Creation or Evolution? ( Serious question for Evolutionists....)

[cobrahead1030]

These threads have done more to separate and divide this forum than Fab, PRMike, Madison Amps, Mega7684, Musicians Friend mods and Krank put together. Worthless vehicle for nothing but more bickering, fighting and potential friends drawing lines on the sidewalk. I say the next person who posts a religeous thread be publically flogged.

unfortunately, i think you're right

personally i think it's fascinating to hear other peoples' beliefs, and i don't mind talking about mine to a degree...i think it's a good way to learn from and try to understand people

but there are a few folks who can't do so without getting heated and calling names...maybe it's easier for me because i kinda sit in the middle, and try really hard to respect people on either side...i don't particularly expect anyone to see things exactly as i do, so i'm not bothered in the least that people generally don't

[grayeyes777]

unfortunately, i think you're right personally i think it's fascinating to hear other peoples' beliefs, and i don't mind talking about mine to a degree...i think it's a good way to learn from and try to understand people but there are a few folks who can't do so without getting heated and calling names...maybe it's easier for me because i kinda sit in the middle, and try really hard to respect people on either side...i don't particularly expect anyone to see things exactly as i do, so i'm not bothered in the least that people generally don't

 

 

 

this thread has been pretty informative and thought provoking imo.... i've definitely seen some of these get out of hand though.

[rememberduane]

I'm a scientist---I have advanced degrees in biology/chemistry and medicine. There is no such thing as living matter. The matter that makes up your body (mostly carbon) is not living. The matter that is your body is not different from the matter that is your dining table. The basics of life---organic chemistry---is not a matter of opinion or of God versus science. It is fact. It is fact that the very basic reactions that create the basic building blocks of life (amino acids, and thus DNA) can be reproduced in a lab. This is not a theory---I myself have done it. Now, the big unknown is how these basic reactions lead up to ant colonies, bacteria, blue whales, oak trees, and religious zealots (j/k). But seriously, it's the process of moving from basic reactions to functioning organisms that we're trying to decipher in science. In my experience, it's only a matter of 100 years or so until we've got it figured out completely. The problem is that the average person is not a scientist, so much of natural phenomena looks like "magic" to the average person. Religion is just a form of using "magic" to explain the inexplicable. Science is the method of turning the inexplicable into the explicable, and then exploiting those facts for use. BTW, gravity is technically a theory, just like evolution. Why don't we have to teach the Biblical alternative to the theory of gravity?

[niceguy]

 

I'm definitely not a scientist so I won't attempt to go there with you, but I am a reasonable thinker... so I have this question.... did you create your lab experiment that re-created amino acids with nothing??? Everything has a begining and either something came from nothing... or God came from nothing. Religion is historical as well and not just magic... just like a judge will take an eye-witness testmony, religious miracles have been documented . smith wigglesworth is a man as of late that had many "magic" things happen in, to and through his life. Hospitals have many cases that can never be explained... aids disappearing... limbs growing back ... cancer disappearing etc. I believe that facts should be taught at school... teaching how the universe started because you believe that we'll prove it in 100 years is not acceptable. God could be taught as a theory along with gravity. I'd rather my children learn about God from me personally and in church rather than school. But if something is unknown, it should be presented that way in an educational system, and not as absolute truth.

 

 

Couple of points...

 

Of course, in my lab, I was a lowly grad student...so I didn't have access to the machinery which can make matter out of "nothing". Yes, it's true, matter can be made out of nothing. It's done in massive particle accelerators. Granted, the matter created is so miniscule and fleeting, but it's there. It's done at extremely high energy levels, and I'm not a physicist, so I can't give details, unfortunately.

 

Second, I have a hard time finding any real documentation of miracles. I'd like to see a video of a limb re-growing (to my knowledge, a severed limb has never re-grown. Maybe you can point me to some credible documentation?). Yes, cancer can go into remission when the statistics are slim, but I'd like to see documentation where stage IV metastatic lung cancer goes into remission. As a scientist, I've never read of anything like that. Same goes for AIDS---there hasn't been a single documented case of viral load dropping to zero with no medical treatment.

