Members knockwood Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 Tonal impact: Ditka > Bridge Pins > Fingerboard Material > Heelcap Material > Headplate Veneer > Guitar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RogueGnome Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 Tonal impact:Ditka > Bridge Pins > Fingerboard Material > Heelcap Material > Headplate Veneer > Guitar hey dude, who ever the hell you are [or "think" you are], are you telling me that I can't tell the difference in heelcaps?You are totally full of YOU-KNOW-WHAT.I swapped out all my heelcaps for the fossilized kneecaps extracted from the 12 apostles. My guitars sound heavenly now.In fact, they sound so good, I'm thinking of taking up guitar lessons just to prove it to you dimwitted, dingbatted, dolts. Are you listening? :poke: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rhancox Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 Galabar nailed it! I was going to stay out of this fish fry, but this man deserves a cigar. Bridge pins of different weights, will alter the mass of the bridge, changing the impedance of the bridge, and resulting in a change of the top's resonance. Thus resulting in tonal change. Example: Stock Martin Ebony Bridge: weight = 36.0 grams 6 Stock Plastic Bridge Pins @ 3.1 grams each = 18.6 grams Total stock bridge/pin weight = 54.6 grams Substituting 6 Ebony bridge pins @ 4.54 grams each = 27.24 grams Our Stock Martin Ebony Bridge: weight = 36.0 grams New total bridge/pin weight = 63.24 grams Difference in bridge/pin weight from stock: = + 8.84 grams Not a huge difference, but a perceptable difference just the same. By the way, every part we put in a guitar get's measured and weighed like this. So there you have it!! With information like this, staying out of it was the worse thing you could do.Guitarcapo made this argument too, including suggesting attaching coins or fishing weights to the bridge for expedience and convenience in testing. At the same time, though, he also implored that the bridge pins had no affect.Assuming this information is accurate (and I'm in no position to dispute it ), there is no disputing a difference is made. Whether it's perceptible or not will always be in dispute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Guitar_stringer Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 Rob, The last time i got involved in this bridge pin deal, both Gary Palmer and I took a load of crap. That's why I remained silent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rhancox Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 Rob, The last time i got involved in this bridge pin deal, both Gary Palmer and I took a load of crap. That's why I remained silent. I can understand that. Thanks for the info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sangemon Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 OK, is it over now? I'm hoping I'll have the last word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brokepick Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 Galabar nailed it! I was going to stay out of this fish fry, but this man deserves a cigar. Bridge pins of different weights, will alter the mass of the bridge, changing the impedance of the bridge, and resulting in a change of the top's resonance. Thus resulting in tonal change. Example: Stock Martin Ebony Bridge: weight = 36.0 grams 6 Stock Plastic Bridge Pins @ 3.1 grams each = 18.6 grams Total stock bridge/pin weight = 54.6 grams Substituting 6 Ebony bridge pins @ 4.54 grams each = 27.24 grams Our Stock Martin Ebony Bridge: weight = 36.0 grams New total bridge/pin weight = 63.24 grams Difference in bridge/pin weight from stock: = + 8.84 grams Not a huge difference, but a perceptable difference just the same. By the way, every part we put in a guitar get's measured and weighed like this. So there you have it!! That's my take on it too. Simple physics. Maybe not just overall mass, but the center of mass too. Consider if you cut the tops off of the bridge pins and glued half inch steel balls to the tops of the pins. Now you've changed the center of mass of the pins. Might have an effect on tone. It would definitely look wild. We could be on to something here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RogueGnome Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 Well let me be the first to call total BULL{censored}!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rhancox Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 And what of Jimmy Chaos' painted pins? Imagine the chaos of different shades actually having varying masses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members totamus Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 I suspect that, in addition to weight, the density of the material may have some bearing. In spite of Gc's ramblings about how vibrations stop at the saddle, this is not so. My source on this is an engineering background and a knowledge of wave behavior. Any slide or dobro player knows that they need to use their hand to mute the string in back of the slide to get the purest tone. This is empirical proof that the string section in back of the termination will vibrate. The ball of the string is held in pace by the bridgepin, and will sit wedged into position with the bridge plate on one side and the bridgepin on the other. So my belief is that the ball is transmitting its vibrations to the guitar through both the bridgepin and the bridge plate. Like the saddle then, the sound will be affected by the material characteristics of the bridgepin since it is a transfer medium. But - this is not proven, it is just my belief. But if you walk through the termination system, as I just did, it is a logical conclusion based upon solid physics. I expect that the weight of the bridgepins is the more significant, but not the only, contributor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Guitar_stringer Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 That's my take on it too. Simple physics. Maybe not just overall mass, but the center of mass too. Consider if you cut the tops off of the bridge pins and glued half inch steel balls to the tops of the pins. Now you've changed the center of mass of the pins. Might have an effect on tone. It would definitely look wild. We could be on to something here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members totamus Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 So can Gary Palmer come back now? I miss him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Guitar_stringer Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 I suspect that, in addition to weight, the density of the material may have some bearing. In spite of Gc's ramblings about how vibrations stop at the saddle, this is not so. My source on this is an engineering background and a knowledge of wave behavior. Any slide or dobro player knows that they need to use their hand to mute the string in back of the slide to get the purest tone. This is empirical proof that the string section in back of the termination will vibrate. The ball of the string is held in pace by the bridgepin, and will sit wedged into position with the bridge plate on one side and the bridgepin on the other.So my belief is that the ball is transmitting its vibrations to the guitar through both the bridgepin and the bridge plate. Like the saddle then, the sound will be affected by the material characteristics of the bridgepin since it is a transfer medium.But - this is not proven, it is just my belief. But if you walk through the termination system, as I just did, it is a logical conclusion