Gun or Guitar? Desisions,decisons!

[FretFiend.]

...However, I also have no doubt that the relative ease of procurring a gun in the USA contributes to thousands of unecessary deaths. Killing either yourself or some-one else with a gun is easier, less personal and more effective than by other methods. Some-one mentioned that, of the fatalities I quoted, approx half were suicides. Well OK - but don't most of us believe that an attempt at suicide is a "cry for help"? - it's very difficult to provide help to some-one who has blown the top of his/her head off but it can happen when a suicide attempt (by overdose etc) is unsuccessful. If one prorata'ers the 2007 UK firearm deaths (which were 51) to the US population we get approx 250 whereas the actual US deaths in that year were 31,224 - that's 125:1. Now I think that is pretty scarey - each and every US citizen is 125 times more likely to be shot and die than each and every UK citizen! And that is just fatalities: approx another 70,000 US citizens were shot and wounded but survived with god know's what trauma and injury! And you still think it's nothing to do with the possesion of firearms? PS. I just play guitar too.

So everyone in the US is killing each other with firearms. You are in the UK where it's nice and safe. What's the problem?

[missedmyexit]

Gotta agree. I've found that large noisy dogs are much more effective in keeping burglaries from happening...any semi-competent thief can bypass ANY alarm system w/o ever being heard. A house guarded by trained dog (or in our case, several) hasn't that weakness.

I have a uncle who was a cop for years and told me this when I bought my first house. Here at least everyone has a sticker saying you have a alarm, they don't know until they are in your house if it's true and then why not grab some stuff and run. Dogs on the other hand bark when they approach and make noise when the would be thief is still out in the open which make then walk on by and find a less risky target.

[missedmyexit]

Hmmm, Westerly or Corona?

Corona, which with all the talk I was weary on buying over the net. I made sure I could get a full refund before buying.... Once I played it I knew it was never going back. Had it for over a year and it's starting to get harder and harder to put it down and work my other guitars into the playing rotation. I recently traded another guitar for a Gibby Advanced Jumbo, great guitar, played it for a week then started missing the Guild. It's just that good.

[fastblueheeler]

I'm a big fan of dogs! No man or beast gets within 50 feet of the house without my little mutt going crazy. She takes home security very seriously.

[garthman]

So everyone in the US is killing each other with firearms. You are in the UK where it's nice and safe. What's the problem?

No problem to me but surely you must have some concerns? Or are you "all right, Jack"?

[missedmyexit]

Some-one mentioned that, of the fatalities I quoted, approx half were suicides. Well OK - but don't most of us believe that an attempt at suicide is a "cry for help"? - it's very difficult to provide help to some-one who has blown the top of his/her head off but it can happen when a suicide attempt (by overdose etc) is unsuccessful.

 

 

I'm not sure if that is accurate. Slashing your wrists the wrong way, or taking enough pills to put you in hospital but not kill you is a cry for help. Eating a shotgun is a sincere statement that you want end it. I do not believe that taking the guns away will save people who truly want to end their lives.

[totamus]

And you still think it's nothing to do with the possesion of firearms?

 

 

Well, I would say that is correct. Firearms are not the causal agent. For whatever reason, Americas cities have lawless, crime infested areas where there is no safety. These areas are responsible for the abysmal statistics. They would continue to be lawless and dangerous without guns.

 

Guns - legally in the hands of citizens - stop more crime than they cause. Guns illegally in the hands of criminals are used for more crime. The guns are already illegal. There are a plethora of laws aimed at the criminal ownership of guns. Our most crime infested cities already outlaw all guns, and those cities have the highest mortality rates.

 

Further legislating gun ownership simply removes them from law abiding citizens.

 

The problem is not the gun. It is a culture of lawlessness and disregard for life that exists in our larger cities.

 

As an engineer, I learned to separate the cause from the effect. Focusing on guns is trying to fix a problem by attacking the effect. The problem won't go away as long as the causal agent remains.

[garthman]

I'm not sure if that is accurate. Slashing your wrists the wrong way, or taking enough pills to put you in hospital but not kill you is a cry for help. Eating a shotgun is a sincere statement that you want end it. I do not believe that taking the guns away will save people who truly want to end their lives.

 

 

False logic I think, Keith. Most people who attempt suicide really do want to kill themselves - at least at the time that they make the attempt. They do not deliberately "fudge" the attempt to gain attention - they merely fail because the method used lacks the speed and more or less finality of a bullet through the brain. It is when the attempt fails that treatment can kick in and hopefully lead to recovery.

