indespise

Originally posted by Loghead Really? The initial post is totally nuts. So, we're going to Hell in a hand basket because Congress doesn't want to make flag burning a priority? That, gays wanting to get married, and the fact that less people belive in his God.

Originally posted by Loghead From whom? Guitar Schmoe, the one who's adamantly defending the initial post.

Rebuttal, please?

Originally posted by rx jr. http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1292599 No thanks, the 2 debate threads I'm working here are plenty.

Originally posted by guitar shmoe Why didn't our founding Fathers choose any of the MANY available eastern religions to build our nation? Are you aware of the 'barbaric' state of China and the orient during those years? Why Christianity? First off, at the time, the general US public would be incredibly unlikely to know jack {censored} about Eastern philosphy. It makes more sense to use what people know. China and Japan were far from "barbaric" at the time of our nation's dawn. Yes, they both had their ages of war, but so has every civilization, and over there it wasn't an ordeal of religious fanaticism. If you want to live an 'anti-Christian' life...be my guest! But, for the sake of public safety, lets have some rules and laws restricting people from harming or injuring others. AND...in that debate of HOW to legislate those laws, I believe it is fair and right to include Christians as well as non Christians. We have rules and laws protecting people's rights, it's facists like Ann Coulter (who you seem to agree with) that are a threat to the individual's rights. Christians have the right to vote and be involved in the legislative process, nobody is denying that, but the line is drawn when the laws they want infringe on other's rights. Not only would that stomp on the individual, it would castrate seperation of church and state, something neocons love the idea of. There is a game being played by the liberal God-haters: 'I can teach my wacky left-wing/political correct/socialistic/humanistic/homosexual/relativistic morals and ethics etc....to young impressionable kids. BUT!!! You CANNOT teach anything dealing with your Christianity and Christian worldview (under the guise of a misinterpreted First Amendment "separation church and State" hoax).... A convenient little 'secular scam' to keep the poor Christian man down! I will agree NOT to teach Christianity to young kids that don't want to learn it "IF" Liberals will agree NOT to teach their leftist "religion' to kids in schools and stop trying to legislate Christian opposition to their view as a 'hate crime'...DEAL???? This is larely sensationalist fantasy, sounds like something straight out of Bill O'Reily's mouth. Nobody is forcing "left wing propaganda" down kid's throats, you fundies are simply loosing your ability to do it yourself. Christianity, nor any religion has any place being taught as doctrine in schools. Looked at in a historical and (possibly) political conetext, yes, but your people are whining because "intelligent design" isn't, and won't being taught in science classes, because it isn't science. For someone who is supposed to follow Christ's example, you sure are a hateful bastard. Look how many times you've used terms like "Wacky left liberal God Haters", you might as well cry "INFIDELS!". My advice: Stop watching Fox News, try to live like Christ, quit whining about people who don't see the world in the same light as you, and do unto others as you would have them do unto you (which really covers it all unless you're into self mutilation). "Call yourself the victim, but it's you who walks a vicious path.".

Originally posted by potaetoes did somebody say the founding fathers agreed upon christianity definitively as a moral base? actual history shows that they specifically rejected it. Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination. -Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. -Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782 Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear. -Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787 History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes. -Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813. Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814 In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814 And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors. -Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823 I usually avoid things like this, but JEFFERSOWNED!!!!

Originally posted by guitar shmoe why don't you stop beating up on non-queer' people...bronxo-Bully. (hypocrite)

Originally posted by Loghead That's what you're trying to do. Why do you need something pinned to the wall? +1000 Fluidity is a good thing.

Originally posted by guitar shmoe your name and avatar rule!!! but.....I disagree with your post Unfortunately, that's not the image you've projected with most of your posts in this thread.

