Intonation: insufficient saddle travel TOWARDS the nut, ie screw too short

[tom_s252]

As subject. Godin SD, 24.75" scale, Strat-style bridge set flat against the body with five springs.

 

I cannot get the D-string to intonate correctly, it is consistently flat at the 12th fret and I cannot shorten the vibrating length of the string any further before the saddle comes off the screw. It's set up with Rotosound Blues 10-52s - could they be too heavy for it at this scale length?

 

I'm puzzled...

[mutant_guitar]

perhaps just go to the hardware store and pick up a longer screw?

[tom_s252]

 

perhaps just go to the hardware store and pick up a longer screw?

 

 

If it's that simple and this isn't indicative of some deeper problem, I may do just that!

[Ancient Mariner]

Try a different string first - sometimes strings are faulty and have unusual intonation properties.

[Filter500]

It's most likely a different problem. Replace the string as mentioned, and then if it still happens, check your neck bow and general setup.

[ashasha]

Yeah, swap the string first I've had this problem with a G string before. I've seen the opposite problem from nut slots being too shallow and making the action too high, but this is a weird one. You could try raising the action of that one string a bit to try to compensate for the lack of pull, but if you aren't fretting out right now than you should have plenty of travel.

[ducky_x]

 

Try a different string first - sometimes strings are faulty and have unusual intonation properties.

 

 

+1

[maltomario]

as an aside, i've always wondered how a defective string could affect intonation. I see this mentioned somewhat often when topics like this come up.. I've changed lots of strings in my life and never had a new string exhibit *intonation* problems right out of the bag. perhaps i've just been lucky but statistically I should have had quite a few bad strings by now if this is true. neglecting seasonal changes in wood/humidity, I've always thought that unless the scale length changes or you go up/down a gauge (which essentially is a small scale length change) you can change identical strings willy nilly and never need to adjust for intonation. When I was gigging actively, I'd swap strings multiple times per month and never had to touch intonation on my floyd-equipped stage guitars (but did check it with each string change).

 

the only way I can think of it occurring is if the thickness of the string itself is not uniform across the portion that makes contact at the nut and bridge. but even if that was the case (and it would be visibly obvious by inspection/feeling string), one would think that proper intonation can still be set once tuned up, saddle tweaks and equilibrium state is set.

 

can some of the veteran builders/techs here chime in on this issue?

[tom_s252]

It's not a string problem, the problem existed before I changed strings on Friday.

 

Ancient Mariner - it's all your fault I bought the SD in the first place! Wonderful guitar, when it's in tune...

 

What should I be looking for? I don't think there's excessive neck bow.

[mrbrown49]

Perhaps the pickups are too close to the strings? That can cause odd intonation issues.

[Pope on a Rope]

Are you checking and setting intonation while the guitar is in playing position?

[Belva]

Push down on your #6 string at #1 and #15 frets at the same time. You should have some relief or bow at the #9 fret. There should be a gap of around .010". This is just a ballpark figure. Different radii require different relief. There's a nice tutorial on neck relief at the Fender website. Once you're happy with that, recheck intonation. Many here can talk you through this. Get a capo and a set of automotive feeler gauges. Put the capo at the #1 fret so one hand is free to check relief with your other hand holding the string @ #15. Once you've done it a bazillion times you'll get a better feel for it. Also, each neck is different. That's why I use the Fender guideline for setting neck relief and then play the git. The guitar will tell you what it wants.

[DaleH]

When you float the trem does it bring the saddle closer to the nut.

[ashasha]

 

as an aside, i've always wondered how a defective string could affect intonation. I see this mentioned somewhat often when topics like this come up.. I've changed lots of strings in my life and never had a new string exhibit *intonation* problems right out of the bag. perhaps i've just been lucky but statistically I should have had quite a few bad strings by now if this is true. neglecting seasonal changes in wood/humidity, I've always thought that unless the scale length changes or you go up/down a gauge (which essentially is a small scale length change) you can change identical strings willy nilly and never need to adjust for intonation. When I was gigging actively, I'd swap strings multiple times per month and never had to touch intonation on my floyd-equipped stage guitars (but did check it with each string change). the only way I can think of it occurring is if the thickness of the string itself is not uniform across the portion that makes contact at the nut and bridge. but even if that was the case (and it would be visibly obvious by inspection/feeling string), one would think that proper intonation can still be set once tuned up, saddle tweaks and equilibrium state is set. can some of the veteran builders/techs here chime in on this issue?

You know I don't have more experience than you, but I have in fact encountered a string that caused intonation problems ONCE in my life. It was the G string (isn't it frickin' always the G string?) but I can't remember which guitar it was on. It would actually intonate fine, but some of the notes would be fine and then there was like one spot in the neck where it wasn't just a little out of tune like a guitar usually is, it was wtf off. Someone recommended changing the string, I told them they were insane, I did it anyway and it came right in.

 

To this day I have no idea why or how it happened.

[maltomario]

 

You know I don't have more experience than you, but I have in fact encountered a string that caused intonation problems ONCE in my life. It was the G string (isn't it frickin' always the G string?) but I can't remember which guitar it was on. It would actually intonate fine, but some of the notes would be fine and then there was like one spot in the neck where it wasn't just a little out of tune like a guitar usually is, it was wtf off. Someone recommended changing the string, I told them they were insane, I did it anyway and it came right in. To this day I have no idea why or how it happened.

