Intonation: insufficient saddle travel TOWARDS the nut, ie screw too short

[WRGKMC]

 

Exact same thing happened to me a few years back with a set of DR Pure Blues, actually it was two sets in a row. Had to be some sort of manufacturing defect. D

 

 

There you go. Thats the same issue I found with their strings and exactly why I dont recomend them. The core wires are too thing and they wont intonate. The only way I could get them close was to adjust my strings way up in hight over specs. Felt like crap playing. I suppose DR thinks Blues players have garbage guitars that have gaping relief, worn frets and high strings for playing slide or something, cause thats the only way I could get them to intonate, especially with the D and A strings. Someone should tell them they could improve business with sone thicker core wires and not post bs about compressed winding crap. The winding has nothing to do with weather a string will intonate properly, its all about having even lbs pull per string.

[McCain]

Unless you have a perfectly compensated nut you should never use it when setting intonation. Why would you? Think about it.

 

The least you want to use is the 1st and 13th fret...and using 3rd/15th is even more precise.

 

Don't take my word for it_Prove it for yourself.

As they say..The proof is in the pudding.

[unworthy]

 

There you go. Thats the same issue I found with their strings and exactly why I dont recomend them. The core wires are too thing and they wont intonate.

 

 

Just to clarify, this happened only once, several years ago, in two sets I bought at the same time. My only bad experience with DR, ever.

 

D

[BoneNut]

 

Exact same thing happened to me a few years back with a set of DR Pure Blues, actually it was two sets in a row. Had to be some sort of manufacturing defect. D

 

 

Mine was from a DR Blues set too.

[goosefartfan]

 

Unless you have a perfectly compensated nut you should never use it when setting intonation. Why would you? Think about it. The least you want to use is the 1st and 13th fret...and using 3rd/15th is even more precise. Don't take my word for it_Prove it for yourself. As they say..The proof is in the pudding.

 

 

I will try it, but, as they say "inquiring minds want to know (why)"!

[McCain]

I will try it, but, as they say "inquiring minds want to know (why)"!

 

I found this out when deciding to make my own compensated nut.

 

First thing you have to do is intonate the guitar before you can do the nut. How do you do that?

 

Well you don't use the nut but instead rely on the frets. But which frets to use? 1st/13th?

 

I figured that open chords use the 2nd/3rd frets the most and that when fretting a string the first and second fret are usually sharp and by the third fret the sharpness is gone or greatly lessened so I decided on using the 3rd/15th. Turned out to be a good choice.

 

Once I intonated using 3rd/15th and noticed the result I realized how crazy relying on the nut for a reference point was.

 

Like everyone else I did the open/12th without thought or question because that's what all the books said.

 

I used a capo right on top of the 3rd fret...just a hair back of the crown to eliminate any buzz.

 

I didn't try other combos like 1/13 or 5/17 for instance but you might want to experiment.

 

So that's how i stumbled onto bypassing the nut for better intonation.

[WRGKMC]

 

Unless you have a perfectly compensated nut you should never use it when setting intonation. Why would you? Think about it. The least you want to use is the 1st and 13th fret...and using 3rd/15th is even more precise. Don't take my word for it_Prove it for yourself. As they say..The proof is in the pudding.

 

 

If you use a capo to intonate then remove the capo you're going to still have issues with your open strings because that tension is gone and the open to octave is going to be off. unless you play with a capo regularly it can sound awful depending on the string height at the nut. you can even try a capo with a zero fret thats the same height as all other frets and you still have issues setting intonation with or without.

 

There are always notes on a neck that will be slightly flat and sharp because guitars use tempered tuning, which means all notes will be slightly out to give you relative closeness overall. Even with a compensated nut there is no perfect intonation on a guitar because the frets themselves are not compensated for each string.

