted May 1, 2015 Beyond recognizing your inability to communicate effectively, not much. BTW, on behalf of the OP, thanks for hijacking the thread. And there was me thinking the thread was a grown up discusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bucksstudent Posted May 1, 2015 Members Share Posted May 1, 2015 WE NEED BLUEBERRY MUFFINS IN HERE, STAT! YOU TAKE A MUFFIN! YOU TAKE A MUFFIN! AND YOU TAKE A MUFFIN! WE ALL HAVE MUFFINS! I like my Korg tuner, but I mostly use my Boss that's on my pedalboard. I'm beyond really caring how accurate they are. I question my ears efficiency already after years of theory training and playing various instruments only to rely on the same instincts I've had since the beginning. That's partially why my music is unique, but I often wonder if I'm just out of my mind like Daniel Johnston and can't tell the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1001gear Posted May 1, 2015 Members Share Posted May 1, 2015 High frequency loss'll do it. Cant hear where the overtones clash, can't tune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted May 1, 2015 Members Share Posted May 1, 2015 And there was me thinking the thread was a grown up discusion. Yes, let's talk about maturity. I can't count the number of times I've said "Excuse me" to someone who bumped into me. Or appologized to someone who was clearly in the wrong. This is what mature people do. It's the grease that allows us to function as a society. So I'll do that in your case. I'm sorry your post was misleading and created the potential for confusion. I'm sorry you didn't use any of multiple opportunities to clarify the confusion. I'm sorry you decided to post something that was off topic. I'm sorry that, when all this was pointed out to you, you chose to be an ass. I'm sorry that, even now, I'm not sure of your point. You seem to be saying that, if my amp sounds bad enough, I won't notice if my guitar is out of tune? I thought this was a grown up discussion too until you proved otherwise so I'm sorry for that as well. Bucksstudent: Sorry but I don't think there are enough muffins to resolve this situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members knotty Posted May 1, 2015 Members Share Posted May 1, 2015 Yes, let's talk about maturity. I can't count the number of times I've said "Excuse me" to someone who bumped into me. Or appologized to someone who was clearly in the wrong. This is what mature people do. It's the grease that allows us to function as a society. So I'll do that in your case. I'm sorry your post was misleading and created the potential for confusion. I'm sorry you didn't use any of multiple opportunities to clarify the confusion. I'm sorry you decided to post something that was off topic. I'm sorry that, when all this was pointed out to you, you chose to be an ass. I'm sorry that, even now, I'm not sure of your point. You seem to be saying that, if my amp sounds bad enough, I won't notice if my guitar is out of tune? I thought this was a grown up discussion too until you proved otherwise so I'm sorry for that as well. Bucksstudent: Sorry but I don't think there are enough muffins to resolve this situation. And there was me thinking the thread was a grown up discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RGfretter Posted May 1, 2015 Members Share Posted May 1, 2015 Tuning seems to be so hard, according to this thread. My head hurts. I will have to play some less than perfect music. Not that I will be able to tell, thankfully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mikesr1963 Posted May 2, 2015 Members Share Posted May 2, 2015 I get mine at Walmart and the local drugstore. I also own a couple of Snarks, which are nice, but if the battery dies, it's a pain to go find a replacement battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1001gear Posted May 2, 2015 Members Share Posted May 2, 2015 Rayovacs at Walmart for sane quantities and Duracells at Costco for cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jtr654 Posted May 2, 2015 Members Share Posted May 2, 2015 I have a Conn strobe tuner that I 've had for decades that he best and a small Korg chromatic tuner that very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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