Creation or Evolution? ( Serious question for Evolutionists....)

[EpiPaul03]

Part 2: To date, the proponents of intelligent design have not produced anything like that. No experiments with results that challenge any mainstream biological understanding. No observations from the fossil record or genomics or biogeography or comparative anatomy that undermine standard evolutionary thinking. Instead, the proponents of intelligent design use a ploy that works something like this. First you misuse or misdescribe some scientist's work. Then you get an angry rebuttal. Then, instead of dealing forthrightly with the charges leveled, you cite the rebuttal as evidence that there is a ''controversy'' to teach. Note that the trick is content-free. You can use it on any topic. ''Smith's work in geology supports my argument that the earth is flat,'' you say, misrepresenting Smith's work. When Smith responds with a denunciation of your misuse of her work, you respond, saying something like: ''See what a controversy we have here? Professor Smith and I are locked in a titanic scientific debate. We should teach the controversy in the classrooms.'' And here is the delicious part: you can often exploit the very technicality of the issues to your own advantage, counting on most of us to miss the point in all the difficult details. William Dembski, one of the most vocal supporters of intelligent design, notes that he provoked Thomas Schneider, a biologist, into a response that Dr. Dembski characterizes as ''some hair-splitting that could only look ridiculous to outsider observers.'' What looks to scientists -- and is -- a knockout objection by Dr. Schneider is portrayed to most everyone else as ridiculous hair-splitting. In short, no science. Indeed, no intelligent design hypothesis has even been ventured as a rival explanation of any biological phenomenon. This might seem surprising to people who think that intelligent design competes directly with the hypothesis of non-intelligent design by natural selection. But saying, as intelligent design proponents do, ''You haven't explained everything yet,'' is not a competing hypothesis. Evolutionary biology certainly hasn't explained everything that perplexes biologists. But intelligent design hasn't yet tried to explain anything. To formulate a competing hypothesis, you have to get down in the trenches and offer details that have testable implications. So far, intelligent design proponents have conveniently sidestepped that requirement, claiming that they have no specifics in mind about who or what the intelligent designer might be. To see this shortcoming in relief, consider an imaginary hypothesis of intelligent design that could explain the emergence of human beings on this planet: About six million years ago, intelligent genetic engineers from another galaxy visited Earth and decided that it would be a more interesting planet if there was a language-using, religion-forming species on it, so they sequestered some primates and genetically re-engineered them to give them the language instinct, and enlarged frontal lobes for planning and reflection. It worked. If some version of this hypothesis were true, it could explain how and why human beings differ from their nearest relatives, and it would disconfirm the competing evolutionary hypotheses that are being pursued. We'd still have the problem of how these intelligent genetic engineers came to exist on their home planet, but we can safely ignore that complication for the time being, since there is not the slightest shred of evidence in favor of this hypothesis. But here is something the intelligent design community is reluctant to discuss: no other intelligent-design hypothesis has anything more going for it. In fact, my farfetched hypothesis has the advantage of being testable in principle: we could compare the human and chimpanzee genomes, looking for unmistakable signs of tampering by these genetic engineers from another galaxy. Finding some sort of user's manual neatly embedded in the apparently functionless ''junk DNA'' that makes up most of the human genome would be a Nobel Prize-winning coup for the intelligent design gang, but if they are looking at all, they haven't come up with anything to report. It's worth pointing out that there are plenty of substantive scientific controversies in biology that are not yet in the textbooks or the classrooms. The scientific participants in these arguments vie for acceptance among the relevant expert communities in peer-reviewed journals, and the writers and editors of textbooks grapple with judgments about which findings have risen to the level of acceptance -- not yet truth -- to make them worth serious consideration by undergraduates and high school students. SO get in line, intelligent designers. Get in line behind the hypothesis that life started on Mars and was blown here by a cosmic impact. Get in line behind the aquatic ape hypothesis, the gestural origin of language hypothesis and the theory that singing came before language, to mention just a few of the enticing hypotheses that are actively defended but still insufficiently supported by hard facts. The Discovery Institute, the conservative organization that has helped to put intelligent design on the map, complains that its members face hostility from the established scientific journals. But establishment hostility is not the real hurdle to intelligent design. If intelligent design were a scientific idea whose time had come, young scientists would be dashing around their labs, vying to win the Nobel Prizes that surely are in store for anybody who can overturn any significant proposition of contemporary evolutionary biology. Remember cold fusion? The establishment was incredibly hostile to that hypothesis, but scientists around the world rushed to their labs in the effort to explore the idea, in hopes of sharing in the glory if it turned out to be true. Instead of spending more than $1 million a year on publishing books and articles for non-scientists and on other public relations efforts, the Discovery Institute should finance its own peer-reviewed electronic journal. This way, the organization could live up to its self-professed image: the doughty defenders of brave iconoclasts bucking the establishment. For now, though, the theory they are promoting is exactly what George Gilder, a long-time affiliate of the Discovery Institute, has said it is: ''Intelligent design itself does not have any content.'' Since there is no content, there is no ''controversy'' to teach about in biology class. But here is a good topic for a high school course on current events and politics: Is intelligent design a hoax? And if so, how was it perpetrat-ed? Daniel C. Dennett, a professor of philosophy at Tufts University, is the author of ''Freedom Evolves'' and ''Darwin's Dangerous Idea.''

