Avid launches consumer versions of Pro Tools

[Jeff da Weasel]

PTE should have 24 tracks like the free version. 16 is just to skimpy IMHO.

 

 

A huge number of the greatest albums in history used 16 or less tracks. I'm not saying it's right for everyone, but having a lower track count actually forces you to plan ahead and think things through in a way that can actually result in a better finished product.

[blue2blue]

Hmm... I guess I thought from what you were saying that you had considerable familiarity with LE and its issues.

 

Here's an explainer on manual delay comp in LE/MP: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/tips-techniques/186501-plug-delay-compensation-protools-le-mp.html

 

Here's the info page for the MellowMuse Automatic Time Adjuster plug: http://www.mellowmuse.com/ATA.html (at $50 to add a semi-automated PDC workaround to LE/MP, it's probably a bargain).

 

(Some people appear to have difficulties with MM ATA regarding ping levels, etc. Unlike with other DAW's native PDC, the user is required to re-ping the system whenever he adds a plug or otherwise changes latency factors. A plus is that MM ATA does an actual ping, instead of blindly using the latency settings that the plugs declare.)

 

 

Again, I agree that getting some crippleware along with a mic for $100 is no real reason for griping; that said, folks who've shelled out a couple thou for an 002/003 system might have a case, to my way of thinking, when, far as I know, virtually all other prosumer DAWs do have PDC.

[blue2blue]

A huge number of the greatest albums in history used 16 or less tracks. I'm not saying it's right for everyone, but having a lower track count actually forces you to plan ahead and think things through in a way that can actually result in a better finished product.

The Who's Tommy was recorded on 8 track machines. Not my favorite album by a long stretch, but a big album with a lot going on. That said, I imagine there was plenty of bouncing and ping-ponging going on, as with the big 3 and 4 track projects of the 60s.

[myfriendfive]

16? 24? Not much difference as long as "Unlimited" exists. I see no reason why a person who only wants to commit $100 to an entry level recording system wouldn't be happy with 16 tracks. You can develop some really good work habits if you know that you just can't keep adding things and sort them out later. That's what makes really bad mixes come from the hands of beginners.

A band I was in years ago recorded all our demos on a Fostex G16S so I am very familiar with recording on 16 tracks with minimal outboard gear. It can be done but, 24 tracks gives you that extra room for over dubs. If PTE had 24 tracks it would give it a prosumer feel and probably entice buyers a little more. BTW. I still have that old G16S and need to convert all of the demos to Pro Tools one day.

[MikeRivers]

It can be done but, 24 tracks gives you that extra room for over dubs.

Heck, it can be done on one track, but that might mean having to actually put together a band and rehearse some songs before recording. Most of the recordings that I made which actually went to press (as opposed to demos, broadcast, and archival recordings) were made on 8 tracks with occasional punch-ins but rarely overdubs.

 

I don't understand the magic about the number 24 other than that with a very few exceptions, that's where analog recorders stopped. Sure, 24 tracks gives you room for overdubs over 16, but 16 tracks gives you room for overdubs over 8, and how many people have input hardware with more than 8 inputs today anyway? The people who buy AmateurTools will have only one input, so nearly everything they do short of spoken word or mono recordings will be an overdub.

 

When you fill up 14 tracks, you mix and bounce, then you'll have another 14 on which to do overdubs - better than 8 more. And when you work that way, you'll be less likely to keep that mediocre take "just in case you never get a better one" and dammit, DO a better one.

[MikeRivers]

Hmm... I guess I thought from what you were saying that you had considerable familiarity with LE and its issues.

Not me. I've never used ProTools. I remember that when other DAW programs were coming up with latency compensation, all the ProTools users (whatever version) were grumbling that they didn't have it. And I guess that they still don't, other than on the HD version.

