indespise

Originally posted by Loghead Really? The initial post is totally nuts. So, we're going to Hell in a hand basket because Congress doesn't want to make flag burning a priority? That, gays wanting to get married, and the fact that less people belive in his God.

Originally posted by Loghead From whom? Guitar Schmoe, the one who's adamantly defending the initial post.

Rebuttal, please?

Originally posted by rx jr. http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1292599 No thanks, the 2 debate threads I'm working here are plenty.

Originally posted by guitar shmoe Why didn't our founding Fathers choose any of the MANY available eastern religions to build our nation? Are you aware of the 'barbaric' state of China and the orient during those years? Why Christianity? First off, at the time, the general US public would be incredibly unlikely to know jack {censored} about Eastern philosphy. It makes more sense to use what people know. China and Japan were far from "barbaric" at the time of our nation's dawn. Yes, they both had their ages of war, but so has every civilization, and over there it wasn't an ordeal of religious fanaticism. If you want to live an 'anti-Christian' life...be my guest! But, for the sake of public safety, lets have some rules and laws restricting people from harming or injuring others. AND...in that debate of HOW to legislate those laws, I believe it is fair and right to include Christians as well as non Christians. We have rules and laws protecting people's rights, it's facists like Ann Coulter (who you seem to agree with) that are a threat to the individual's rights. Christians have the right to vote and be involved in the legislative process, nobody is denying that, but the line is drawn when the laws they want infringe on other's rights. Not only would that stomp on the individual, it would castrate seperation of church and state, something neocons love the idea of. There is a game being played by the liberal God-haters: 'I can teach my wacky left-wing/political correct/socialistic/humanistic/homosexual/relativistic morals and ethics etc....to young impressionable kids. BUT!!! You CANNOT teach anything dealing with your Christianity and Christian worldview (under the guise of a misinterpreted First Amendment "separation church and State" hoax).... A convenient little 'secular scam' to keep the poor Christian man down! I will agree NOT to teach Christianity to young kids that don't want to learn it "IF" Liberals will agree NOT to teach their leftist "religion' to kids in schools and stop trying to legislate Christian opposition to their view as a 'hate crime'...DEAL???? This is larely sensationalist fantasy, sounds like something straight out of Bill O'Reily's mouth. Nobody is forcing "left wing propaganda" down kid's throats, you fundies are simply loosing your ability to do it yourself. Christianity, nor any religion has any place being taught as doctrine in schools. Looked at in a historical and (possibly) political conetext, yes, but your people are whining because "intelligent design" isn't, and won't being taught in science classes, because it isn't science. For someone who is supposed to follow Christ's example, you sure are a hateful bastard. Look how many times you've used terms like "Wacky left liberal God Haters", you might as well cry "INFIDELS!". My advice: Stop watching Fox News, try to live like Christ, quit whining about people who don't see the world in the same light as you, and do unto others as you would have them do unto you (which really covers it all unless you're into self mutilation). "Call yourself the victim, but it's you who walks a vicious path.".

Originally posted by potaetoes did somebody say the founding fathers agreed upon christianity definitively as a moral base? actual history shows that they specifically rejected it. Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination. -Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. -Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782 Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear. -Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787 History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes. -Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813. Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814 In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814 And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors. -Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823 I usually avoid things like this, but JEFFERSOWNED!!!!

Originally posted by guitar shmoe why don't you stop beating up on non-queer' people...bronxo-Bully. (hypocrite)

Originally posted by Loghead That's what you're trying to do. Why do you need something pinned to the wall? +1000 Fluidity is a good thing.

Originally posted by guitar shmoe your name and avatar rule!!! but.....I disagree with your post Unfortunately, that's not the image you've projected with most of your posts in this thread.