[EdgeOfDarkness]

I am starting a new Religion..To gain Power, Politics and Money. You will believe in my god or forever spend Eternity in a Vat of crap while fat stinky girls sit on your face.
First order of business , send me your money.

[rememberduane]

Half the {censored}ing {censored} you post here doesn't belong either, yet you're constantly found running your mouth and advocating that "the christian/juedo-muslim God" is a joke. Don't even try to say I don't have to ask it here. IF you have no real answer for it, don't post. If you think it's an inappropriate question, don't respond. Wikipedia eh, do you know I have the power to edit what's in there right now and until a moderator or someone similar comes along to correct it, it can still be up there? Not the first place I would look for science foundation of a theory.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10478207/

Enjoy taking your foot out of your mouth.

[cobrahead1030]

well...ive pretty much put stock into believing there isnt a god LOL i see people's points when they say "look at this...how it lines up like this...it HAD to be put together by an intelligent being!" and then i remember back when my brother threw a picture and it landed on a shelf and wedged itself magically the right way up and everything. same principal...stuff can just "happen". the truth is stranger than fiction sometimes, and there is much evidence to that. and i respect anyone who respects my views...christians, non-christians, etc. sometimes we lose the big picture with all our beliefs in the way. we are ALL humans, we are all of the same species, and we ALL reside on the same planet. the bigger mystery than all this stuff were talking about is to me...why cant we just put our differences aside and THRIVE! were human, were intelligent...lets start USING our intelligence for something greater than trying to destroy each other!!!!

i see what you're saying

here's another analogy

sometimes, i can do a crazy sweep picking lick that's way beyond my ability...and somehow pull it off well; i don't know how, i don't really have the skill to do it, i haven't practiced it nearly enough to nail it like that, but somehow i accidentally do it

but i don't see myself making a career of going out every night, and by chance whipping out crazy lead chops that are far beyond my ability...and accidentally nailing every note

furthermore, i don't see nearly every guitarist in the world doing the same thing...sounding good doesn't happen by chance, and sounding good on guitar is a principal FAR more simplistic than the evolution of mankind

[17 Tubes]

Why not consider the possibility that this just happened? For no reason? Not guided by any "supreme being". Like putting yellow on blue makes green. Why? You can say the pigments combine and absorb/reflect a different color. Why? hellivIknow. It just does. Where did the carbons and hydrogen come from??? where is the question. I think that it could've happened in the way that you describe.... i think that if "God" is, then he could've administered it in that way. If God is God then he just is... why is the question to that for me; not where or how. either carbon just is or God just is... it's a stance of faith either way (no actual proof). A man was born who claimed to be the son of God. His existance, life and works are well documented... as is his death and eye witness accounts of his resurrection. His followers willingly died horriffic deaths when they could have just scattered and stopped believing. either total loonies... or something they saw and experienced dramatically changed their lives.

Okay...you read the part where I said....for the moment...forget where all this "stuff" came from", right?


