Members mnewb1 Posted January 16, 2012 Members Share Posted January 16, 2012 Dream Theater [video=youtube;gkcAqknKBO4] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Darkstorm Posted January 16, 2012 Members Share Posted January 16, 2012 LMAO. Well maybe Jon Lord and Deep purple could teach you a few things about using keybaord regular in most songs for rock music and getting the organ to work well with the band in the mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Spike Li Posted January 16, 2012 Members Share Posted January 16, 2012 When I recently saw the Foo Fighters and Dave was introducing the band, when it came to the keyboard player he said- "this is ______ (I cant remember his name, hes just a keys player after all ). He's studied music all his life, wento music college and everything, knows everything there is to know and now he just sits up there, plays on like 2 songs with us and then just smokes weed and drinks the rest of the time- which actually makes him the smartest member of the band." Seems like a pretty good reason to me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MrChitlins Posted January 16, 2012 Members Share Posted January 16, 2012 This thread is built of fail & stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DaveAronow Posted January 16, 2012 Members Share Posted January 16, 2012 Little band called QUEEN. Ever hear of them? What about Trans Siberian Orchestra? Savatage? This list can go on forever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Doctor Morbius Posted January 16, 2012 Members Share Posted January 16, 2012 This thread is built of fail & stupid.And that's why it'll stand the test of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members photon9 Posted January 16, 2012 Members Share Posted January 16, 2012 This thread is built of fail & stupid. It is built on fail and stupid since the premise is fail and stupid, but some people have chimed in with some very useful comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MrChitlins Posted January 16, 2012 Members Share Posted January 16, 2012 It is built on fail and stupid since the premise is fail and stupid, but some people have chimed in with some very useful comments. Absolutely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MrChitlins Posted January 16, 2012 Members Share Posted January 16, 2012 [video=youtube;U-7QSMyz5rg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-7QSMyz5rg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members honeyiscool Posted January 16, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 16, 2012 You guys haven't actually tried to understand me at all, though. I read the thread back and I see I've made some points that may be hard to understand, but I have no bias against keyboards. So let me ask you, how many of you have actually been the keyboardist in a rock band? Do you know how frustrating it is to actually be that guy? You can play enough notes to be three members of a band yet you rarely get the space or volume of even one lousy guitarist with his 15 watt band. I'm starting to see that maybe I generalized too much but I admitted in the original post that synths, pads, leads, these things work. And I quickly acknowledged that organs work as well. So great, you've made that point. Don't keep bringing up Deep Purple. I mainly was talking about piano sounds. I also said that in a large concert hall with great sound people, pianos can mix well, so don't bring up Elton John. And wow, Journey plays some power ballads with piano in them... that's obviously possible. That's what pianos in rock music do best, sensitive ballads. Now that we are talking about the same thing, let's talk piano in the setting I think is relevant. In your average small gig at a club, in combination with distorted guitars and drummer playing loud, piano (obviously digital piano) sounds like {censored}. It really does. When you get it to sound un{censored}, it no longer sounds. You need 1000+ watts and two full-range speakers to get that thing to sound clean and powerful, and you probably need some serious EQing as well. And for what? Yeah, bands like Radiohead and Coldplay play with pianos, but ever notice how much they're backing off when the pianos come in? Then they go back to their distortions and no more piano. It's pretty much like a pianist in a rock band better be a multi-instrumentalist or be frivolous for much of the night, and that's something I quickly realized. I could either hate how I sounded every night, or I could learn to play guitar so that I could play that 90% of the time and then play piano for the couple quiet songs a night. Maybe this difficulty is why the instrument has seen so little innovation in the last 30+ years? About the only modern band that I can think of that has used a piano sound in a fresh new direction is The Walkmen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members peskypesky Posted January 16, 2012 Members Share Posted January 16, 2012 Stupid thread is stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jonny guitar Posted January 16, 2012 Members Share Posted January 16, 2012 Maybe this difficulty