Best non-modeling solid state amp of all time?

[Doctor49]

Originally Posted by Cobalt Blue

This {censored}ing kid is brilliant. Leave him alone. .

this kid is 25.
bit old to be called a kid.
unless you are my age in which case anyone under 40 is a kid.

[Wyatt]

Originally Posted by honeyiscool

There are lots of SS amps rated for RMS wattage, too, you know. Ratings for guitar amps are kind of all over the place anyway. Don't give me this line about tubes are rated for RMS, SS is rated for peak. The rating is whatever the manufacturer wants it to mean.

In any case, there are many guitar amps with one volume knob, and the power amp in guitar amps is FAR, FAR, FAR from a tube hi-fi amp. Even in solid state amps, they are far from a hi-fi amp. Hartley Peavey says as much in this document that was linked here the other day: http://peavey.com/support/technotes/.../chapter_3.pdf

Really great read, btw. Some real wisdom from a guy who's made a lot of great tube and solid state amps over the years.

Bulll{censored}.

First off your argument is counter to your original argument that a 15-watt tube amp can't produce 15 watts without distorting. It can. 15 watts RMS means a 15-watt tube amp can produce 15 CLEAN watts (give or take, I agree that RMS ratings vary)...the fact that it can overdrive into peak wattage above that doesn't negate it's clean headroom.

SS amps are not rated to peak wattage. SS amps can be overdriven just as much as tube amps...old Vox and Kustom SS amps did just that. But since people find SS overdrive "harsh' all SS amps are LIMITED to their RMS wattage, which is actually a bit generous since you have to allow for the signal swing up without clipping.

And you are totally clueless on how a power amp works. You are either misinterpreting or unable to comprehend what you read.

I design and build tube guitar amps... I design build tube hi-fi amps... I built a goddamn surround-sound tube system. Trust me...with the exception of phase inverter design, power amps are same the world over. It's all in what you feed it.

[Wyatt]

Originally Posted by Doctor49

this kid is 25.
bit old to be called a kid.
unless you are my age in which case anyone under 40 is a kid.

Is he?!?

Wow.

[cratz2]

Originally Posted by Wyatt

I design and build tube guitar amps... I design build tube hi-fi amps... I built a goddamn surround-sound tube system. Trust me...with the exception of phase inverter design, power amps are same the world over. It's all in what you feed it.

Hey now... let's not confuse the issue with the facts.

[honeyiscool]

Originally Posted by Wyatt

I design and build tube guitar amps... I design build tube hi-fi amps... I built a goddamn surround-sound tube system. Trust me...with the exception of phase inverter design, power amps are same the world over. It's all in what you feed it.

Are you saying that hi-fi amps all over the world have unregulated power supplies resulting in voltage drop when the transformer's pushed? That would be news to me.

Dude, I'm happy that you design tube amps, but only some amps have a preamp section specifically to provide color, as you called it. Many amps are being colored at the power amp stage as well. Much of this was probably unintentional, but it happens and it's replicated in amps made today, despite the fact that it doesn't need to.

[twofoolsaminute]

How does the Peavey Special 130 compare to the Bandit 65? I have two Special 30's that I keep hanging on to.

[billybilly]

I'm thinking about trying out one of those Peavey Bandit 112 transtubes now (don't really need it but whatever). More than one person has given them great raps on this post and Peavey is the only brand down here that is pretty much the same price as in the US. Most other amps are 50% more.

Any comments if they have any warmth to them?

[BryanMichael]

IMO, There have been several that did a few things well. JC120 sounds okay, but was always just a hair too sterile for me. It's a good amp though. BC60 is a nice, toneful amp! I'd also throw in the Tech 21 Trademark 60, the Fender Princeton Chorus (much more character than the Roland JC for cleans...although a bit underpowered) and the old Peavey studio chorus amps. I've played through all of them at one time or another and felt they were all "nice amps"

[Spike Li]

Originally Posted by honeyiscool

1. Is it the most accepted answer? I've read threads where JC-120 gets named among people's least favorite amps as well as most favorite amps. It's not a universally loved amp and many people have divided opinions about it.

And really, I'm not necessarily arguing against the JC-120. For the umpteenth time, I like the amp. And how many times do I have to say "I think" before people just accept that "I think," that it's far from "I know"? I think the Roland BC-60 is better than JC-120. I think the Pathfinder 15R is more fun than it. I think the Peavey Bandit 65 has more character than it. I'm not saying that you should agree with me, it's not an argument. It's rather that I currently have or have had these amps and the JC-120, so that's my honest opinion. Have you compared them head to head?