So...you want to know where hydrogen and carbon came from? Liek soc said...THAT is the question...not whether or not it happened (primordial soup>>>>>life).


Might as well ask "where did God come from".

We answer THAT question...like a good religious follower SHOULD, and we MAY find our carbon and hydrogen.


I'm offended at your post, becuase there ARE docements that say, yes, "Jesus" lived...but not the Son OF God. So you are assuming much.

[RonniePentatonic]

These threads have done more to separate and divide this forum than Fab, PRMike, Madison Amps, Mega7684, Musicians Friend mods and Krank put together.

 

Worthless vehicle for nothing but more bickering, fighting and potential friends drawing lines on the sidewalk. I say the next person who posts a religeous thread be publically flogged.

 

[EpiPaul03]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10478207/ Enjoy taking your foot out of your mouth.

"Wikipedia, which boasts 3.7 million articles"

I'm sure every one of those articles is monitored every single day to ensure they are accurate.

[soc_monki]

soc....all great stuff. We're all searching for a reason...or how or WHY! And that is fine...but we are spending too much time defending our right to be right. Talk about downward sprial! That spiral has to be stopped somehow. You can look at this thread and see a mirror of humankind. Look at people and how they act. I think remeberduanne is a pretty smart cookie...but look at some of his responses to other people. And I don't mean to just pick on him. But we call each other names, have little tolerance, pretty much insist we are righter and smarter than the next guy, and if we had sticks and clubs we'd be beating each other on the noggin...let alone guns and bombs. No...not sure if we can do what you suggest. I'd like to see it though. We have SO much potential...and much of it being wasted.

yea...i used to be like that. get into heated arguments, even online...and then i decided i dont need to waste my time doing that. i did some soul-searching, some research, and came up with what works for me. i dont try to explain everything, or understand everything, but i always keep an open mind and listen to everything, respect others opinions. and ive even impressed a lot of christian people i know because im so gung-ho about morals and doing the right thing, and im not christian (which proves you dont have to be part of a religion to be moral or do the right thing...).

some people just cant look past their own idea of the world though. people should just step back and take in the view...i mean...in teh past 100 years we went from nothing to cars, and airplanes, space, computers that took up huge buildings to now computers that are infinitely more powerful than those old TUBE (LOL) driven machines (there i related all this to the amp forum!).

if people would just stop and look at all this that we have created and invented and actually took time to ADMIRE it, and see how great humankind can be, we might have a chance. but as its going, people cant do that. its sad, very sad.

[grayeyes777]

we really dont know where the carbon and hydrogen came from...thats the big mystery LOL and Jesus didnt proclaim himself the son of god...John the Baptist proclaimed Jesus the son of god

[rememberduane]

"Wikipedia, which boasts 3.7 million articles" I'm sure every one of those articles is monitored every single day to ensure they are accurate.

 

 

Did you read the article? Apparently not.

 

Not to mention, I said it could have been a starting point, not an end-all source. Did you bother reading the Wikipedia page or no?

[EdgeOfDarkness]

"Wikipedia, which boasts 3.7 million articles" I'm sure every one of those articles is monitored every single day to ensure they are accurate.

I am sure when the bible was revisted it was monitored as well.

[Thri11_H0use]

Honestly, i think at this point in our evolution, we are not capable of answering these questions. How the universe began, how life began, why are we the way we are now, etc. We simply do not have the intelligence to figure it out. Nothing be ashamed of. Its just not our time yet.

[EpiPaul03]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10478207/ Enjoy taking your foot out of your mouth.

I still haven't heard a credible answer from you concerning the original question. I have seen you try to say how terrible intelligent design is and how it's flawed, but I haven't seen you answer the question. You keep taking steps around the building, it's about time to enter, don't you think?