 

 

 

hmm. i wonder if its due to wound strings in general? like maybe the thin gauge overwrap was the problem? i'll have to think about this some more.

 

maybe i'll ask my master's thesis advisor to switch my topic from boring engineering stuff and do some "research" on this topic. =)

[McCain]

Try intonating using the 3rd/15th instead of open/12th. If still testing flat try a new string.

 

If the 3rd/15th work for you then do the same with the others. You'll have a better detonated guitar up and down and from string to string across the board.

[vivid2012]

 

Try intonating using the 3rd/15th instead of open/12th. If still testing flat try a new string. If the 3rd/15th work for you then do the same with the others. You'll have a better detonated guitar up and down and from string to string across the board.

 

 

sounds a good way to go.

[BoneNut]

 

as an aside, i've always wondered how a defective string could affect intonation. I see this mentioned somewhat often when topics like this come up.. I've changed lots of strings in my life and never had a new string exhibit *intonation* problems right out of the bag. perhaps i've just been lucky but statistically I should have had quite a few bad strings by now if this is true. neglecting seasonal changes in wood/humidity, I've always thought that unless the scale length changes or you go up/down a gauge (which essentially is a small scale length change) you can change identical strings willy nilly and never need to adjust for intonation. When I was gigging actively, I'd swap strings multiple times per month and never had to touch intonation on my floyd-equipped stage guitars (but did check it with each string change). the only way I can think of it occurring is if the thickness of the string itself is not uniform across the portion that makes contact at the nut and bridge. but even if that was the case (and it would be visibly obvious by inspection/feeling string), one would think that proper intonation can still be set once tuned up, saddle tweaks and equilibrium state is set. can some of the veteran builders/techs here chime in on this issue?

 

 

I didn't believe it either. Happened to me once and someone here suggest replacing the string.

It worked.

[Still.ill]

flip the saddle

[Brewski]

change the strings.

 

Next - replace the screw.

[mutant_guitar]

the only time I've seen a string cause intonation problems was on my college roommate's guitar who never changed a string in the 2 years he had it. The high E was rusted so badly that it really threw the intonation off. A new set of strings cleared it right up.

[McCain]

Did you find a solution?

[unworthy]

 

flip the saddle

 

 

It has a Strat-style bridge.

[unworthy]

 

You know I don't have more experience than you, but I have in fact encountered a string that caused intonation problems ONCE in my life. It was the G string (isn't it frickin' always the G string?) but I can't remember which guitar it was on. It would actually intonate fine, but some of the notes would be fine and then there was like one spot in the neck where it wasn't just a little out of tune like a guitar usually is, it was wtf off. Someone recommended changing the string, I told them they were insane, I did it anyway and it came right in. To this day I have no idea why or how it happened.

 

 

Exact same thing happened to me a few years back with a set of DR Pure Blues, actually it was two sets in a row. Had to be some sort of manufacturing defect.

 

D

[WRGKMC]

as an aside' date=' i've always wondered how a defective string could affect intonation. I see this mentioned somewhat often when topics like this come up.. I've changed lots of strings in my life and never had a new string exhibit *intonation* problems right out of the bag. QUOTE']

 

Its all dealing with the core wire size diameter. If the core wire is too thin it will never have enough lbs pull to come to pitch when fretted. Strings should bend slightly sharp if they are properly balanced.

 

I had issues with several manufacturers where they play a dirty game of swapping say a wrapped third for a wrapped 4th to make up sets and fill orders. The outside diameter is OK but theres no way in hell the string will ever achieve the tension to intonate properly. I had this happen on my regular brand of strings I bought a few weeks ago. There was a D string in a different wrapper and dam if they didnt play the old switch-a-roo. Pissed be off to no ends when thay pull that crap, so I bought my regular monthly supply of 10 sets from someone else.

 

The best way in the OP case to be sure its a string issue is definately change brands. Roto Sound guitar strings sucked balls last time I tried them. Even their bass strings that used to be the best have gone down the tubes. they are probibly using inferior metal. Try boomers, D'Aquisto, D'Addario, Safarzo, labella, Some Dean Markley or SIT strings. I find all of those to have good core wire gauging for intonation. The poorest I found were DR, Fender, and Black Diamond. The rest are all pot luck.

 

The other item you need to do is measure with a good ruler from nut to 12th fret center and doubble that length to your saddle. The high E string should be at or longer than scale length. The others should all be slightly longer than scale length. the low E string winds up being 1/8 to 1/4" longer than scale length depending on string height and gauge.

 

If you're having intonation issues with a flat string, measure the scale length to the center of the saddel. If you're at or shorther than scale length, Your string height and relief are correct and you dont have any worn frets then the only answer is bad strings from the manufacturer.

 

Of course if your neck is back bowed or the height is too low you can have major issues there that need to be addressed too. If you use a chromatic tuner, test the last fret instead of the 12th fret for intonation. If the last frets intonates, and the 12th fret is flat then you only have two possibilities, the neck isnt straight or you got bad strings. You should ge able to get nearly every fret to read right on a neck with a good setup. you may get one or two that are a tad flat or sharp but you should be able to lean on the string and neck a littel to bring those in.