Best non-modeling solid state amp of all time?

[Rick 381]

Originally Posted by twofoolsaminute

So, realistically, a really great sounding amp could be constructed using a tube pre-amp and a solid state power amp?

Yes. It's called the Vox Valvetronix

[Spike Li]

 

Originally Posted by Rick 381

Yes. It's called the Vox Valvetronix

 

Im pretty sure this is how my Bassman TV combo works too- which I freakin love btw

[honeyiscool]

Funny, I never liked the Valvetronix.

Would sound better with brown grill cloth.

[honeyiscool]

Originally Posted by cratz2

The read that honey linked to from Hartley Peavey is an interesting read. I read it quite a while back. I know that even in that capacity, he's trying to sell his amp rather than writing an unbiased discourse, but the fact is the primary theme is he's trying to make a solid state amp sound like a tube amp. That's pretty much your answer right there. I'm not a SS or a modeler hater, but almost without exception, they are trying to sound and feel like tube amps because that's what most players want when it gets down to the actual tone. Problem is, very often folks will go for the wrong tube amp, find it doesn't suit their needs and proclaim that 'tube amps suck' etc... That's not directed anyone that's posted in this thread. Just observation and experience.

The sound Peavey goes for in their SS amps, IMO, it's not that they're trying to imitate a tube amp as much as they're trying to get some of the response of early tube amps. As far as the clean channel goes, they're a lot more Bassman than a Twin, which I think would be the right choice for most.

Ultimately, I don't think Peavey SS amps sound like tube amps. They certainly don't sound like Peavey tube amps. The TransTube amps do some "tube-like" qualities, but to me, "tube-like" is a term guitarists throw around to mean "responsive," "does not suck," "has dynamics," "sensible breakup," etc. A lot of people just consider tube vs. SS tone to be purely a matter of quality. Get an amp that responds well and sounds good, nobody cares if it's tube-like or not. Nobody listens to a Queen solo and thinks that it'd be better if the dude was using a tube amp.

Peavey makes great amps of many designs (SS, digital, tube), and at many different budget levels. I've always wondered why they don't get more love. To me the Classic/Delta Blues kills the Hot Rod/Blues Jr/Deluxe style amps, certainly the 5150 is as good a metal amp as has ever been made, and the Bandit is one of the more versatile and reliable budget amps out there. In fact, I think of all the various tube amps I've ever come across, the Delta Blues 210 is the most perfect for me. It just has solid good sound and has trem and reverb built-in, has an effects loop, wonderful cabinet, the new ones even have a built-in tube guard so no tube rattle either, sounds great with electric piano, etc. It even looks good. Solid price, too. If I had one again, I'd probably add a master volume knob just so it doesn't hum so much, but that's all it really needs for me.

[PrawnHeed]

 

Originally Posted by Rick 381

Yes. It's called the Vox Valvetronix

 

That's not what the valvetronix is at all.

[twofoolsaminute]

 

Originally Posted by PrawnHeed

That's not what the valvetronix is at all.

 

Agreed. I have a valvetronix and it's sort of a different animal kind of hybrid. Not just a tube preamp.

[twofoolsaminute]

Originally Posted by cratz2

I really disagree with your first sentence. Perhaps in theory, but I've never heard one yet.

Hopefully wyatt will come back but in my experience, it depends. If you want high gain tones, whether from a pedal or from a tube or solid state preamp, I don't think the power section matters too much as long as you aren't radically exceeding what a solid state power section can do. Power tubes, esp EL34s it seems (though it could just be the related circuit) like to be pushed so that they aren't sparking clean. That's why you have guys trying to crank their 100W Marshalls. Part of it is probably the speakers being pushed to a certain point, but when you want 'that' sound, it's hard to beat power tubes being pushed a little bit.

Volume capability aside, why do so many people prefer Deluxe Reverbs to Twins for those 'kinda breaking up' tones. Or running an 18W Marshall or a JTM45 rather than a 100W Super Lead. You can get to 'that' sound at a much more reasonable volume levela and I'm not talking about preamp gain though often they go hand in hand. Like I said, I think it adds a complexity to a generally similar sound. Not everyone really hears it and of course, maybe not everyone is going for it, but when that's the sound you want... there isn't a modeler or a solid state amp I've heard that even comes very close.

Until wyatt chimes in, if you have 10 minutes, read the Hartley Peavey article honeyiscool linked to a couple pages back. Keep in mind, that's somewhat of a slanted article, but well worth reading.

Nice answer...thanks.

[benzem]

Originally Posted by Rick 381

Yes. It's called the Vox Valvetronix

No. It's NOT a tube preamp! The tube is in the power stage. BUT it's not a tube poweramp either, the tube is merely integrated in the power stage. Basically, the tube recieves just enough juice to light up. You might as well have a tube jewel light.