Here's the info page for the MellowMuse Automatic Time Adjuster plug

Yes, I remember reading about that. I think it's absolutely brilliant, and I'll bet it really works, too. I suppose that in a workthrash (as opposed to workflow) environment where you throw plugs around willy-nilly just to see what they can do, it might be a bit of an annoyance to have to press the P key and wait a couple of seconds to listen to the song with the new plug-in. But then, if you're just auditioning plug-ins, unless you're adding one with several hundred samples of latency, it's really not that important if the track is a bit out of time. In fact, it might even make it easier to hear what you want to hear about what the plug-in does for the song.

Again, I agree that getting some crippleware along with a mic for $100 is no real reason for griping

And speaking of crippled, how's ProTools Cheap doing as a MIDI sequencer? That was always a weak spot with ProTools, and with only one mic or keyboard controller, I expect there will be a lot of MIDI (with virtual instruments) being used.

that said, folks who've shelled out a couple thou for an 002/003 system might have a case, to my way of thinking

You mean that with the introduction of this new package, they might find that they can get everything they need for a grand less, because they never used more than one input of the 003 anyway? That's progress for you. I suppose I should be pissed because in 1986 I paid $7500 for my Soundcraft 600 console when I can get a Mackie Onyx 1640 today for $1500. Of course the Mackie doesn't have 24 mic inputs and 16 tape monitor returns, or a meter bridge, or 8 subgroup buses, but then, what the heck, how often do I use any of that these days anyway?

[Jon Gnash]

If they weren't, it would be really dumb. Avid is smarter than that.

Avid Free DV project files were not compatible with other Avid systems.

Oops.

[myfriendfive]

I don't understand the magic about the number 24

Pro Tools free had/has 24 tracks so... ...if you have to pay for PTE via a equipment purchase why not expect it to at least have as many tracks as the free version.

[Phil O'Keefe]

As I recall from the press release (which is the only information I've seen so far) all it says is that it comes with fewer plug-ins than the standard M-Powered ProTools (which, in itself, comes with fewer plug-ins than LE)

 

Actually, IIRC, PTLE and PTMP come with the same bundled plug-ins, but Gus can probably give us the definitive answer on that.

 

As far as your question regarding MIDI in Pro Tools, it got better with version 7, and is a whole new world with PT 8.

 

As far as the MIDI implementation on the "new" "consumer" version, we'll have to wait and see what's in it.

[MikeRivers]

 

* The Mackie thing is something real, however it is being managed by the legal departments on both sides yet, as far as I know and there's no final resolution at this moment.

 

Gus -

 

Did something just happen? Mackie now has the Onyx i series up on their web site with ProTools M-Powered in the list of compatible software. There's a footnote, though:

 

*The Onyx-i Series Mixers are qualified by Mackie for use with Pro Tools

[Anderton]

*The Onyx-i Series Mixers are qualified by Mackie for use with Pro Tools

[Kerouac]

The Who's Tommy was recorded on 8 track machines. Not my favorite album by a long stretch, but a big album with a lot going on. That said, I imagine there was plenty of bouncing and ping-ponging going on, as with the big 3 and 4 track projects of the 60s.

It also had The Who, world class engineers and producers who knew how to bounce down to multiple tracks onto a single channel. With digital technology that isn't necessary and while it certainly can help to train one's ears, that adds another level of complexity and learning curve to an already daunting task for newbies.

Plus, just because you have the space doesn't mean you have to use it,.

[UstadKhanAli]

I realize that everybody works in their own way, and have been told that people who are working in the film industry especially need lots of tracks.

 

For tracking most rock bands in my studio, I use somewhere around 20-28 tracks, with many of my own personal projects around 21-22 tracks. With tons of background vocals, I've gotten up to the low 30s before, but usually knock it back down by sub-mixing the background vocals.

 

The biggest thing that irritates me when working with Pro Tools is the lack of latency compensation (and yes, I have MellowMuse ATA) and lack of track freezing. Otherwise, it's rock solid, edits and records efficiently, and works how it's supposed to, is logically laid out, yadda yadda. It's fine. It allows me to get down to being creative quickly, and that's all I really care about.