is why the instrument has seen so little innovation in the last 30+ years? . The innovation involved in the Roland V Piano far exceeds 30 years combined innovations of guitar, bass and drums. http://www.roland.com/V-Piano/grand/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sammyreynolds01 Posted January 16, 2012 Members Share Posted January 16, 2012 It's about mix and also it's about guitars players understanding that they don't always have to play with the volume on their guitars at 10. I agree that it's hard for a regular piano to cut through. There's also a difference between a professional sound engineer and a amateur. Professionals know what they are doing. If Mr. Guitar is playing to loud and won't turn it down so the key guy can be heard. The engineer will gladly do it for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members honeyiscool Posted January 16, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 16, 2012 I am talking about the innovation of the instrument as used in music. The actual instrument has progressed tremendously. (although a decent upright is still more fun to play than a top-of-the-line digital piano for about the same money) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members headfilter Posted January 16, 2012 Members Share Posted January 16, 2012 I am talking about the innovation of the instrument as used in music. The actual instrument has progressed tremendously. (although a decent upright is still more fun to play than a top-of-the-line digital piano for about the same money) I think I may have lost your original point, but I'm gonna chime back in anyway. In my vast bar-band experience(God, I'm getting old.) I've found that keyboard players are very similar to guitar players when it comes to "their" sound. It always sound perfect at home, then I go play with the band and it sounds terrible. I immediately have to start tweaking back bass and mids and cutting back on gain because the bass amp is eating it all anyway leaving me with nothing. Piano is the same way. A perfect piano patch from a keyboard (at least to my ringing ears) has a lot of depth and sounds mind-blowing in my studio, but just gets lost in the mix when playing with a band live. I've never used an actual piano in bar, but I'm sure drums and bass would swallow it whole. We've always made it work with the keyboard and piano patches, but it's never had that big, sexy acoustic piano sound, but we've gotten some really great sounds as a band. Personally, I really like playing with keyboard players. Maybe you've just been playing with the wrong guitar players. Anyway, I'm sure none of what I said helped. Enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Surrealistic Posted January 16, 2012 Members Share Posted January 16, 2012 As someone who once played clarinet in an orchestra, can I just point out that in the louder sections there's no way anyone in the audience would be able to clearly pick out the stuff I was playing - but that could be said of most of the other instruments too and it doesn't mean the orchestra would've sounded better without me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DaleH Posted January 16, 2012 Members Share Posted January 16, 2012 [video=youtube;Z-9iNVoeghI] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members golias Posted January 16, 2012 Members Share Posted January 16, 2012 I had a bunch of counterpoints to make about learning how to properly play in an ensemble context vs. alone, about the jazz and jump-swing approaches to the instrument, about the artists who are doing all kinds of new and interesting things... But there's no need for me to say much of anything. The 2009 album, "Who Killed Amanda Palmer?" says pretty much everything that needs to be said for me. If you spin that album and don't get it, you won't ever get it. Here's a sample. [video=youtube;pJVWSu5Nfi8] [video=youtube;1O6GqCwjh-k] [video=youtube;8C17yfGyJjM] [video=youtube;jlJ9z_LowBI] Thread over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Ratae Corieltauvorum Posted January 16, 2012 Moderators Share Posted January 16, 2012 i really don't know where to start with this thread Walking away is indicated;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stratmaster Posted January 16, 2012 Members Share Posted January 16, 2012 I think its more about the musicians that are working together more then what the instrument lineup is. As far as loud rock bands are conserned in a loud setting it has to do with music space. What a keys player has the ability to do vs how he should utilize his instrument. When playing with a keys player I love to back it down and back off alot. Keys players have a much larger range then we do but alot of his range is wiped out because a bass player will eat up the lows and guitar players eat up alot of the mids/highs. That being said if you play with a a keys player as a guitar player you have to back off and share the space. Let the keys hold the rhytum and play some fills then trade off. I've seen serveral bar bands pull it off great. As far as what they have to carry around to make thier sound happen that is up to