Avid launches consumer versions of Pro Tools

[blue2blue]

 

What PTLE track restrictions are we talking about?

 

PT LE and MP can now have up to 48 stereo or mono tracks, so that's eased that complaint somewhat. There is also a 10 insert limit per track (that seems generous but at least some other DAWs have unlimited inserts with full routing delay comp.) And, I guess the number of buses is still limited to 32 (up from 16 in PT6, apparently). That also sounds generous but people still complain, as this post suggests.

[Bookumdano2]

Pro Tools

 

2009

 

 

Any flavor. Gotta have that name. Because when it gets down to it .....,

I forget what the reason was. There was a good reason I remember hearing in 1990. Don't remember it right now.

 

I think it was something about an industry that used to exist.

[Geoff Grace]

I suspect that's what most folks mean by PDC.

 

Probably, but then how do you distinguish between automatic plug-in delay compensation, which most DAWs have and manual plug-in delay compensation, which Pro Tools LE has?

 

Manual PDC is certainly not as good -- presuming that APDC is doing its job properly -- but it's also better than no PDC at all. And I think a lot of people infer that PTLE has no PDC at all, when people say that PTLE has no PDC.

 

Anyway, I just thought it might be good to be clear about this so there are no misunderstandings.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[blue2blue]

Geoff

 

I'm not sure I know precisely what you mean by manual plug delay...

 

I know this process: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/tips-...ols-le-mp.html*

 

Is there something else I don't know about?

 

(Keep in mind I'm not a PT user.)

 

 

 

*I'd scanned that really cursorily a couple times before but today was the first time I sort of sped-read it through... holy crap what a PITA! I mean really. Wow. I guess I'd never really thought through what a pain not having PDC is. I used to mix OTB and by the time I moved ITB, my DAW had PDC for supported plugs. (Although at first they were DX and DXi only -- they didn't offer direct VST support until about 4 or 5 versions ago, requiring a third party wrapper previously.)

[Geoff Grace]

That's basically it. I can see why it could be a PITA for people who do really complex mixes or who don't use templates much.

 

As for me, all I do is set it up once in a template, and after that the experience is the same as automatic PDC -- unless I later instantiate plug-ins that have a different delay from other plug-ins I'm using. Then, it's still only a matter of tweaking, not of setting things up from scratch.

 

One nice thing about Pro Tools is that you can import tracks from any session into any other session, so even if you don't use templates, you can still bring back any setting you created before without having to do it again from scratch. (Logic Pro 9 has this feature too, for what it's worth.)

 

But as I wrote above, I concede that manual PDC is certainly not as good -- presuming that APDC is doing its job properly -- but it's also better than no PDC at all.

 

By the way, there is a $49 third-party plug-in for PTLE that makes the PDC process semi-automatic (Auto Time Adjuster). A lot of people like it. Ken has it; maybe he'll chime in about it. I didn't purchase it because I never felt the need, considering that manual PDC hardly ever interrupts my workflow. But I do understand that this is very much a case of YMMV.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[blue2blue]

Good point on templates -- but since the whole delay comp thing is pretty interrelated, that cuts down on your flexibility. Change one thing and you might have to change a lot of things.

 

The MellowMuse ATA plug does look like a very good idea and well worth the 50 clams US, seems to me. Jeff Markham, the fellow who created that detailed tutorial on manual plug delay comp uses it, for instance. And, as they note on their site (and assuming it works as well as they suggest), it might actually return superior results (if not quite as easily) because it actually tests the delay of the plugs, rather than just querying them and trusting them. Those of us who've looked at the way that interface device drivers and DAWs often seem to mis-interact with regard to conversion delay compensation may have an extra appreciation of that...

[UstadKhanAli]

By the way, there is a $49 third-party plug-in for PTLE that makes the PDC process semi-automatic ( Auto Time Adjuster ). A lot of people like it. Ken has it; maybe he'll chime in about it. I didn't purchase it because I never felt the need, considering that manual PDC hardly ever interrupts my workflow. But I do understand that this is very much a case of YMMV.

 

MellowMuse ATA. It works extremely well, is relatively easy to set up, and does what it says it does. While I'm annoyed that Pro Tools continues to not have automatic latency compensation, I'm glad that this at least does the job.

 

It takes up one plugin bay or whatever they're called (sorry, I'm fried and I'm not super technical anyway) at the top of each channel. Also, if you add another plugin that creates latency after you've already pinged it, you have to ping it again. No big deal, but you have to remember to do it.

 

Thankfully, it's easy to use and is relatively cheap. Also, MellowMuse ATA no longer requires the VST-RTAS wrapper from FXPansion, which is nice, although it's still great to have that wrapper so you can use VST plugins anyway.