[Huh?]

PTE should have 24 tracks like the free version. 16 is just to skimpy IMHO.

Pro Tools 8 supports up to 48 simultaneous tracks, Mono or Stereo at both 48kHz and 96kHz. You also have the DV Toolkit which if you purchase that you can get up to 64 tracks.

Surely this is enough?

[Gus Lozada]

 

Gus -   Did something just happen? Mackie now has the Onyx i series up on their web site with ProTools M-Powered in the list of compatible software. There's a footnote, though:   *The Onyx-i Series Mixers are qualified by Mackie for use with Pro Tools

[blue2blue]

When you fill up 14 tracks, you mix and bounce, then you'll have another 14 on which to do overdubs - better than 8 more. And when you work that way, you'll be less likely to keep that mediocre take "just in case you never get a better one" and dammit, DO a better one.

 

I'll allow the puritan virtues of avoiding waste and excess but I think what offends many folks' sensibilities is the notion that -- unlike tape machines where limitations were based on legitimate production cost considerations, an arbitrary restriction on track count seems somehow nonsensical.

 

That said, I don't see where products like Sonar Home Studio (or whatever it's called) which have what one could see as arbitrary restrictions to separate it from higher tiered products seem to offend folks in the same way that PT LE/MP's track restrictions used to.

 

And that said, I don't see the grousing about PT LE track restrictions at anywhere nearly the same level since Digi started selling upgrades that let folks add more tracks as they need. That seemed to relieve some pressure, actually, even though it means more money out of folks' pockets if they want to take advantage of it.

 

By the same token, I've seen a lot of folks saying, look, just give us PDC in an add-on package if you need to fund the R&D to add it to the engine.

 

I think a lot of folks see it as a perplexing technical failure on Digi's part. A failure to keep up with competition.

 

That produces various states of dynamic tension in PT LE/MP users, some of whom seem ever-poised on the decision to jump ship for another DAW -- and clearly at this point a lot of folks have jumped ship, many going to the reinvigorated Logic. (Which seems to have even more drama/trauma but that's for another thread, eh?)

[Huh?]

Only the bigger products -such 003 Rack + and 003 Factory Complete - have an extra pack of plug-ins.

 

The MBox Mini has the same plug in's, virtual instruments and bundled software as the 003.

 

Pro Tools 8 comes with a great set of plugs and stuff.

[Huh?]

What PTLE track restrictions are we talking about?

[Gus Lozada]

The MBox Mini has the same plug in's, virtual instruments and bundled software as the 003.

 

 

Read carefully

[Geoff Grace]

By the same token, I've seen a lot of folks saying, look, just give us PDC in an add-on package if you need to fund the R&D to add it to the engine.

B, you're talking about APDC, not PDC, right?

PTLE has PDC, but not APDC.

Just FYI, FWIW.

Best,

-G

[MikeRivers]

 

FWIW, it works fine now with PTMP. However, Mackie says the next driver version contains several improvements.

 

I think that footnote was a political statement, not a functional one. The significant part of the statement is that operation with ProTools MP has been qualified by Mackie and not necessarily by Avid. On Mackie's i series support web page, there's a "Want to use your Onyx mixer with ProTools?" section pointing to the latest driver, Version 1.5.0.

[MikeRivers]

B , you're talking about APDC, not PDC, right? PTLE has PDC, but not APDC. Just FYI, FWIW. -G

 

Will you people quit talking in acronyms please?

[MikeRivers]

 

This is correct. Only the bigger products -such 003 Rack + and 003 Factory Complete - have an extra pack of plug-ins.

 

Well, that's what I get for reading on-line forums. When I posted something somewhere in a thread comparing prices for ProTools alternatives, I said something about it being necessary to buy the whole bundle including the software (an M-Box for instance) and going the M-Audio route, where the software and hardware needed to be purchased separately. The point that I was trying to make was that the cost was essentially that of the difference in the hardware and the greater range of hardware features available in the M-Audio line, and that in general, because the hardware was less expensive for roughly the equivalent features, the M-Audio route was a little cheaper. Someone "corrected" me saying that the M-Audio Pro Tools release contained fewer plug-ins than the Digidesign release and that the cost was really comparable when you bought plug-ins that filled the gap. But then that assumes that you actually want the plug-ins.