Originally posted by guitar shmoe This isn't accurate. Actually it is backward. The only thing our secular society seems to NOT tolerate is Christianity. Did you go to school?.... A history lesson your left-wing liberal God-hating teacher probably didn't teach you.... Our founding Fathers (though most weren't outright Christians or rather Deists) understood the importance of a foundational and stable moral code. Funny how they ALL agreed on the Christian Bible to follow....I have DOZENS and DOZENS of quotes from Jeffereson, Franklin, Henry, Hancock etc...stating that our country will FAIL if it strays from sound faith in the Christian God....they respected the Bible so much they FRAMED our Constitution and Bill of Rights from it's language. There is a reason and definition for 'LIBERTY' and it's basis is espoused NO OTHER PLACE but in the Bible, our ORIGINS as a nation are strickly Biblical...what alot of you young 'know-it-alls' are actually saying is: "Thanks for starting us up and getting us this far God, but, we can take it from here.." I would be MORE than happy to move to a state where Christianity ruled and allow for non-Christians to legislate their own 'morality'...I just don't want to be subject to liberal shifting situational (political correct) ethics and moral relativism...you want to see a real arguement? try discussing morality with a group of people that are moral relativists...no foundation...no standard...like trying to pin jello to the wall... Regarding your initial statement, a line from tan Immolation song (Storm of Terror) comes to mind: "Call yourself the victim, but it's you whio walks a vicious path" That sums up the topic of Christians claiming that there is a war (of Satan ) against their faith. Claiming to be persecuted makes moder Christians feel good about themselves. A world with a majority population of Christians isn't a world intolerant of them, but (some) Christains often whine that it is so because they can see their religion losing the chokehold on today's society (particularly in the US). Enter the facist neo-cons like Ann Coulter. There are much better sources for a code of liberty than the Bible. Study Taoism, Zen, Hindu and Buddhism if you want good examples. That said, there are some good foundations in the Bible. If the founding fathers wanted morals to be mandated entirely by Christianity, freedom of religion, nor seperation of church and state wouldn't have been in our framework. Your statement about "young know it alls"is spoken from the perspective that everyone belives your God got use here in the first place. Not everyone will choose the same fantasy you did, whether or not you want to look at it as fantasy. Accept it, and live your life, love thy neighbor as thyself, worship your God as you choose.

Originally posted by DirtyBird I dont mind that Christians try to live by their Christian moral code... What upsets me is how vehemently Christian want their moral code to be THE moral code. This push to legislate Christian morality into law. This is just not fair to the rest of us. And Im sorry guys but I think this tauted decline of society is really overblown. This paranoid chicken little crap irritates me. Things are different, some things are worse, some things are better. Things need to be fixed? Do you think making the US into a fascist theocracy will help anything? And at what cost? Well put.

Originally posted by Ultrahighgain I hear you man. I'm not going to church right now either. I try to remember that all things of this world will fail you (and me) and that includes friends, family members, and the church...but God is still good. I know, I know...sounds like a bunch of petty dogma BS here in the trenches...press on...ever we press on. Man, I was in the same boat as you for a few years, if you want o understand why these things (problems with the Church) are the way they are, I suggest reading The Jesus Mysteries. It gave me one of those moments, all the things that didn't make sense did after reading it. I'm not saying that your experince will be the same, but you might find it very beneficial.

Originally posted by guitar shmoe I guess I'm just not understanding your position or worldview on social issues?...you seem to 'borrow' terms from the Christian worldview though... that's alright, Chirstianity "borrowed" most all the techings of the New Testament, and even it's Jesus figure, from a wide number of mystery religions and philosophers that predated it.

Originally posted by guitar shmoe For people that 'claim' to be Christian the divorce rate is: 54%..... For those that believe that the Bible is God's inerrant Word and absolutely true, the divorce rate is: maybe there's something to that Bible And how do you define those who belive the bible is infallible truth? A particular denomination, maybe? The Amish, perhaps?

Originally posted by guitar shmoe Well, if you don't believe in God, and Christianity has failed....who do YOU trust? What is your 'standard' for life choices? and, if we live in 'modern' times and society has 'evolved', then, how come things aren't better? How would YOU 'fix' society? (answer in order please) You don't have to have a God to trust. This is completely irrelevant. You don't have to have a standard in accordance with an old book. We have the ability to learn from our own experience. Things are as they are because people refuse to learn, they limit their own understanding with dogmatic beliefs. When people choose to stay in the dark, greedy people who are a bit more intelligent take the reigns, and do whatever they want to the general public. There is no simple solution to "fix" society. People need to seek new understanding and insight, new knowledge, the ability to see things in different light(s), to realize that we are all manifestations of the same reality at the core. When people belive they have all the answers in their religion (the Bible and Christianity, in this case), they stop seeking new knowledge. Mass-scale dogma (of various forms, not just Christianity) needs to be crushed before society can advance freely. "My way is the only way" needs to be smashed, individuals will follow their own path to enlightenment.