 

Here is an article that states the facts so theres no inventing the wheel here and no magic tricks others havent tried before. Its all based on math and physics. http://www.doolinguitars.com/intonation/intonation4.html

 

The only guitar manufacturer of a guitar who has found an answer to the problem is here. http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php

 

That guitar would have spot on intonation but it wouldnt do me any good with the way i bend notes. it also wouldnt do me any good to play in a band with other guitars that have tempered tuning. I may be in tune but they would never be in tune with me so there would always be dissonance occuring. It doesnt metter where that dissonance comes from, the band will sound like crap with it. I tried the compensated nuts for a few years too. Same problem when playing with others. i may have had perfect intonation but it sounded like dog meat if you coldnt tune bothe guitars the same. its better to have both guitars equally sharp on a nots then to have one sharp and one at perfect pitch.

 

The only good way to intonate to use a combination of a high quality tuner and string harmonics vs fretted notes setup under normal playing conditions, preferibly standing. This allows you to depress strings as you would normally not with the oressure of a capo spring that may over bend a string down to the fretboard. Then you rotate the adjustmenst of Height Relief, intonation, several times till theres no more adjustments nessasary. I often start with tuning the open string to pitch and then check the very last fret witb a tuner to see how flat or sharp it is. In most cases, my last fret will be a few cents sharp and my 12th fret will be dead on. If the 12th fret is flat in comparison to the last fret I may need a littel more relief. But you cant over adjust too much relief in because it will make the lower frets sharp and it also raises the action. Each adjustment has an impact on the other two. So this is why I say you need to rotate the three adjustments to get whats good for your own playing style.

 

Its always easier for me when I have it plugged into a good amp sairly loud too. You can have a guitar intonated, for a soft touch, then slam a chord and all the strings twang sharp before they settle back into tune. The trick is give and take where you use your ears as much as the tuner to get a guitar to stand up and sing. If you have real good ears the strings will be on the edge of twanging sharp with a good hard strum and remaining at pitch.

 

If anything I think these electronic tuners are over used and are actually a curse to string platers who never develop and ear for proper pitch. i played the fiddel before the guitar so Its something I developed early on and still use today. If anything is more of a curse than a benifit because frets keep you from making corrections to pitch inperfections.

[McCain]

If you use a capo to intonate then remove the capo you're going to still have issues with your open strings because that tension is gone and the open to octave is going to be off. unless you play with a capo regularly it can sound awful depending on the string height at the nut. you can even try a capo with a zero fret thats the same height as all other frets and you still have issues setting intonation with or without.

 

I'm not saying everything is perfect. Just saying it's so much of an overall improvement that I'll never go back to using the nut.

[McCain]

Well it looks like i made a mistake in using the 3rd/15th without trying others. Turns out after trying 1st/13th it's way better with a vast improvement to open chords. Now 70-90/100% of the notes that make up a chord are in tune instead of out of tune like when using open/12th.

 

I figured that using the 1st fret would be too much of a difference between the open strings and the fretted ones especially between the open and first fret and that's why I reasoned in my head, wrongly, that the 3rd was the way to go.

 

Open chords sound amazing now and will now be re-intonating all other guitars using 1/13.

 

NUT..you are the weakest link...

 

It's free.

[paulojcduarte]

had the same problem with a floyd, couldn't intonate the A, problem went away when I refretted.

[scott944]

I had a similar issue with a Squire Tele a while back. After fighting with it for quite a while, I discovered that the genius original owner had installed an aftermarket bridge - badly. Too much distance between the bridge and neck. The only way to make it intonate properly on 2 of the strings was to replace the adjusting screws with longer ones (short of removing and reinstalling the bridge assembly - too much work for a $100 POS). BTW, Lowes didn't stock a screw that worked - but the hobby shop a couple of doors down, which specializes in RC stuff, did. Ultimately took it back where I bought it and picked up something else.

[guitarcapo]

 

I cannot get the D-string to intonate correctly, it is consistently flat at the 12th fret and I cannot shorten the vibrating length of the string any further before the saddle comes off the screw. It's set up with Rotosound Blues 10-52s - could they be too heavy for it at this scale length?