 

Much in science is not really known, but if we start viewing science with disdain in favor of magic just because the science is not 100% certain yet, then we'll stop pursuing science, and then we'll have no more technological progress.

 

Mankind's greatness is the result of science---that's not debatable. I don't see how Jesus or God or Muhammed or Jehovah has anything to do with Playstations, guitars, Big Muff pedals, LCD TV's, antibiotics, open heart surgery, or space travel. As far as I can tell, all of those things were accomplished with science, not Jesus.

[cobrahead1030]

Mankind's greatness is the result of science---that's not debatable. I don't see how Jesus or God or Muhammed or Jehovah has anything to do with Playstations, guitars, Big Muff pedals, LCD TV's, antibiotics, open heart surgery, or space travel. As far as I can tell, all of those things were accomplished with science, not Jesus.

 

 

 

i'm not arguing with you, just curious...do you think it's possible that god gave man the ability to create such things? that maybe he didn't just give us all that we have, but let us fend for ourselves with a little assistance?

 

personally, that's something i can't help but wonder about

[yabba]

Mankind's greatness is the result of science---that's not debatable. I don't see how Jesus or God or Muhammed or Jehovah has anything to do with Playstations, guitars, Big Muff pedals, LCD TV's, antibiotics, open heart surgery, or space travel. As far as I can tell, all of those things were accomplished with science, not Jesus.

defining what exactly "Mankind's greatness" is is totally subjective, so I'd argue that it's very debatable.

Science also brought us nuclear weapons, pollution and carpal tunnel syndrome!

(I'm not arguing against science, I've a scientist (a molecular biologist) as well. Just playing devil's advocate a bit )

[niceguy]

 

i'm not arguing with you, just curious...do you think it's possible that god gave man the ability to create such things? that maybe he didn't just give us all that we have, but let us fend for ourselves with a little assistance? personally, that's something i can't help but wonder about

 

Hmmm...that's the big unknown. But if God or whatever did imbue mankind with the ability to create these things, then why the hell does religion keep trying to stop science? Nothing has changed since Galileo was accused of heresy. NOTHING. We have a president and a majority population who has condemned billions of people to horrible death and suffering, just because they think God does not want us to use stem cells in research.

 

Personally, I have made science my way of understanding the universe--and of understanding God as well.

 

I think God gave humans such a unique, incredible ability, and I think the majority of people will always get in the way of realizing the full potential of that ability, out of fear, out of hate, whatever. It's sad.

[rememberduane]

I'm definitely not a scientist so I won't attempt to go there with you, but I am a reasonable thinker... so I have this question.... did you create your lab experiment that re-created amino acids with nothing??? Everything has a begining and either something came from nothing... or God came from nothing. Religion is historical as well and not just magic... just like a judge will take an eye-witness testmony, religious miracles have been documented. smith wigglesworth is a man as of late that had many "magic" things happen in, to and through his life. Hospitals have many cases that can never be explained... aids disappearing... limbs growing back... cancer disappearing etc. I believe that facts should be taught at school... teaching how the universe started because you believe that we'll prove it in 100 years is not acceptable. God could be taught as a theory along with gravity. I'd rather my children learn about God from me personally and in church rather than school. But if something is unknown, it should be presented that way in an educational system, and not as absolute truth.

 

 

lmfao.

[niceguy]

defining what exactly "Mankind's greatness" is is totally subjective, so I'd argue that it's very debatable. Science also brought us nuclear weapons, pollution and carpal tunnel syndrome! (I'm not arguing against science, I've a scientist (a molecular biologist) as well. Just playing devil's advocate a bit )

 

 

I agree---mankind's "greatness" also has led to nukes, napalm, Teletubbies...

[yabba]

Teletubbies...