IOW, it does nothing but sell amps

Kudos to Vox for clever marketing tho, they knew their customers. This hasd been covered here many times, and people still assume it's a tube pre.

[Wyatt]

Originally Posted by twofoolsaminute

So, realistically, a really great sounding amp could be constructed using a tube pre-amp and a solid state power amp?

You could for a hi-gain amp where many players rely solely on the preamp for distortion. Just look at all the hi-gain rack-mounted preamps available. these get pair with all sorts of power amps, and often with non at all (instead a direct box straight to the mixer).

These days, beyond modeling, the big emphasis is on SS reproductions of exact amp circuits. Pretty much the original schematic is redone with discrete parts and certain transistors are picked with how well they match certain tube tones...it's the theory behind pedals like the Sans-Amp Character series, the Menatone line, OLC pedals, etc. The Retro RR1 is pretty much this concept expanded back out into a full amp again. We always joke about modelers being 01101001010...either it's off (0) or on(1)...well, with fuzzy logic, you don't actually have to be 0 or 1, but can be somewhere inbetween.

As to tubes vs solid-state...tubes have always been favored because they are...well less efficient and accurate at what they do...they are less linear, roll off harsher frequencies, and a bit random in how they behave...I mean they are actually throwing electrons across the tube all willy-nilly...it's a bit more "organic" in operation. All of these combines to (often) create a tone that is less ear fatiguing that more efficient, more exact SS components do. With work, there is no reason one can't make a SS amp behave like a tube amp, it's just how much work can you put in before it becomes too cumbersome and expensive. Plus, since they still make tube s and tube amps, it's kinda re-inventing the wheel.

[Greg.Coal]

Originally Posted by Athiest_Peace

ummm... I'm 40, and I didn't say the lead sucked, just said it was weak, which I think it is. But I also said I really enjoy the amp. (Forgive me if I took your comment wrong that it was directed towards me answering about the question of the peavey transtube.)

No, not aimed at you at all. More about the unreliability of on-line reviews esp when posted anonymously.

People should notice (many do) that musical instrument amplification is moving swiftly towards an array of digital or modeled effects upstream of clean, solid state power amplification. Works for me.

Greg

[ballhawk]

Originally Posted by benzem

No. It's NOT a tube preamp! The tube is in the power stage. Basically, the tube recieves just enough juice to light up. You might as well have a tube jewel light. Kudos to Vox for clever marketing tho, they knew their customers. This hasd been covered here many times, and people still assume it's a tube pre.

You are correct in your first statements but wrong about the "jewel light" and the marketing.

As you stated this has been covered many times here and I know I linked or inserted Vox's explanation of using a 12ax7 to emulate power tube saturation, as a search will show.

We can argue if they did that successfully (I think they did for the most part) but it is not a gimmick and their marketing certainly trumpeted the preamp tube as power tube functionality. Some folks who thought it was a preamp tube just didn't bother to read the description that was provided by the marketing.

I think all Vox's modelers/ss amps start out with a great fundamental tone regardless of the tube. However I've used the tonelab on many gigs over the last 8 years or so and have also used the ss non-tube Vox incarnations (DA-5, Pathfinder) enough to say the tube is utilized, imho of course.

[weehaw]

Somebody mentioned Randall a ways back in this thread. The old Randalls kicked ass. This was my rig for a while and I thought it sounded great, very close to Marshall JCM800 territory IMO.

[Rose Pickups]

I really love my Yamaha G100 115. Killer cleans. I would have a hard time letting this go.

[lowbrow]

I've been spending a lot of time with germanium transistor based fuzz pedals the last year or so. Generally, germanium transistors occupy kind of the middle ground in how they handle signal response and clipping with respect to tube and silicone based solid state transistors. I've not investigated what of the early solid state amps might have had germanium based pre-amps and/or even power amps. Where there any?

[Wyatt]

Originally Posted by lowbrow

I've been spending a lot of time with germanium transistor based fuzz pedals the last year or so. Generally, germanium transistors occupy kind of the middle ground in how they handle signal response and clipping with respect to tube and silicone based solid state transistors. I've not investigated what of the early solid state amps might have had germanium based pre-amps and/or even power amps. Where there any?

Don't know. I would guess many of the early SS amps, Vox and others, would have used some just because that's what was available in the mid-'60's. Germanium have a major downside in an amp though, they are temperature sensitive, their whole performance in a fuzz can change from little more than stage lighting, imagine the effect in a hot amp chassis.

But the downside to any SS amp is the transistors and op-amps go out of production. The older the SS amp, the bigger the chance you won't be able to get the parts to repair if it dies. Resistors and caps and pots are always available...the early transistors seem to be more available probably because they became obsolete faster than than the manufactures assumed, but finding a op-amp from 1978 often means making a bulk 1000-unit purchase from a NOS liquidator.