[sixgunner455]

... However, I also have no doubt that the relative ease of procurring a gun in the USA contributes to thousands of unecessary deaths. Killing either yourself or some-one else with a gun is easier, less personal and more effective than by other methods ... If one prorata'ers the 2007 UK firearm deaths (which were 51) to the US population we get approx 250 whereas the actual US deaths in that year were 31,224 - that's 125:1. Now I think that is pretty scarey - each and every US citizen is 125 times more likely to be shot and die than each and every UK citizen! And that is just fatalities: approx another 70,000 US citizens were shot and wounded but survived with god know's what trauma and injury! And you still think it's nothing to do with the possesion of firearms? PS. I just play guitar too.

 

 

It's kind of hard to compare violent crime stats when you divide it out only by type and ignore the overall violent crime in both countries. There are so many differences between the U.S. and the U.K. in how our laws are structured, society, and so forth. If you look only at firearms violence, you would expect exactly what you see in the stats you quoted - because there are so many guns in the U.S., and so few in the U.K.

 

I think you will find something else if you allow into your consideration other types of violent crimes.

 

Firearms aren't the evil bogeymen that cause violent crimes. Violence, murder, mayhem, and death have existed as long as there have been people. Firearms make it easier for the physically weak to protect themselves from the physically strong, or for the few to protect themselves from the many.

 

Consider, if you will, the racial/ethnic violence that has plagued many African nations in the past half-century. Most of the murders were committed with machetes and farm implements. Millions have died. Rape is rampant. Firearms in the hands of the populace might have made things worse, but they also might have made things better - because the small farms in the hinterlands, had they been able to arm themselves with proper firearms would have made much less attractive targets. A woman with a revolver in her hand is a much less attractive rape target.

 

And so on.

 

Guns have nothing to do with the fact that humans harm and kill each other. They are simply implements that are sometimes used for evil, and sometimes used to prevent evil.

[23miles]

Time to end all the dorm room phony statistics about firearms and crime. Economics professor John Lott, Phd decisively researched the issue and his findings were notable...

 

 

Sorry, my man. You lost me at "Economics professor." I think it was Herbert Hoover who once said, "How do you get three opinions on the economy? Ask two economists!"

Of all the academic disciplines, I can imagine one built on as shaky a foundation of utter bull{censored} as Economics. Economics is not a science, it is a belief system. Economists are taught to be-{censored} themselves intellectually to justify their beliefs.

[valentsgrif]

utter bull{censored} as Economics. Economics is not a science, it is a belief system. Economists are taught to be-{censored} themselves intellectually to justify their beliefs.

 

 

Funny, the US Federal Reserve, all major banks and corporations and the government of every nation retains economists at top dollar to make math based economic projections that affect commerce policy, taxation and financial risk taking. I guess they don't know as much as you.

 

Stay lost young man. Stay lost.

[Raj]

Course, that'll be why the major banks, corporations and national governments are in such tip-top financial shape.

 

You really think that, e.g., Alan Greenspan deserved all that wealth and power?

[garthman]

Course, that'll be why the major banks, corporations and national governments are in such tip-top financial shape. You really think that, e.g., Alan Greenspan deserved all that wealth and power?

 

 

Yeah - I suppose that's a good reason to own a gun.

[Axegrinder009]

I was looking at stats on suicide recently because a dear friend slashed her wrists. A call for help, and not a real attempt at killing herself. Overdoses are only about 3% sucessful in suicide attempts. Jumping from a high place is about 60% effective. A shot to the head is over 95% fatal, and the the ones that fail probably used a too small caliber weapon, like a .25. .22 LR is usually effective. A bullet in the brain is by far the most effective way of killing yourself in the USA. Technology makes this possible.

Let's not forget that the mayor of Nagasaki was shot in the head in a public place by a thug using a handgun. Handguns are essentially banned in the entire island country of Japan. In that same country, a man recently went wacky and murdered 7 people with a knife. In China there has been a spate of men attacking children and staff at orphan care centers with knives.

Guns are just a technology that allows folks to wreak havoc more effectively. They are tools, just like a guitar is a tool for making noise. If the noise that a guitar makes is pleasant, we might call it music. There are a lot more firearms in the USA than people, and yet it's the criminals and mentally or emotionally unstable that are the culprits in firearm murders, not the armed citizen. Like ALL of the articles in the Bill of Rights, the right to have a firearm is an individual right. You are in no way obligated to exercise that particular right if you don't want to.

I and my neighbors and co-workers and friends here in Texas are armed to the teeth, but I feel completely safe because they are decent, law-abiding citizens and pose no risk to me or my family or my property or my freedoms.

So...save some dough and buy the guitar AND the gun.

That has always worked for me.

[valentsgrif]

Course, that'll be why the major banks, corporations and national governments are in such tip-top financial shape. You really think that, e.g., Alan Greenspan deserved all that wealth and power?