Originally posted by charliedango No, it shouldn't be dismissed based on it's origin, but if it's counterproductive to the advancement of our modern society and an attempt to keep us from expanding our cultural horizons as a nation, then it should be dismissed. A person who interprets the Bible as irrefutable law and will not budge on that concept should be ignored because their steadfast dedication to their faith makes it impossible for them to change. A person who is more faith-concious, but flexible on the terms of Biblical law will most likely present a more level-headed debate and is more willing to concede to ideas that make sense as opposed to hardliners who feel it should be God's way or the highway. According to the Bible, God gave us free will to do with the world and our lives as we felt. If God was truly that adamant about keeping us in-line, he certainly wouldn't have given us free will. Right. If by we you're referring to agnostics/athiests and people of faith, then I suppose so. No peace can ever be found in limiting civil liberties and human rights though. People unwilling to expand their minds to accept new ways, cultures and ideas are the people who prevent peace from occuring. It doesn't matter if you believe in God or not, if you cannot accept change, then you will fight for your right to stay stubborn and ignorant. Well said. Nobody here is writing something off something just because it's in the Bible, the issue here is people declaring standards according to their Bible that they see as infallible truth.

History is not irrelevant, those who don't learn from history's mistakes are doomed to repeat it. We aren't to far off from a new holy war in today's world, precisely because people (namely Muslims, Christians, and orthodox Jews in this case) have failed to learn from the past. The Old Testament being irrelavent (due to the New Covenant) in cases where it is convenient is funny to me, because in learning what I have about the origins of Christianity, I understand why that's there on a whole new level. If you are curious of what I'm talking about, I highly reccomend reading The Jesus Mysteries. Besides that, the old/new covenant thing doesn't really fit into this discussion, I'm not calling someone a heretic for eating pork or working on the Sabbath.

Originally posted by Ultrahighgain All I can say is that the folks that you've cited...all those evil deeds that were done such as the witch trials... Those folks weren't exactly following the example set by Jesus were they? No, they weren't, but one could argue that they were following the example of God in the Old Testament. The Muslims waging jihad on infidels aren't doing a good job of living the life that their religion truly teaches either. It has been twisted around by those in power, just as Christianity was to justify the witch burnings, the crusades, the inquisition, etc.

Originally posted by boogienights No your' agenda is to demonize all christians by smearing them individually and as a whole group every chance you get, mostly by being ignorant and trying to draw parallels between Christianity and things you know people will see as bad, like Islamic fundamentalist states.Oh and keep mixing truths and half truths with a little bit of twisting/lieing. Keep telling only the parts of storys/history that you want people to hear. Good job! Tell the same lie over and over and eventually people WILL start to believe it. I didn't mean to imply anything I was just seeing the depth of, or what the root of your' beliefs are. Like I was saying I'm really enjoying your' posts. Call it a twist or lie all you want, the mindset is the same. We have seperation of church and state for a reason, and Christian fundamentalists are doing all they can to weaken it. Am I suggesting that all christians are extremists? No, and neither are all Mulsims extremists. It's the "fundies" like the thread starter who want to impose their religion's morals on the nation (or the world, for that matter) that I have a problem with. Also, please point out these half truths and lies you're accusing me of. Oh, and those parts of history I'm bringing up, why don't we just erase those from the books instead of learning form them? I brought them up because they are relevant to the discussion.