based upon solid physics.I expect that the weight of the bridgepins is the more significant, but not the only, contributor. Any vibration energy being fed by the ball-end, i think would be miniscule. Density of any bridge pin, would just either increase, or decrease the bridge mass. I worked on these questions for 7 years, when i was designing our low-mass pinless bridge. Looking for different approaches to the problems, and this agrees with acoustic coupling and damping theories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Guitar_stringer Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 So can Gary Palmer come back now? I miss him... You'd have to ask Gary, but he got pretty fed up with the constant bickering, and derisive statements made to him here. I did too, that's why I hardly post here anymore. I'm just stating the true facts, in order to put this fire out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members totamus Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 Your field work is far superior to my theoretical musings. I can see that there is a near certainty that the ball end end would transmit some energy via the bridgepin, but I am wholly unable to quantify. Your field work has done that. Thanks for your clarification! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Guitar_stringer Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 Your field work is far superior to my theoretical musings. I can see that there is a near certainty that the ball end end would transmit some energy via the bridgepin, but I am wholly unable to quantify. Your field work has done that.Thanks for your clarification! Totamus, I am certain there is some interaction with the ball end, but the energy being imparted by it is too miniscule to measure at this point. After all, it is all a system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bigald18 Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 Galabar nailed it! I was going to stay out of this fish fry, but this man deserves a cigar. Bridge pins of different weights, will alter the mass of the bridge, changing the impedance of the bridge, and resulting in a change of the top's resonance. Thus resulting in tonal change. Example: Stock Martin Ebony Bridge: weight = 36.0 grams 6 Stock Plastic Bridge Pins @ 3.1 grams each = 18.6 grams Total stock bridge/pin weight = 54.6 grams Substituting 6 Ebony bridge pins @ 4.54 grams each = 27.24 grams Our Stock Martin Ebony Bridge: weight = 36.0 grams New total bridge/pin weight = 63.24 grams Difference in bridge/pin weight from stock: = + 8.84 grams Not a huge difference, but a perceptable difference just the same. By the way, every part we put in a guitar get's measured and weighed like this. So there you have it!! Thank you so much for this info. It clarifies a lot of things. Maybe some of the would be luthiers will finally understand. I, too, wish both you and Gary Palmer would come back to the forum on a regular basis. It's hard to believe that a thread could get this long just because a guy put new bridge pins on his git!BigAl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brokepick Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 Thank you so much for this info. It clarifies a lot of things. Maybe some of the would be luthiers will finally understand. I, too, wish both you and Gary Palmer would come back to the forum on a regular basis. It's hard to believe that a thread could get this long just because a guy put new bridge pins on his git! BigAl Many may look at this thread as having no value, but some things got accomplished. The bad: There's been some insults thrown around. There's probably some new additions to ignore lists. There's probably a few members who won't be posting as much now. There's probably a few members who won't be back. HCAG got some bad press. The good: There's been more or less of an agreement that bridge pins make some difference in sound, albeit a small difference, maybe. A charlatan or two who were claiming to be authorities on guitars have been exposed. Maybe that charlatan won't be taken so seriously from now on. Maybe that charlatan will learn something from this. Maybe I learned something from this. Maybe someone else learned something from this. Maybe not. Life goes on at HCAG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members knockwood Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 Ditka. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jamesp Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 "More or less - some - small - maybe." BP, I like to think of myself as one of the "we," but even having read the whole trainwreck, the only conclusion I'd agree with would be the last one. Life goes on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members totamus Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 Well, Bridgepin theory aside - I have been pretty entertained by this thread. I especially liked the part where the Emperor was wearing no clothes. Nazi's, health care, a new romance with Krash, painted capos, sugar cubes in swimming pools, Sami rocking on an Electric, Misha inviting us for drinks, real diamonds vs manmade, the list just never ends. Truly the Seinfeld of threads. Oh, and Guitarcapo is an ass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 Any vibration energy being fed by the ball-end, i think would be miniscule. Density of any bridge pin, would just either increase, or decrease the bridge mass. I worked on these questions for 7 years, when i was designing our low-mass pinless bridge. Looking for different approaches to the problems, and this agrees with acoustic coupling and damping theories. I haven't spent 7 years on this question. Only 5 minutes googling, in fact. It seems that there are two factors at play here: mass of the bridge and the resonance frequency of the bridge. And it appears that the materials affecting the resonance frequency are the more important factor. In studies of "Master" violins, they found that bridges with the widest range of resonance frequencies in the 1.5-4KHz band had the largest effect on sound output over the entire frequency range tested. So choose your bridge pins based on their natural resonance frequencies. I think you need eigenvectors to calculate this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members totamus Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 I believe the resonance would be the entire termination system, including the bridgepins. So their specific resonance is not important, but the degree to which their mass affects the overall termination system resonance does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 I believe the resonance would be the entire termination system, including the bridgepins. So their specific resonance is not important, but the degree to which their mass affects the overall termination system resonance does. That's a perfectly good hypothesis. Now go forth and test it. My hypothesis is that choosing bridge pins made of the same material as the bridge (e.g., ebony pins for an ebony bridge) will color the sound the *least*. So if you want to color the sound, experiment with materials that are different than the bridge material in order to extend the range of resonant frequencies of the bridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ohioarrow Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 Most cool.. Now that we seem to have come to a consensus, we can go ahead and market these puppies ... Make us all some weekend beer money! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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