*shudder* now there's a case for the evils of science, or the non-existance of a loving, caring god; take your pic

[EdgeOfDarkness]

I'm definitely not a scientist so I won't attempt to go there with you, but I am a reasonable thinker... so I have this question.... did you create your lab experiment that re-created amino acids with nothing??? Everything has a begining and either something came from nothing... or God came from nothing. Religion is historical as well and not just magic... just like a judge will take an eye-witness testmony, religious miracles have been documented. smith wigglesworth is a man as of late that had many "magic" things happen in, to and through his life. Hospitals have many cases that can never be explained... aids disappearing... limbs growing back... cancer disappearing etc. I believe that facts should be taught at school... teaching how the universe started because you believe that we'll prove it in 100 years is not acceptable. God could be taught as a theory along with gravity. I'd rather my children learn about God from me personally and in church rather than school. But if something is unknown, it should be presented that way in an educational system, and not as absolute truth.

This whole thread has been worth it just for this post alone.

[Alchemist]

This thread makes me sad and such:cry:

[23miles]

I'm a scientist---I have advanced degrees in biology/chemistry and medicine..... ....In my experience, it's only a matter of 100 years or so until we've got it figured out completely.

 

 

I doubt this very seriously.

But, I respect your opinion.

Life is not about just matter and energy, although it certainly is ruled by the same laws of chemistry and physics. The fundamental property of life is it's organization. Hence the codicil of Cell Theory that states elegantly that all life comes from living things. Current state of science doesn't even have the tools yet to understand this. I will agree with you that, if we can solve our horrendous overpopulation problem and the pending environmental crises, we should learn a whole lot of interesting things in the next 100 years.

But really, Know it all??? Isn't that hubris the reason we got kicked out of the garden?

[cobrahead1030]

Hmmm...that's the big unknown. But if God or whatever did imbue mankind with the ability to create these things, then why the hell does religion keep trying to stop science? Nothing has changed since Galileo was accused of heresy. NOTHING. We have a president and a majority population who has condemned billions of people to horrible death and suffering, just because they think God does not want us to use stem cells in research. Personally, I have made science my way of understanding the universe--and of understanding God as well. I think God gave humans such a unique, incredible ability, and I think the majority of people will always get in the way of realizing the full potential of that ability, out of fear, out of hate, whatever. It's sad.

for someone that believes in god...i guess it's for the same reason that we all must suffer, sometimes face pain that's unimaginable, we all get a {censored} storm of bad fortune at some point in our lives, and sometimes there never seems to be an end to it all...

perhaps he gave us the ability to find our way, i suppose if that's the case he didn't make it easy on us...fighting the battle seems to be our duty as a species

i won't get into the stem cell thing, as i have mixed feelings on that...and it's another discussion altogether

[niceguy]

 

I doubt this very seriously. But, I respect your opinion. Life is not about just matter and energy, although it certainly is ruled by the same laws of chemistry and physics. The fundamental property of life is it's organization. Hence the codicil of Cell Theory that states elegantly that all life comes from living things. Current state of science doesn't even have the tools yet to understand this. I will agree with you that, if we can solve our horrendous overpopulation problem and the pending environmental crises, we should learn a whole lot of interesting things in the next 100 years. But really, Know it all??? Isn't that hubris the reason we got kicked out of the garden?

 

No. There was no garden.

 

And I don't care if you believe that I am who I say I am. For all I can prove, I'm a 12 year old Brazilian girl. But your desire to discredit my argument on the basis that I have no education is childish and typical of religion's responses to scientific facts---please, prove anything I have said to be wrong.

 

I can't prove that I'm a scientist, but can you prove that what I've said is wrong? Can you post some facts that amino acids cannot be created in a lab? Can you show me that particle accelerators don't exist?

 

Please, show me. If you can't, then go ahead and say I have no education. In fact, call me "fatso," or make fun of my mom, because you really have no intelligent response.

 

Oh and one more thing: 100 years ago was 1907. If I told someone back in 1907 that we'd have machines circling the Earth in space which allow us to pinpoint the exact location of a person at any time (GPS), that person would not believe it. 100 years is a long time---the world will be nothing like it is right now. Jesus can't stop that.

[indespise]

I'm definitely not a scientist so I won't attempt to go there with you, but I am a reasonable thinker... so I have this question.... did you create your lab experiment that re-created amino acids with nothing??? Everything has a begining and either something came from nothing... or God came from nothing. Religion is historical as well and not just magic... just like a judge will take an eye-witness testmony, religious miracles have been documented. smith wigglesworth is a man as of late that had many "magic" things happen in, to and through his life. Hospitals have many cases that can never be explained... aids disappearing... limbs growing back... cancer disappearing etc. I believe that facts should be taught at school... teaching how the universe started because you believe that we'll prove it in 100 years is not acceptable. God could be taught as a theory along with gravity. I'd rather my children learn about God from me personally and in church rather than school. But if something is unknown, it should be presented that way in an educational system, and not as absolute truth.