them. An effective keys player can make a yamaha PSR keyboard work wonders where some players need thier full 3 tier setup with them or they dont feel it. Same goes with guitar players and amps you could carry a full marshall stack or something like a pro junior or even a modeller. You carry what you need to get your sound. Is it worth it? that is in the eye of the beholder. As far as being heard IEMs are your friend. If its cutting thru the mix then that is the sound mans job along with working with bandmates knowing how to set the sound stage. my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Arr0wHead Posted January 16, 2012 Members Share Posted January 16, 2012 Almost every band I've seen in the last 2 years has had keys. And it's worked every time. Mars Volta, Between the Buried and Me, Pagan's Mind, Pain of Salvation, Stratovarius, Modest Mouse, Devin Townsend, soooo many more. OP has created a "you're doing it wrong" thread, but in actuality he needed to make a "what am I doing wrong" thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members csm Posted January 16, 2012 Members Share Posted January 16, 2012 From my (now-long-distant) youth ... piano was crucial in '50s rock (Jerry Lee Lewis, Fats Domino, Little Richard). In soul music you had Brother Ray, Sister 'Retha, Booker T n what-all; in jazz everybody from Monk to organ trio guys like Jimmy Smith ... In the 60s, there were soul/jazz influenced bands (Animals, Manfred Mann, Small Faces, Georgie Fame, Graham Bond) where the organ (Vox Continental, usually, if not a real Hammond) guy had equal status with the guitarist. Then there were The Doors and Floyd in the psych era, and a generation of bands influenced by gospel (where organ and piano were featured together) which included The Band, Procol Harum and Mott The Hoople ... even in the punk era, keys were prominent in Costello's Attractions, Dury's Blockheads, XTC, Stranglers, Boomtown Rats and more ... Funny how, back in the day, when PAs were primitive and contemporary digital technology hadn't even been thought of, all these guys made it work with keys in venues from tiny bars to big halls ... What did they know back then that we nowadays don't? EDIT: And that's even without mentioning Elton or D.Purple ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Ratae Corieltauvorum Posted January 16, 2012 Moderators Share Posted January 16, 2012 Go ahead and laugh at Elton. OK, I'll be back next week:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BryanMichael Posted January 16, 2012 Members Share Posted January 16, 2012 Saw Elvis Costello live opening for the Police a couple of years back. His keyboard/organist was where it was at on stage, besides Elvis himself of course... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Phillbis Posted January 16, 2012 Members Share Posted January 16, 2012 (Or why do keyboardists bother joining rock bands?)I know this might be a {censored}storm but I really do feel this way.Now, there are different types of keyboard playing, and when it's just a few leads here and there or a pad now and then, it usually sounds fine. But that's rarely a full time job, is it? And it doesn't require much training to do, someone can do it on top of other duties.Basically, every time, I've seen a loud rock band live with keyboards and it's playing piano or organ along with distorted guitar, I can't hear the keyboards. And when you can, it's usually harsh and shrill and terrible sounding and it screws up the entire mix. Yes, I don't go to too many large shows with professional soundmen making everything sound nice, and when I've been to those, generally the keyboards blend a lot better. I mean, guitars in general are way too loud at most shows and tend to overpower drums and bass and vocals, but especially keyboards, because I think a lot of things happen at the same frequencies.This is one of the many reasons why I hated playing keyboards with rock bands. No matter how loud I played, I couldn't hear myself. If I stopped playing, of course, there was a decrease in volume, but that's about it. What's the point of carrying around a large and complex instrument just to provide a bit of girth when a second guitarist can do a lot of the same things? You could do a four octave arpeggio and you or the audience would barely know anything happened. And sure, I could play synths instead of Rhodes and have a chance at making a difference, but I don't like doing that because that's like asking a blues guy to try playing some U2, it's weird when you go from "which notes do I play" to "which knobs do I turn" and it's not even the same instrument. Plus, synths can get awfully annoying.Now, I think it's possible to have piano sound good with guitars (with less gain, it works fine), but I just don't think it normally happens and I honestly think that the average rock band I see at a bar gig or whatever, if they fired the keyboard player, nobody would even know or care that he was gone. I've seen The Hold Steady a few times and I could hear the keyboards just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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