Originally posted by Ultrahighgain Don't confuse Catholicism with Christianity. I expect you'll say that they're the same, but they are not. I know quite well what the differences are, considering I was raised a "full gospel" christian, went to christian school, and I was a very well studied, sincere christian who could've been a pastor by now if I had wanted to. I know the mindset I'm dealing with here from firsthand experience, I have the ability to look at it from the view of a conservative christian. Modern "protestant" christianity and catholocism are different, but protestant christianity has it's roots in catholocism whether or not they want to accept it. It's still based on a book that the Catholics had total control of for a LONG time, the same book Catholocism used to rule in a way not at all different from the way modern Islamic leaders use their book to rule. It's still centered around literalist beliefs cooked up by what became the Catholic church, the iconoclasts who did all they could to erase original christianity along with anything else they didn't like. If you need another example that fits our protestant christianity better, look at the US witch burnings. The fact that that could happen at all (legally, I might add) should speak volumes to you about what kind of society this was, what kind of things would be done to someone who spoke out (or lived in a way that was) against Christian beliefs? Go over to the middle east and say something bad about Allah or Muhammed, and I'm betting the reaction you'd get would be similar.

Originally posted by boogienights indespise I guess Christians are terrorrists to you... seems you're so afraid of them......hahaha,..dude, I'll tell my grandma and her friends to stop harrassing you! Watch out for those deadly church raffles and bingo.....you clearly have a specific agenda going on, what are you a homosexual Satanists or something? Man I love you you're funny as hell, keep on posting ... No, my point is that Christian fundamentalists aren't very different from Islamic fundamentalists in their mindset. At this time, Islamic fundamentalists are turning to violence more, but the ideology is the same. If people like the thread starter and guitar schmoe had total control, the USA wouldn't be far from an Islamic state. These are some of the reasons we have seperation of church and state, yet in today's fear dominated Fox News watching society, we have neo-conservative christians doing all they can to impose their beliefs on the nation (in cases such as this, by means of law), thus violating seperation of church and state. And since you asked, I'm not a homosexual or a satanist, although the way you mention it implies that there is something wrong with either one. My "agenda" here is freedom, freedom for all, not just freedom in context of what conservative christains want.

Originally posted by guitar shmoe In the beginning God created...... Clearly, this kills any opposing argument.

Originally posted by charliedango The only time you hear of wartime murder on our front is when the responsible parties are found out. Insurgents don't really have a governing force to punish them as criminals when executions are carried out because the executions themselves are acts of defiance. They live in an anarchist state where no action they take is punishable by anything, so really that's the only difference. The fact is they are still murdering innocents as are we. Murderers are murderers, regardless of their religious or political affiliation. I've read of mothers microwaving their babies because they wouldn't stop crying here in the states, does that make us any more or less barbaric. Like I said, a society as a whole shouldn't be judged by it's weakest links. Everyone. I don't think there is one country (outside of possibly Canada) that hasn't been guilty of that at some point throughout history. Apples and oranges. You can't compare the leader of the western world to a third-world dictatorship because Their rules and our rules were totally different. We've burned innocent people at the stake because we believed them to be witches. We've imprisoned people of Asian background living in the US for fear of domestic terrorism. We've ruined the careers of high profile people over fear of them being traitors to our country. We've blown up our own buildings and assassinated our own leaders many times over. The list goes on and on. Who are we to say we're better than anyone else? We're not in the aspect of morality. What makes the US better than many other nations is our propensity to change with the times and redefine our entire culture to suit new changes to our paradigm. Many other nations prefer to remain steadfast to the old ways, but cannot hold out forever. We evolve as a society and part of that evolution is accepting things such as gay marriage. It's going to happen eventually and all our current government is doing is trying to win votes by catering to the fundamentalists in such a way that secures their vote in future elections. Change is always with us. You either change, or you spend the rest of your life whining about the "good ol' days". DESTROYED

Originally posted by guitar shmoe truly, unbelievable....you really don't pay attention to current events... I'm gonna go talk amps...this thread, like an ocean wave, has hit the shore... Ann Coulter is RIGHT! you can't have a decent discussion with liberals...truly, a waste of time. Wow, I am shocked an amazed that you like that facist, hypocritical {censored}. This is the same piece of trash that said "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders, and convert them to Christianity." right after the 9/11 attack. If you can't see that she's no different than the Muslims calling Jihad on the "infidels", you might as well gouge your eyes out, because you sure as hell aren't using them.

Originally posted by guitar shmoe I would bet anything that this forum is at least 95% left-wing morons...ANYTHING! Yes, that's it. Anyone who doesn't share your default set of conservative christian morals must be a moron. Bigot.