 

 

What we think of a "magic" or "miracles" are things that we haven't figured out how to explain scientifically yet. Some of the more advanced recent physics concepts are getting close. Magick is something I also read into a good bit (from a Chaos perspective). I certainly won't deny that forces we don't understand exist, but I can assure you that it's not the work of a specific God- from my understanding it comes from within our own minds, the belief rather than what we're believing in.

[indespise]

unfortunately, i think you're right personally i think it's fascinating to hear other peoples' beliefs, and i don't mind talking about mine to a degree...i think it's a good way to learn from and try to understand people but there are a few folks who can't do so without getting heated and calling names...maybe it's easier for me because i kinda sit in the middle, and try really hard to respect people on either side...i don't particularly expect anyone to see things exactly as i do, so i'm not bothered in the least that people generally don't

 

 

We all see the world from our own unique perspectives.

[Ostracized]

I'm just starting this discussion, so bare with me. I have a degree in molecular biology, and I am now doing my M.Sc. in Biology.

I just want to pose the question: what is living matter? Are we talking about organic molecule? Or more specifically biological molecules? Or whole cells? Or tissues? The term "living matter" makes no sense, as molecules don't live. As far as cells evolving out of non-cells, there are very good models on how that happened.

[EdgeOfDarkness]

Maybe he is looking for antimatter.
Perhaps we are in the antiuniverse.

[yabba]

we should start a biologists club

[cobrahead1030]

We all see the world from our own unique perspectives.

 

 

i understand that, and i'm ok with it...i'm just not sure that holds true for some people

[code_blue]

Science may not have all the answers, religion is designed to have all the answers.

[boogienights]

Scientists search for "organic compounds" that make up all known living matter. All life on earth is made from these basic carbon compounds. You may hear refrences to "primordial soup" which is basically pools of these organic compounds where "life" may have begun. No one knows how, which is why we keep looking for answers. Probably the most important aspect of research into deep space, other planets, ect, is that it is really an attempt to explain how life began. Of course, it's much easier to simply say, "God did it", then put the time, thought, creativity, and effort into trying to figure it all out . It's odd that life at its epitome strives hardest to know itself. -W

 

Wow, you're such a homo!

[DeathMonkey]

one big problem is that many people who would have been taken out of the gene pool many years ago by diseases or disorders (the weak) are being kept alive and strong by our intelligence (medical advancements). i think this is a double-edged sword...on one hand were advancing our technology and health, but on the other were overpopulating the planet and weakening the gene pool.

For the record, here's the fallacy on this one - up until relatively recently, human breeding age began closer to the onset of female menarche (menstruation). So anyone who lived to 16 had a good chance of passing on their genes. Most debilitating illnesses we can mitigate are diseases that come with age, and that don't manifest until after the mid-20's - cancer, heart disease, diabetes, liver failure disorders, or MS, for example. When these manifest as childhood diseases, it is rare that the person lives long enough to pass on their genes, or remains fertile.

So on one hand, as long as we live to 16 or so, we have exactly the same basic chance to pass on our genetic failings whether we live to 35 or 105. Unless a specific trait codes for a disorder that manifests before breeding age, it is irrelevant - to our DNA, everything after our breeding is done is irrelevant. All our DNA cares about is whether or not we live long enough to produce sperm or eggs.

So to a certain extent our birth rate along with our infant mortality rate (one lowering, one raising) might have a negligible effect on the gene pool, but it is insignificant in the face of the fact that our gene pools are (generally) now so large that dangerous recessives have far less of a chance to be carried by both parents because of the scope of potential mates available - people from other cities, countries, and races are far less likely to reinforce negative genetic traits in one's own genome.

[EpiPaul03]

lmfao.

Yes, it is beyond funny how self-righteous you are.