2. I've read here and there that the Peavey Bandit at some point was the best selling amp in the world. If that's true, well, I don't know. Regardless, looking at second hand shops, I would think that Peavey has the crown for most popular solid state amps in the world. As for taking pedals, a high end powered speaker takes pedals better than a JC, IMO. I really don't know what people had in the 80s that people thought they made good keyboard amps because a JC doesn't work for me in that role at all. Maybe if the cabs were closed and chambered...

Yeah, the most accepted answer. You know that thread where you asked people what the best SS amp "of all time" was and the most common answer was the JC-120? Im not talking about other threads that youve read in the past that I have no knowledge of, Im talking about this one right here, that you started...

I get that you prefer the BC60 to the JC120, because you know, you stated it in your first post, but why bother to then go on a rant about how overrated the JC120 is only after a whole bunch of people voted for it? Saying stuff like "The only reason why everyone compares it to the JC is because it was the first SS amp that got popular.", "Yes, it's the most celebrated solid state amp. I get it. Now onto the other stuff." and "The best amp ever shouldn't have a "but the distortion sucks" attached to it every time it is spoken of, and for that caveat to be a universally agreed upon fact." sounds a lot like you are dismissing other peoples opinions as invalid... opinions that you asked for... like saying "I asked what 'the best SS amp of all time' was and people didnt agree with me so therefore I think you are wrong for these reasons:"....

I used to have a Bandit 112 redstripe. It was MIC so Im not sure how comparable it was to MIA bandits. It was alright but kinda harsh and fizzy. I traded it in to get a ZT Lunchbox and never looked back
Ive tried a BC-60 before. Wasnt really a fan, but it was a long time ago and my tastes in gear have changed a bit.

I think the ZT Lunchbox is a great amp- the perfect backup amp as its tiny, light, can work by itself or through a cab, takes pedals well and has great dynamics. Its pretty much a mini JC-120 except more versatile. If I had the choice between getting rid of mine or the JC I would keep the ZT. All that said, I wouldnt call it the "best of all time". The JC has a long and impressive track record which is pretty hard to beat.

[Wyatt]

Originally Posted by honeyiscool

Are you saying that hi-fi amps all over the world have unregulated power supplies resulting in voltage drop when the transformer's pushed? That would be news to me.

Uh...McIntosh? Harmon? And the other 1,000 vintage and modern tube hi-fi's all based on the Williamson design (which is also the basis for many guitar poweramps including Standel, Fender, Dr. Z, and lots others)

Originally Posted by honeyiscool

Dude, I'm happy that you design tube amps, but only some amps have a preamp section specifically to provide color, as you called it. Many amps are being colored at the power amp stage as well. Much of this was probably unintentional, but it happens and it's replicated in amps made today, despite the fact that it doesn't need to.

Oh? How? There aren't any tone-shaping elements in a power amp...no high/low pass filtering (except presence), no coupling caps, no tone caps, only power filtering. And people put way too much stock in tube type and output tranformers, they aren't filters.

Please...show me one. I have thousands of schematics and never seen a "voiced" power amp. Throw a Vox preamp circuit in front of a Diesel or Marshall or ultralinear Twin Reverb power amp and it'll sound like a Vox.

[twofoolsaminute]

So, Wyatt, does that mean that a tube power amp is not all it's cracked up to be? A good tube preamp with a solid state power amp would sound the same as if it had a tube power stage instead?

[Doctor49]

Originally Posted by Wyatt

Is he?!?

Wow.

thats what he says.

[Wyatt]

Originally Posted by twofoolsaminute

So, Wyatt, does that mean that a tube power amp is not all it's cracked up to be? A good tube preamp with a solid state power amp would sound the same as if it had a tube power stage instead?

Not at all.

Most of the legendary classic rock sounds were captured with non-master-volume amps...Plexi's, Tweeds, BF Fenders, Vox, etc all have low-gain preamps. When you cranked them would push both preamp and poweramp into overdrive and that is how they got a fuller, bigger, thicker overdrive sound as a result. Many people think a Plexi is the ultimate hard rock/classic rock overdrive amp, they don't realize that a 50-watt Plexi will blow patrons out of a bar before it even starts to break-up, it gets real loud before the signal is ever strong enough to clip.

Now with modern hi-gain amps, the power amp matters less...hi-gain amps are design to get their overdrive from the preamp only, you want it paired with a big, powerful clean poweramp because you don't want power tube overdrive to smooth out definition and turn it all to mud...that's why you see so many 100-watt hi-gain heads on stage, even in bars. And it's why it's so much easier to make a convincing hi-gain overdrive pedal...you just put a preamp in a box.

Then there is something like the classic JCM800, which sits somewhere in the middle.

[Athiest_Peace]

Originally Posted by billybilly

I'm thinking about trying out one of those Peavey Bandit 112 transtubes now (don't really need it but whatever). More than one person has given them great raps on this post and Peavey is the only brand down here that is pretty much the same price as in the US. Most other amps are 50% more.