[soc_monki]

i see what you're saying here's another analogy sometimes, i can do a crazy sweep picking lick that's way beyond my ability...and somehow pull it off well; i don't know how, i don't really have the skill to do it, i haven't practiced it nearly enough to nail it like that, but somehow i accidentally do it but i don't see myself making a career of going out every night, and by chance whipping out crazy lead chops that are far beyond my ability...and accidentally nailing every note furthermore, i don't see nearly every guitarist in the world doing the same thing...sounding good doesn't happen by chance, and sounding good on guitar is a principal FAR more simplistic than the evolution of mankind

ahhhhh TOUCHE my friend! LOL good thoughts! i understand that...sometimes i whip out stuff thats way beyond my abilities then i have to work up to that to be able to play it consistently, which takes a lot of work.

but we could also look and see...did it happen by chance that the stringed instrument was created? or did someone sit down and think "if i tap this wood, it makes a noise...if i hollow it out, it resonantes...now if i add strings...EUREKA!"?

ahhhh...damn...ok, i gotta take a break, my brain is hurting cuz im starting to go in 50 different directions thinking about this stuff LOL and i have band practice tonight, if we get together that is im going to be thinking about this all during practice! LOL

[EpiPaul03]

I am sure when the bible was revisted it was monitored as well.

Where in this thread have I advocated the Bible as a credible source for our existence? How do you know I'm a Christian, am I? Am I jewish? I hope you realize what a stupid ass question that was, kidding or not. Saying moronic {censored}ing stupid-ass statements like tosses any sort of credibility I will give to you.

[EdgeOfDarkness]

Touchy much ?
hahahaha
Ok give credit to someone you have never seen or existed.

[soc_monki]

[rememberduane]

I still haven't heard a credible answer from you concerning the original question. I have seen you try to say how terrible intelligent design is and how it's flawed, but I haven't seen you answer the question. You keep taking steps around the building, it's about time to enter, don't you think?

 

 

Okay, I'll do the work for you and start posting information using the Wikipedia article as a starting point:

 

http://www.gla.ac.uk/projects/originoflife/html/2001/laymans_abstract.htm

[EpiPaul03]

Touchy much ? hahahaha Ok give credit to someone you have never seen or existed.

 

 

Ok, in the meantime you can go finger your butthole:wave:

[grayeyes777]

Okay...you read the part where I said....for the moment...forget where all this "stuff" came from", right? So...you want to know where hydrogen and carbon came from? Liek soc said...THAT is the question...not whether or not it happened (primordial soup>>>>>life). Might as well ask "where did God come from". We answer THAT question...like a good religious follower SHOULD, and we MAY find our carbon and hydrogen. I'm offended at your post, becuase there ARE docements that say, yes, "Jesus" lived...but not the Son OF God. So you are assuming much.

Sorry for offending... and i did say that while forgetting where this stuff came from, that i thought your theory possible. There are eye-witness accounts of Jesus being seen living after his death. does that make him God... or does that make the witnesses tell the truth... maybe not. but his followers (disciples) really stuck to their beliefs to the point of dying horrific deaths when they had no reason to (if the didn't see something that changed their lives). What this all comes down to is this.... did carbon etc.. "just exist" before creation of all that we know now... or did God exist before creation? No one can answer that because we can't study "nothing". Both are stances of faith and both are assumptions.

[EpiPaul03]

Okay, I'll do the work for you and start posting information using the Wikipedia article as a starting point: http://www.gla.ac.uk/projects/originoflife/html/2001/laymans_abstract.htm

 

 

"This is an explanation of how life might have originated"

 

Next.

[EdgeOfDarkness]

Ok, in the meantime you can go finger your butthole:wave:

[yabba]

"This is an explanation of how life might have originated" Next.

 

what more are you looking for?

[rememberduane]

"This is an explanation of how life might have originated" Next.

 

Why?

 

The language of science when referring to things we cannot empirically prove must include doubt -- and this is ANYTHING we can't experience empirically. This is the idea of "inductive" argument. There is the possibility that it is false. Most science is based on inductive theories. Induction has its flaws, but it's better than saying "well, {censored}, I dunno" and forming myths. They use what facts we have and form scientific theories (which are far from the common usage of the word) to try to explain things, while leaving room for improvement (thus not being dogmatic).

 

I recommend you read up on the philosophy of science.

[grayeyes777]

Might as well ask "where did God come from".

We answer THAT question...like a good religious follower SHOULD, and we MAY find our carbon and hydrogen.



The bible does imply that God does have a physical appearance... but I also believe that what seperates humans from other living beings is the spirit (which I believe has no physical properties). A spirit has to be made out of something though... right???