 

If you record acoustic drums, the ATA is quite necessary unless you enjoy figuring out how much delay your compressors are creating and like bobbing off the front of your audio. This will work, but it's irritating when you can get something that costs about the same as a steak dinner for two that will do it for you. IF you use a lot of subgroups and compress those, you might want to consider it as well.

 

If you work with electronic stuff or audio that are not acoustically "tied" together (I'm fried...or did I say that already?...but you know what I mean), then don't bother.

 

Geoff also makes some good points about the workflow of Pro Tools, and let's face it, we can always use workflow suggestions to save time and delay the onset of carpal tunnel.

[MikeRivers]

 

I concede that manual PDC is certainly not as good -- presuming that APDC is doing its job properly -- but it's also better than no PDC at all.

 

These things are only as good as the information that they have, and it amazes me that they work as well as they do. That MelloMuse one that puts a test pulse through the whole system and measures the actual delay, even though it's an extra step, should always work, and work right.

 

Do these things actually change the time stamp on all the tracks every time you add another plug-in? Or does it just make an adjusment in the Project file? If you don't know what it's doing, either way, it could cause complications when a project is moved from one computer to another without rendering all the processed tracks first.

 

This is such a can of worms, I don't know why everyone doesn't just go back to analog mixers and processing. Computers make such great recorders and editors, and such scatterbrained mixers.

[MikeRivers]

 

While I'm annoyed that Pro Tools continues to not have automatic latency compensation, I'm glad that this at least does the job.

 

I suppose that could be that it's still an imperfect concept in that it depends on information supplied by vendors that they can't (or won't take the time to) verify. Though given the near-closed nature of ProTools, I'm a bit surprised that they don't provide automatic compensation for the plug-ins that they provide or certify, possibly through a process where vendors submit their software to Digidesign along with some money.

[Gus Lozada]

Finally the products with Pro Tools Essentials are alive in the website:

 

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/ProToolsMPoweredRecordingStudio.html

 

The specs of PTE are in the "Full Specs" section.

[blue2blue]

 

This is such a can of worms, I don't know why everyone doesn't just go back to analog mixers and processing. Computers make such great recorders and editors, and such scatterbrained mixers.

 

Well... see, the thing is... pretty much all the other "lesser" DAWs already have automatic plug delay comp and don't require all this rigamarole.

 

My DAW has full delay comp for plug ins as well as full delay comp for all internal routing. (Unlike some DAWs, running parallel buses, one clean but one with a slug of plugs, does not result in time misalignment/phasing issues when the signals are recombined later in the chain.) My (two versions back) version also has a manual offset to adjust for any misreporting of driver latency (a common problem over the years); more recent versions have an automated ping utility to calibrate that alignment, which is also useful for calibrating delay comp for outboard hardware FX chains.

[MikeRivers]

 

Well... see, the thing is... pretty much all the other "lesser" DAWs already have automatic plug delay comp and don't require all this rigamarole.

 

But does it work correctly, with every plug-in, every time? And if it doesn't, what do you do? Compensate manually? Or use another plug-in?

 

My DAW has full delay comp for plug ins as well as full delay comp for all internal routing.

 

What DAW is that? And would I like it as well as working with hardware?

[blue2blue]

But does it work correctly, with every plug-in, every time? And if it doesn't, what do you do? Compensate manually? Or use another plug-in?

1) As far as I know, I'm not having any problems. I have tested a handful of plugs and the parallel bus routing scenario I laid out above, so I know it's accurate in those cases.

 

2) But if I was having problems with a given plug, yes, I would either comp manually or use another plug.

 

What DAW is that? And would I like it as well as working with hardware?

1) Sonar. 2) Beats me. But if I had to take a wild guess, I'd say, in your case, probably not.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Delay compensation was one of the deciding factors for me in my decision to go to a HD setup. It works great - even when using outboard effects with sends / returns done in the software. With LE, it was never a problem with many (but by no means ALL) plug-ins, as long as they were used inline on a track... as soon as you tried to use parallel compression via a aux send / return though, it became a major PITB.

[Anderton]

 

Delay compensation was one of the deciding factors for me in my decision to go to a HD setup. It works great - even when using outboard effects with sends / returns done in the software. With LE, it was never a problem with many (but by no means ALL) plug-ins, as long as they were used inline on a track... as soon as you tried to use parallel compression via a aux send / return though, it became a major PITB.

 

 

Yeah, I learned that the hard way several years back when I was doing a seminar where I only had a PTLE setup, and was unaware of the path delay compensation issue. "Okay class, now let's check out parallel compression with drums, and how it can really make your drum sound so much better!"

 

Ooops.

[Synonym Music]

 

Yeah, I learned that the hard way several years back when I was doing a seminar where I only had a PTLE setup, and was unaware of the path delay compensation issue. "Okay class, now let's check out parallel compression with drums, and how it can really make your drum sound so much better!" Ooops.

 

*Flam flam flam*

 

"Hey, wait a minute..."

