Members Guitar_stringer Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 I haven't spent 7 years on this question. Only 5 minutes googling, in fact. It seems that there are two factors at play here: mass of the bridge and the resonance frequency of the bridge. And it appears that the materials affecting the resonance frequency are the more important factor. In studies of "Master" violins, they found that bridges with the widest range of resonance frequencies in the 1.5-4KHz band had the largest effect on sound output over the entire frequency range tested. So choose your bridge pins based on their natural resonance frequencies. I think you need eigenvectors to calculate this. It's just the total bridge mass that concerns us. Since the pins are captured in the bridge pin holes, their own resonance is nulled at that point. The total impedance of the bridge/pin assembly dictates what the local resonance is.Vectors other then force vectors (shear, torque), were not explored. The bandwidths of guitars and violins are vastly different, but you do hit on an interesting point. The reason I developed our low-mass bridge, was to have more bandwith to work with. This allows us more leeway to voice the tops of our guitars, to a broader tonal spectrum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 Since the pins are captured in the bridge pin holes, their own resonance is nulled at that point. I'm just trying to do my part to push this thread toward 40 pages, but this point seems counterintuitive to me. The natural resonance frequency of a compound material isn't easily determined, right? And the resonance frequencies of the driver (bridge) of a guitar should have an important impact on how the git sounds, right? These guys model the expected change in bridge impedance with frequency here: http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jos/pasp/Guitar_Bridge_Impedance.html But, of course, their models don't predict the physical reality perfectly. And the book Springer handbook of acoustics by Thomas D. Rossing goes into some interested bridge experiments with violins on page 573. I'm just sayin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JasmineTea Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 Rob, The last time i got involved in this bridge pin deal, both Gary Palmer and I took a load of crap. That's why I remained silent. I've posted links to the physics of this stuff more than once, and got insulted by GP and your jackass for doing so. Then I was told what I could and could not hear. Then I was called some more names by you and your homey GP. Etc and {censored}ing etc. You're full of {censored}, pal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jamesp Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 Poetry Break! Tell all the Truth but tell it slant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Galabar Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 I've posted links to the physics of this stuff more than once, and got insulted by GP and your jackass for doing so.Then I was told what I could and could not hear. Then I was called some more names by you and your homey GP. Etc and {censored}ing etc.You're full of {censored}, pal. 50 pages!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jamesp Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 It's just the total bridge mass that concerns us. Since the pins are captured in the bridge pin holes, their own resonance is nulled at that point. The total impedance of the bridge/pin assembly dictates what the local resonance is. So would you give any creedance to the idea that someone could "tune" their bridge using bridgepins? Say for example, using ebony to warm up the unwound strings and ivory to impart clarity to the D and G? Edited to add link I'm interested in: http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showpost.php?p=35613647&postcount=230 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members knockwood Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 One sure way to get caught in a hassle Is to ram bits of fruit up your asshole My good friend from Montana Had this thing for bananas Until one day when something went terribly, terribly wrong... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarcapo Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 Some luthiers returned my emails.I sent out about 20 this morning to luthiers who build flattop acoustics (I just googled "luthier" and picked out hand builders with web pages and mailed to their "contact" email addressand this is the total of responses I got this evening. I have edited nothing out and have printed here all the replies I received:I'm taking a poll among prominent luthiers and would like your input to a question:If you were to change the bridge pins on a flat top steel string acoustic guitar from, say, plastic to ebony...would there be a difference in the sound the guitar makes?http://www.polingguitars.com/IMO, the difference is very minimal at best.Sincerely, Brock Polinghttp://www.esomogyi.com/The difference in mass between