 

You read it right. I guess they can say whatever they want, at this moment . Not sure what would result from this.

 

Well, the driver currently on the Mackie Onyx Downloads web page says "Want to use your new mixer with ProTools?" and basically says to install this driver. I don't know what version comes in the box. The one on the web page is 1.5.0. It doesn't specifically say that it's only for the i series. It looks like the last pre-i-series driver 1.1.1.

[MikeRivers]

I'll allow the puritan virtues of avoiding waste and excess but I think what offends many folks' sensibilities is the notion that -- unlike tape machines where limitations were based on legitimate production cost considerations, an arbitrary restriction on track count seems somehow nonsensical.

One thing that makes it less nonsensical (for the manufacturers) is product support. If you're a rich kid with a guitar and a garage and you buy a $35,000 Otari MTR-90, as long as you can plug in the cables right, it will record and play 24 tracks, no skipping, no dropouts, no freezing, no updating this and that software. If instead you buy a software based system with unlimited tracks and know as little about computers as you do about analog tape decks, you may find that you can't get it to work reliably with more than 20 tracks. So you call the software manufacturer and the tech support person spends two hours on the phone with you troubleshooting your computer (that they didn't sell to you) trying to help you out. That probably blows all the profit from your $99 software package. By limiting (among other things) the number of tracks that you can use, they are probably staving off hundreds of hours of tech support time.

 

But on the other hand, by eliminating a feature that makes tracks line up without thinking about it when you apply a supplied plug-in, they may generate other calls to tech support about that issue, though at least aligning the tracks has a clear procedure which could be explained in the manual.

 

I really don't know about the actual numbers, but I'm sure that things like this, not just "we want to give you a good reason to buy the more expensive version, now or later" went into the decision to direct the "lite" version toward "lite" users.

I've seen a lot of folks saying, look, just give us PDC in an add-on package if you need to fund the R&D to add it to the engine.

Those are the users who are smart enough to ask about it. I think I'm pretty smart, but I never heard the acronym PDC until this discussion right here. But then, I was slow to adopt LDC and SDC, too.

That produces various states of dynamic tension in PT LE/MP users, some of whom seem ever-poised on the decision to jump ship for another DAW -- and clearly at this point a lot of folks have jumped ship, many going to the reinvigorated Logic. (Which seems to have even more drama/trauma but that's for another thread, eh?)

I have a PC. I can't go to Logic. I think that if Digidesign wants to keep customers like those who get a tinge of jealousy when they see a new, lower cost version come out, they need to come up with something that's between LE/MP and HD. But, sadly for us, this technology is getting to be more of a "lifestyle" thing, and manufacturers are jumping in to fill that very large market. Take BLUE mics for example. They aren't bringing out so many new mics for the pro studio these days, they're bringing out more new cheap mics for the plug-and-play crowd. Look at disk drives. Two years ago the shelves of Office Depot and Best Buy were full of IDE disk drives at really attractive prices, drives that required opening up the computer to install. Now they're nowhere to be seen, but those shelves are full of larger drives in USB enclosures, much more friendly to the much larger population who just wants to store their 20,000 photos that they'll never look at, or their hundreds of hours of home videos.

 

The market is changing. You have to know what you're looking for and where to find it if you're not a sheep.

[blue2blue]

B , you're talking about APDC, not PDC, right? PTLE has PDC, but not APDC. Just FYI, FWIW. Best, -G

By APDC do you mean automated plug delay compensation?

 

I suspect that's what most folks mean by PDC.

 

Certainly automated PDC seems to be what these folks mean by when they're talking about the issue: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/moan-...elay-comp.html

 

Is there something I'm missing?