 

 

Well, this detour should be fun. Another lopsided battle of wits. I'll be gentle.

 

Businesses and governments used economists during the booming, high growth times also. Economists don't create or lose wealth. They advise policymakers who may, or may not act a given way with the information provided. Economists mathematically explain; they graph and they project along a graph point on a line.

 

I don't know what Greenspan "deserved" as far as wealth. He didn't steal it so I assume he deserved what his employers contracted to pay him. It really bothers you when someone else makes a lot of money huh?

[FretFiend.]

Well, well, well.

The thread started on whether to buy a gun or a guitar.

Then it became whether guns should be controlled.

Then it became how bad the gun violence problem is in the US vs the rest of the world.

Then it became a discussion on suicides.

Now it has become whether economists are any good.

Any chance of getting an opinion on whether saber toothed tiger tusk bridge pins will darken and sweeten the tone on my basswood backed Zager?

Oh, and Obama and his cronies are fanatic lefties.

And socialists!

[garthman]

Well, well, well. The thread started on whether to buy a gun or a guitar. Then it became whether guns should be controlled. Then it became how bad the gun violence problem is in the US vs the rest of the world. Then it became a discussion on suicides. Now it has become whether economists are any good. Any chance of getting an opinion on whether saber toothed tiger tusk bridge pins will darken and sweeten the tone on my basswood backed Zager? Oh, and Obama and his cronies are fanatic lefties. And socialists!

You're kidding, right?

[23miles]

Funny, the US Federal Reserve, all major banks and corporations and the government of every nation retains economists at top dollar to make math based economic projections that affect commerce policy, taxation and financial risk taking. I guess they don't know as much as you. Stay lost young man. Stay lost.

 

 

1. Oh, I see because they make money they must know what they are doing - that's not a very convincing argument.

 

2. Nearing the end of my 6th decade of life, I hardly qualify as young but I'll accept the compliment. My problem is that economists seem to refuse to acknowledge the laws of thermodynamics and therefore are prone to devising somewhat artificial theories and opinions that do not account for physical realities.

 

3. I stand by my original advice to the OP to make his decision based on which purchase was more likely to put meat on his table, which I suppose is an economic consideration.

[sixgunner455]

... 3. I stand by my original advice to the OP to make his decision based on which purchase was more likely to put meat on his table, which I suppose is an economic consideration.

 

 

I like that bit of advice.

[totamus]

[totamus]

[Tartanlad]

Id say guitars all the time as really guns aint needed

But hey thats a pic

[gull12]

This is just my $ .02.

I was a counselor for 37 years. I counseled alcoholics, drug addicts and abusers, prisoners, street people......you know, the good, the bad, and the ugly. In that time, I dealt with many people on both sides of the gun issue; people who had used guns, and also the victims of gun violence. Of all the people I talked with, over the years, there were no 'happy ending' stories, no matter the situation, just a lot of pain and misery - on both sides.

People tend to go for their guns in highly emotional situations. Emotions + firearms = bad news, every time. Self-defense is sometimes necessary - especially in this modern world. But that too causes serious problems. And when you add booze or drugs to the equation, look out.

The argument has been made that guns don't commit crimes. Granted. But when a person in a highly-emotional state has access to a firearm, crime becomes more inevitable. I would suggest that in your choice of a guitar or a gun, that you choose very carefully.

[Tartanlad]

This is just my $ .02. I was a counselor for 37 years. I counseled alcoholics, drug addicts and abusers, prisoners, street people......you know, the good, the bad, and the ugly. In that time, I dealt with many people on both sides of the gun issue; people who had used guns, and also the victims of gun violence. Of all the people I talked with, over the years, there were no 'happy ending' stories, no matter the situation, just a lot of pain and misery - on both sides. People tend to go for their guns in highly emotional situations. Emotions + firearms = bad news, every time. Self-defense is sometimes necessary - especially in this modern world. But that too causes serious problems. And when you add booze or drugs to the equation, look out. The argument has been made that guns don't commit crimes. Granted. But when a person in a highly-emotional state has access to a firearm, crime becomes more inevitable. I would suggest that in your choice of a guitar or a gun, that you choose very carefully.

Gull, Gd post and i agree with yer sentiments..but id say again to the OP
to choose a guitar as a guitar shall make you feel better in yourself
after awe music is an aid to making other people as well as yourself feel happy..whereas a gun isnt and it doesnt tke a scientist to realise such
wake up and be sensible

[poppytater]

Any chance of getting an opinion on whether saber toothed tiger tusk bridge pins will darken and sweeten the tone on my basswood backed Zager?

That's the kind of thinking that lead to the demise of saber toothed tigers.