ebony and plastic is negligible. No one could hear that. However, it might make a greater difference if the pins and strings were individually fitted, as I do on my guitars. Each relief slot/hole for each string is custom-made so that each string is individually fitted and the pins/strings are tight as corks. This makes for a better coupler between the strings and the bridge, and hence the rest of the soundbox.The arrangement in which the pins are pre-slotted for the largest diameter string, and the first five strings are fitted into larger holes/channels, allows for a small amount of slop.I devote a chapter in my just-published book to the topic of such coupling-points.Yours, Ervin Somogyihttp://joelguitars.comJason, I would say that the pins do make a difference but it would be a verysubtle change. I would love to hear the results of your survey.Best, Joel Knadlerhttp://sexauerluthier.comSome say they do, but it's too subtle for me. Thanks,Bruce Sexauerhttp://www.robertbreweryoung.com/Yes, though most would say it is not perceptible. The contact pointbeing of a resonant vs. a damping material will enhance one aspect ofthe sound. Yours,Robert Younghttp://www.alcarruthluthier.com/_I_ probably would not hear a difference, but my hearing is terrible.I would not expect to hear much, if ant, difference, switching from plastic to wood. IMO, the major effect of bridge pins on tone is probably from the mass, and wood pins don't weigh much more or less than plastic ones. I'm pretty skeptical about the supposed sound transmission properties of things like ivory or brass or titanium, and rather suspect it's a case of people hearing what they expect to hear.Alan Carruth / Luthier Davy Stuart, Luthier,202 Rockinghorse Road, Southshore,Christchurch, 8062, NZ.ph (03)388 6667http://www.stuart.co.nzDear Guitarcapo, all the wisdom out there on the net says that it will, but, to be honest, I've never actually tried! How slack is that?My own take is that there would be more sound change dependent on the choice of strings - and the strings that suit one player on a particular guitar aren't necessarily what will work for another..regardsDavy Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 Now invite two of them with opposing viewpoints to discuss it in this thread. And only one of them leaves alive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members littlemilo Posted August 1, 2009 Members Share Posted August 1, 2009 Tonal impact: Ditka > Bridge Pins > Fingerboard Material > Heelcap Material > Headplate Veneer > Guitar I really didn't want to enter the fray here, but this I take exception to. Ditka? Really? I mean, he was a good coach and all, but I never cared for his tone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brokepick Posted August 1, 2009 Members Share Posted August 1, 2009 Some luthiers returned my emails. I sent out about 20 this morning to luthiers who build flattop acoustics (I just googled "luthier" and picked out hand builders with web pages and mailed to their "contact" email address and this is the total of responses I got this evening. I have edited nothing out and have printed here all the replies I received: ... Your original and rather forceful argument was that bridge pins make NO perceptible difference in the sound of a guitar, (and before that it was tonewoods ). You have evidently gone to great lengths to try to find evidence to support your claim, and it looks to me like you still haven't found it.You've destroyed any credibility you might have had by doing this. You will convince no one here of anything except of your foolishness. Why do you continue to argue a clearly indefensible point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarcapo Posted August 1, 2009 Members Share Posted August 1, 2009 Whatever dude. Grab on to that tiny little belief with your tiny little fist. Minimal AT BEST. Sounds like a sugar cube in the swimming pool to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarcapo Posted August 1, 2009 Members Share Posted August 1, 2009 Now invite two of them with opposing viewpoints to discuss it in this thread. And only one of them leaves alive! Those were all the replies I received. I cut/pasted them all to be fair.I couldn't find any luthiers that really thought bridge pins made enough of a difference to get a good fight going. If any of you can find one please invite them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brokepick Posted August 1, 2009 Members Share Posted August 1, 2009 Whatever dude. Grab on to that tiny little belief with your tiny little fist.Minimal at best. Sounds like a sugar cube in the swimming pool to me. You use that "whatever" a lot, without really meaning it. Belittling others and showing your contempt seems to be your best defense tactic. Compensating for your own insignificance perhaps? Does it make you feel better? Oh well, whatever. Oh, and Guitarcapo is an ass. Not original, but it fits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted August 1, 2009 Members Share Posted August 1, 2009 Nobody thinks that bridge pins are a primary factor in gitsounds, but I thought there was a nice spectrum of opinions there: 1) Mass is what matters, and since the mass difference is small, it doesn't matter. 