[MikeRivers]

 

"Okay class, now let's check out parallel compression with drums, and how it can really make your drum sound so much better!"

 

"But first, we have to make a few adjustments. See, on the direct path, the neck bone is connected to the foot bone, but on the compressed path, the neck bone is connected to the back bone, and the back bone is connected to the hip bone, and the hip bone is connected to the thigh bone . . . . It takes a little longer to get to the speaker bone, so we have to delay everything else to let it catch up. We'll just nudge the track a few samples at a time until the drum stops flamming. There! That didn't take very long, did it?"

[Chet Muse]

I know that Mellowmuse ATA pings the audio path and makes timing adjustments based on delays it reads caused by the plug-ins

[blue2blue]

Yeah, I learned that the hard way several years back when I was doing a seminar where I only had a PTLE setup, and was unaware of the path delay compensation issue. "Okay class, now let's check out parallel compression with drums, and how it can really make your drum sound so much better!" Ooops.

Hey, it worked on Itchycoo Park...

 

[MikeRivers]

 

Finally the products with Pro Tools Essentials are alive in the website:

 

Kind of looks like a Fast Track USB with a free copy of ProTools Lite included. Not much different from similar packages with other hardware and Cubase LE or Sonar Home Studio (or whatever they are) bundled along with it. . . . . except that it's

 

(all bow down)

 

Pro Tools

[Chet Muse]

But is that delay the same whether three audio channels are sounding vs. 16? Is the overall delay from a channel insert exactly the same no matter how many other channels are active? And conversely, does the delay on a shared plug-in (e.g., a convolution reverb on an aux send) increase if 16 channels are accessing it at any given moment vs. one channel?

 

 

Pardon my bump (), but still seeking an answer as to how ATA works re "static vs. dynamic."

 

Also, for all the hue and cry about PTLE not having PDC, Mellowmuse ATA, at $49, seems a small price to pay, if you factor its use over the lifetime of your working with PT. It even claims to improve upon some PDC schemes by actually pinging and not relying on the plug-ins' "reported" latency. Here's their spiel on that:

Auto Time Adjuster (ATA) is an RTAS plug-in for Pro Tools LE/M-Powered, designed to aid workflow when using plug-ins that generate significant latency. Currently to compensate for plugin latency you have to either move individual audio tracks backwards/forwards, or use the included Time Adjuster plugin to fix the delay of each track in turn. One plug-in change can mean a lot of tweaks are necessary each time in a large project. Auto Time Adjuster uses audio pinging to automatically calculate and compensate for insert latency on your audio and aux tracks with the click of a button. When you add or remove a plugin on a track all you need to do is click the ping button on the master ATA to calculate all current latency and synchronise your tracks, even when using hardware inserts.

As ATA measures the actual latency of each track in your mix it provides the tightest timing possible, native ADC relies on values reported by the plugins themselves, and they don't always report the actual delay they are adding to your tracks

. Recently added features include: "P" key command for pinging, manual latency value entry and individual locking of ATAs.

 

And here's the link to their site, which has some cool videos.

http://www.mellowmuse.com/ATA.html

 

I know it's annoying on Avid's part to steadfastly omit PDC, but with such a simple fix, why not just bit the $49 bullet? PTLE has a great interface (especially if you like the classic mixer metaphor), and vsn. 8 has significantly improved MIDI functionality and a very complete complement of VI's and effects.

[MikeRivers]

Pardon my bump ( ), but still seeking an answer as to how ATA works re "static vs. dynamic."

If by "dynamic" you mean that every time you add a plug-in, it makes an adjustment, I think that would probably be a desirable feature. The MellowMuse, as I understand it, is unaware of what you've added to a channel chain, so you need to tell it to adjust when it becomes necessary.

 

What I'm curious about is what the so-called "automatic" delay compensation does when you remove a plug-in. Does it re-adjust? And how does it do that? If your tracks start at Time 0, it can't place a track that's delayed before 0 to compensate, so the way they work (at least this is how the Mackie d8b worked) it delays all the other channels. I can envision a project that's been worked on for a couple of years with all the tracks starting a second or two past zero.

 

This is the kind of job that computers do really well. Unfortunately, I suspect that many of the people who design the software don't really understand what needs to be done, so they get it so that it can be demonstrated by adding a plug-in, but you don't find out what happens when you remove the plug-in until you buy the program.

 

Me cynical? Who, me?

[vintagevibes]

 

Yeah, I learned that the hard way several years back when I was doing a seminar where I only had a PTLE setup, and was unaware of the path delay compensation issue. "Okay class, now let's check out parallel compression with drums, and how it can really make your drum sound so much better!" Ooops.

 

 

 

When you refer to "parallel compression on drums" are you referring to the "NY drum compression trick" where you send one signal out of a send and slam it really heard but keep the main signal compression free to preserve dynamics?