 

 

 

 

Actually, a HEAVIER guage string will fix the problem described. Not a lighter one. Notice that with heavier guage strings, the compensation is LONGER. (the low thickest E string is further back than the other strings away from the nut etc....)

[nomadh]

Heres a thread resurrection. I saw the 1st/13th tag line and found this. I wanted to add I had a horrible problem wit ha parts tele and no intonation work would help. In desperation I held the neck up against another tele and noticed that the nut might be just a bit farther from the 1st fret than the other. So I capoed it at the 1st and intonated using the 13th. IT all came together and played great. Till I took the capo off. Using the 1/13 certainly helped me diagnose my problem but I had to have a zero fret installed in front of my nut to fix the problem. I dont see why intonating at the 1/13 would be any more accurate on a well built guitar but if you suspect a wonky nut it will help you prove the issue but it seems to me you should still fix whatever was wrong at the nut or just only play it with a capo. That said I may just start doing this as routine on my cheaper guitars. It might help decrease a small problem or at least alert me to a problem.

[McCain]

 

Heres a thread resurrection. I saw the 1st/13th tag line and found this. I wanted to add I had a horrible problem wit ha parts tele and no intonation work would help. In desperation I held the neck up against another tele and noticed that the nut might be just a bit farther from the 1st fret than the other. So I capoed it at the 1st and intonated using the 13th. IT all came together and played great. Till I took the capo off. Using the 1/13 certainly helped me diagnose my problem but I had to have a zero fret installed in front of my nut to fix the problem. I dont see why intonating at the 1/13 would be any more accurate on a well built guitar but if you suspect a wonky nut it will help you prove the issue but it seems to me you should still fix whatever was wrong at the nut or just only play it with a capo. That said I may just start doing this as routine on my cheaper guitars. It might help decrease a small problem or at least alert me to a problem.

 

 

Just wanted to say you have to be careful with the capo placement. you want it practically on top of the fret..just back of the crown so theres no string buzz.

 

You don't want to like place it in the middle between the nut and fret and clamp the strings down to the fretboard.

 

But then again the nut has to be where it should be.

[smorgdonkey]

Good that you have a solution that works for you. When I set intonation I typically check up and down the 1st to the 7th frets to see if the notes are consistent. I do that because that is the area that I use the most and I don't use a capo, I use my fingers so that practically speaking, the intonation is 'true' in real playing terms. If the intonation is 'in' using open and 12th and in between is good then fine but any issues and I 'tweak' for practicality.

[McCain]

If using only 1-7 it might be best to intonate using 1st/5th...1st/7th or 1st/9th so the frets used most will be the most precise.

[smorgdonkey]

Yes, well I try to strike a balance between practical and the entire instrument. If there was anything that was way off then I wouldn't be too happy with the particular guitar but sometimes certain guitars will have certain notes that tuners don't pick up well or that the note being sounded gets a 'sympathetic' note ringing which the tuner more easily picks up.

 

So my system is quite effective when dealing with that sort of circumstance and often people will just fixate on the fact that the particular note that they are looking for is not sounding. I just move along to another note and a series of notes to see how things are as a whole and go from there with the ultimate goal of the entire neck being as 'in' as it can be but with the focus on a particular area if it is too much of a compromise.

 

If I am just trying to set the intonation generally I will get the open string and if the 12th doesn't pick up well I'll just go for another note because if that one is in then the 12th should be close too so doing some other notes above and below the 12th will or should get me where I want to be if the 12th isn't co-operating!

[Frets99]

That's what she said...

[Krank'N]

Sometimes guitars with bolt on necks can be hard to intonate. The angle of the neck may need to be shimmed properly or the neck cavity shaved a bit. Aftermarket parts can easily cause this( or sloppy factory work). Look to see if the saddles are real hi or low in order to get a good action. If so then measure the actual distance from the 12th to saddle.