Originally posted by guitar shmoe This isn't accurate. Actually it is backward. The only thing our secular society seems to NOT tolerate is Christianity. Did you go to school?.... A history lesson your left-wing liberal God-hating teacher probably didn't teach you.... Our founding Fathers (though most weren't outright Christians or rather Deists) understood the importance of a foundational and stable moral code. Funny how they ALL agreed on the Christian Bible to follow....I have DOZENS and DOZENS of quotes from Jeffereson, Franklin, Henry, Hancock etc...stating that our country will FAIL if it strays from sound faith in the Christian God....they respected the Bible so much they FRAMED our Constitution and Bill of Rights from it's language. There is a reason and definition for 'LIBERTY' and it's basis is espoused NO OTHER PLACE but in the Bible, our ORIGINS as a nation are strickly Biblical...what alot of you young 'know-it-alls' are actually saying is: "Thanks for starting us up and getting us this far God, but, we can take it from here.." I would be MORE than happy to move to a state where Christianity ruled and allow for non-Christians to legislate their own 'morality'...I just don't want to be subject to liberal shifting situational (political correct) ethics and moral relativism...you want to see a real arguement? try discussing morality with a group of people that are moral relativists...no foundation...no standard...like trying to pin jello to the wall... Regarding your initial statement, a line from tan Immolation song (Storm of Terror) comes to mind: "Call yourself the victim, but it's you whio walks a vicious path" That sums up the topic of Christians claiming that there is a war (of Satan ) against their faith. Claiming to be persecuted makes moder Christians feel good about themselves. A world with a majority population of Christians isn't a world intolerant of them, but (some) Christains often whine that it is so because they can see their religion losing the chokehold on today's society (particularly in the US). Enter the facist neo-cons like Ann Coulter. There are much better sources for a code of liberty than the Bible. Study Taoism, Zen, Hindu and Buddhism if you want good examples. That said, there are some good foundations in the Bible. If the founding fathers wanted morals to be mandated entirely by Christianity, freedom of religion, nor seperation of church and state wouldn't have been in our framework. Your statement about "young know it alls"is spoken from the perspective that everyone belives your God got use here in the first place. Not everyone will choose the same fantasy you did, whether or not you want to look at it as fantasy. Accept it, and live your life, love thy neighbor as thyself, worship your God as you choose.

Originally posted by DirtyBird I dont mind that Christians try to live by their Christian moral code... What upsets me is how vehemently Christian want their moral code to be THE moral code. This push to legislate Christian morality into law. This is just not fair to the rest of us. And Im sorry guys but I think this tauted decline of society is really overblown. This paranoid chicken little crap irritates me. Things are different, some things are worse, some things are better. Things need to be fixed? Do you think making the US into a fascist theocracy will help anything? And at what cost? Well put.

Originally posted by Ultrahighgain I hear you man. I'm not going to church right now either. I try to remember that all things of this world will fail you (and me) and that includes friends, family members, and the church...but God is still good. I know, I know...sounds like a bunch of petty dogma BS here in the trenches...press on...ever we press on. Man, I was in the same boat as you for a few years, if you want o understand why these things (problems with the Church) are the way they are, I suggest reading The Jesus Mysteries. It gave me one of those moments, all the things that didn't make sense did after reading it. I'm not saying that your experince will be the same, but you might find it very beneficial.

Originally posted by guitar shmoe I guess I'm just not understanding your position or worldview on social issues?...you seem to 'borrow' terms from the Christian worldview though... that's alright, Chirstianity "borrowed" most all the techings of the New Testament, and even it's Jesus figure, from a wide number of mystery religions and philosophers that predated it.

Originally posted by guitar shmoe For people that 'claim' to be Christian the divorce rate is: 54%..... For those that believe that the Bible is God's inerrant Word and absolutely true, the divorce rate is: maybe there's something to that Bible And how do you define those who belive the bible is infallible truth? A particular denomination, maybe? The Amish, perhaps?

Originally posted by guitar shmoe Well, if you don't believe in God, and Christianity has failed....who do YOU trust? What is your 'standard' for life choices? and, if we live in 'modern' times and society has 'evolved', then, how come things aren't better? How would YOU 'fix' society? (answer in order please) You don't have to have a God to trust. This is completely irrelevant. You don't have to have a standard in accordance with an old book. We have the ability to learn from our own experience. Things are as they are because people refuse to learn, they limit their own understanding with dogmatic beliefs. When people choose to stay in the dark, greedy people who are a bit more intelligent take the reigns, and do whatever they want to the general public. There is no simple solution to "fix" society. People need to seek new understanding and insight, new knowledge, the ability to see things in different light(s), to realize that we are all manifestations of the same reality at the core. When people belive they have all the answers in their religion (the Bible and Christianity, in this case), they stop seeking new knowledge. Mass-scale dogma (of various forms, not just Christianity) needs to be crushed before society can advance freely. "My way is the only way" needs to be smashed, individuals will follow their own path to enlightenment.