2) Resonance and damping properties of the bridge pin material matter. 3) Fit matters, and the degree of coupling between the strings and bridge is a function of bridge pin fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted August 1, 2009 Members Share Posted August 1, 2009 Nobody thinks that bridge pins are a primary factor in gitsounds, but I thought there was a nice spectrum of opinions there:1) Mass is what matters, and since the mass difference is small, it doesn't matter.2) Resonance and damping properties of the bridge pin material matter.3) Fit matters, and the degree of coupling between the strings and bridge is a function of bridge pin fit. Good summary, gitnoob! I did a little experiment to determine the biggest factors. I put two materials with similar mass but different resonance frequencies on the bridge just south of the bridge pins. 1) No added mass. Git sounded pretty. 2) Added mass had a known resonance frequency: a tuning fork (329.6Hz). Git sounded like crap. 3) Added mass had an unknown resonance frequency: a magnifying glass. Git sounded like crap, but a different kind of crap. Conclusion: putting stuff on your git will make it sound like crap. Most of the crappy sound is due to the vibration of the unfixed material, which supports the bad-fitting bridge pin theory above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JasmineTea Posted August 1, 2009 Members Share Posted August 1, 2009 Liposuction break... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members seagullplayer77 Posted August 1, 2009 Members Share Posted August 1, 2009 50 pages!!!If you had said that when the thread started, I would've called you crazy and suggested that you get your head checked.Now, you very well may be right .This is almost as bad as the whole s**t-box thread that caused all kinds of mischief last year. This thread has become a train wreck of monumental proportions.Best train wreck I've ever seen, though !Very well. Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members outdoorgb Posted August 1, 2009 Members Share Posted August 1, 2009 I have a little secret directly related to bridge pins....I'm not gonna say anything until tomorrow 'cause I busy right now. But oh my, bridge pins or not...its fun... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members outdoorgb Posted August 1, 2009 Members Share Posted August 1, 2009 I have a little secret directly related to bridge pins....I'm not gonna say anything until tomorrow 'cause I busy right now. But oh my, bridge pins or not...its fun... you shut up asshat....we don't need your kind aroung here:mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members outdoorgb Posted August 1, 2009 Members Share Posted August 1, 2009 you shut up asshat....we don't need your kind aroung here:mad: kiss my bridge pins Breedlover:mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarcapo Posted August 1, 2009 Members Share Posted August 1, 2009 You use that "whatever" a lot, without really meaning it. Belittling others and showing your contempt seems to be your best defense tactic. Compensating for your own insignificance perhaps? Does it make you feel better? Oh well, whatever. Oh, and Guitarcapo is an ass. Not original, but it fits. My defense has been to offer legit links and luthier's opinions. You seem more comfortable calling names to defend your position.When you offer up information and get names and personal attacks thrown back at you in the name of reasonable debate...nothing's left to say but: "whatever" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JasmineTea Posted August 1, 2009 Members Share Posted August 1, 2009 Group Liposuction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarcapo Posted August 1, 2009 Members Share Posted August 1, 2009 BTW one more luthier responded: I see 2 issues regarding pins. One is the weight of the pins which would lower the pitch and slow the interaction with the sound board. The other is the length of the pins. I shorten mine to reduce vibration. As the ebony ones don't weigh much more than plastic, I think it would be hard to pick the difference. The only reason I don't use Ebony pins is that they are wider and cannot be replaced with plastic ones if you lose one. Brass pins on the other hand should be noticeably different. Thanks...Daniel www.danielbrauchli.com To which I responded with a follow up question that if weight alone was an issue would taping a penny or two to the bridge have the same effect. I will post his response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JasmineTea Posted August 1, 2009 Members Share Posted August 1, 2009 I will post his response.As if I'm gonna let him or you or any other boneheaded-dumbass-wanna-{censored}ing-be-internet-luthier tell me what I can and cannot hear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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