By comparison, most common (audio) tubes are still available, originally through military surpluses (the military was still stockpiling and using tubes into the '80's...especially in jets), and now new manufacture because there is a largest enough "hobbyist market".

[Will Chen]

 

There are lots of SS amps rated for RMS wattage, too, you know. Ratings for guitar amps are kind of all over the place anyway. Don't give me this line about tubes are rated for RMS, SS is rated for peak. The rating is whatever the manufacturer wants it to mean.

 

 

Yes and no. The HiFi industry of yore had a great many file complaints due to being sold system with high power ratings which actually had modest clean headroom. As such, there's a consumer protection law on the books somewhere which dictates amps must be rated based on their clean power. Granted, there isn't a standardized testing methodology, but suffice to say that Wyatt's posts are correct.

[honeyiscool]

I haven't had a problem finding op-amps for my amps. I'm just lucky that I don't have any really old SS amps, I guess.

[Wyatt]

 

I haven't had a problem finding op-amps for my amps. I'm just lucky that I don't have any really old SS amps, I guess.

 

 

Through the '80's, planned obsolescence was common practice with transistors and op-amps. Op-amps would be discontinued and the next generation would have a completely different pinout. This meant eventually everyone had to switch to the new bug. If any of your amps used a JRC4558D, even those were phased out once...one of very few chips to go back into production after a long hiatus during the '90's...people were pulling them from '80's car stereos to use for guitar effects then.

 

These days the approach is more about lean manufacturing. Instead of making a dozen different op-amps that each do one job really well...make one chip that does every job satisfactory. That's also why there no longer as many options in pot tapers and tapping, there a no longer dedicated audio-quality resistors (aside from the hobbyist market), etc.

[honeyiscool]

Aren't there pin-compatible replacements for the JRC4558 like OPA2134? I don't know much about op-amps, but weren't the 4558s just the cheapest stuff at the time? I've heard of people taking apart {censored}ty tape recorders of the time just to get some bucks' worth of 4558s out of them.

[valued customer]

Quick Peavy note... Researching one of thir 80's solid state pre to tube power models this week, came across a remarkably in-depth and intelligent review praisinng the accessibility and swappability (op amps wise) of the circuit boards. Evidently (on the model I was looking up, a VT of some kind) The op amps are socketed so that swapping / replacng doesn't even require a soldering iron. Schmart.

[Wyatt]

 

Aren't there pin-compatible replacements for the JRC4558 like OPA2134? I don't know much about op-amps, but weren't the 4558s just the cheapest stuff at the time? I've heard of people taking apart {censored}ty tape recorders of the time just to get some bucks' worth of 4558s out of them.

 

 

Lots of replacements for the 4558, I think pinouts are pretty standardized these days. People like the TL072, 5532, etc. I love the LM803. And with a NTE cross-reference guide, I think people can find acceptable replacements for older amps as well, but at some point...it's not worth it.

 

But, yeah, the 4558D was in everything in the '80's, I'm sure it was the cheapest good audio chip available.

 

Just to note, I don't buy and restore old '50's and '60's tube amps either, except maybe Fender, Marshall. So many others used bargain basement parts and to really get them in tip-top shape, they need to be gutted...and then they are worthless. Catch 22. if I can get them for the price of a new chassis or cabinet...maybe.

[Radar-Love]

 

Random responses to some of the banter here

 

Lab Series were great amps. I do recall some people having problems with one or two of the models, though.

 

Tech21 Trademark/Landmark amps and Lab Series amps are design cousins (similar circuits based on FET technology).

 

Peavey TransTube series are nice sounding at clean to moderate overdrive settings. I like the TransTube bass amps the most. Clean cheap used examples that lived their lives in someones closet are extremely wise buys.

 

My Randall RH150-G3 has an unusual topology, in that it has a solid state preamp section and a solid state power amps section, but the preamp is mated to the power amp via a 12AT7/ECC81 driver valve.

 

 

 

[Larry the Dog]

I had an Ampeg SS70-C combo over 20 years ago. Think of a Roland JC120 with a great OD channel. Heavy mother{censored}er, but an all around great amp.

[Radar-Love]

 

That's not what the valvetronix is at all.

 

 

 

It's called Vox ValveReactor.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[honeyiscool]

 

Quick Peavy note... Researching one of thir 80's solid state pre to tube power models this week, came across a remarkably in-depth and intelligent review praisinng the accessibility and swappability (op amps wise) of the circuit boards. Evidently (on the model I was looking up, a VT of some kind) The op amps are socketed so that swapping / replacng doesn't even require a soldering iron. Schmart.

 

It's true. Their chips are socketed on the three Peaveys I've looked inside.