Any comments if they have any warmth to them?

I love mine. The cleans are really nice, the drives ok, but sounds a bit weak. I started using a pair of distortion boxes in my pedal chain, one set for low distirtion, and the second for max distortion. it made it sound better, just going through the clean. I tried other amps but this one just really makes me happy. I've gigged small clubs and wedding dances and the like with mine and it did fine. If you can get one, do it, you wont regret it.

[kulardenu]

Crate Powerblock gets an honorable mention from me though I use it with Modeler Pedals mainly, but still a nice unit.

[Greg.Coal]

Originally Posted by billybilly

I'm thinking about trying out one of those Peavey Bandit 112 transtubes now (don't really need it but whatever). ..[s N I P} ...... Any comments if they have any warmth to them?

It seems obligatory on the internet to say that the the "lead channel sucks" on a Peavey or any solid state amp. Of course, many of those comments were written by 14-year-olds who figured out how to go online with their parents' computer.

I think it was alluded to in this thread (by honeycool!) and has certainly been said elsewhere that it's odd that the cherished and expensive pedals - save for a few - are solid state, whereas, somehow, a nice sounding tone can never come from a solid state guitar amp - suggesting some bias against the amp versions of the same effect.

Add into the mix that 1) new gear often gets reviewed right away before an honest and objective appraisal can be made and 2) the more money we have paid for something the more we are inclined to like it - no, the more we hear what we want to hear, sometimes fooling ourselves. So, the true sound of a solid state amp is likely to be better than given credit for. Certainly, they're the workhorses of low to mid-level gigging musicians everywhere.

The lead channel on a Peavey Bandit Transtube, when adjusted to "mild" pre-gain levels, has a nice edge to it - appropriate for blues or country. I would say warm. Increase the pre-gain and you can venture as deeply into distortion territory as you want.

In a band setting, it works great and you can leave your boutique, investment pedals locked up at home.

Greg

[Deadbeat Son]

I've seen the Tech21 NYC Trademark 60 mentioned in here a number of times. I'd probably agree that it's my favorite SS amp, but the tread title says "non-modeling". Do you all not consider a TM 60 a modeler? I do, but Tech21 gear is also the only brand of modeler I'd even consider due to its all analog design.

[honeyiscool]

Originally Posted by Doctor49

thats what he says.

What's that even supposed to mean?

Let's say I was lying about my age. How old do you think I'll look in another 10 years anyway?

Originally Posted by billybilly

I'm thinking about trying out one of those Peavey Bandit 112 transtubes now (don't really need it but whatever). More than one person has given them great raps on this post and Peavey is the only brand down here that is pretty much the same price as in the US. Most other amps are 50% more.

Any comments if they have any warmth to them?

My non-Transtube Bandit 65 is very warm sounding, almost to a fault (needs the highs cranked to cut through). With the gain on low, it's very versatile. Even the clean channel breaks up quite nicely.

My Transtube Envoy has a harder nosed sound to it, even going into the same cabinet (I have a 1/4" jack wired to the speaker in my Bandit). It sounds very good, but I think if you want warmth, you should look for the old ones. The spring reverb on the old Bandits absolutely rule, and the construction quality is top notch on them. That said, I don't have a Transtube Bandit, and the Envoy is a good amp but it's no Bandit either.

I tend to be someone who keeps gain at around 3-4 on most amps, btw.

[Athiest_Peace]

Originally Posted by Greg.Coal

It seems obligatory on the internet to say that the the "lead channel sucks" on a Peavey or any solid state amp. Of course, many of those comments were written by 14-year-olds who figured out how to go online with their parents' computer.

I think it was alluded to in this thread (by honeycool!) and has certainly been said elsewhere that it's odd that the cherished and expensive pedals - save for a few - are solid state, whereas, somehow, a nice sounding tone can never come from a solid state guitar amp - suggesting some bias against the amp versions of the same effect.

Add into the mix that 1) new gear often gets reviewed right away before an honest and objective appraisal can be made and 2) the more money we have paid for something the more we are inclined to like it - no, the more we hear what we want to hear, sometimes fooling ourselves. So, the true sound of a solid state amp is likely to be better than given credit for. Certainly, they're the workhorses of low to mid-level gigging musicians everywhere.

The lead channel on a Peavey Bandit Transtube, when adjusted to "mild" pre-gain levels, has a nice edge to it - appropriate for blues or country. I would say warm. Increase the pre-gain and you can venture as deeply into distortion territory as you want.

In a band setting, it works great and you can leave your boutique, investment pedals locked up at home.

Greg

ummm... I'm 40, and I didn't say the lead sucked, just said it was weak, which I think it is. But I also said I really enjoy the amp. (Forgive me if I took your comment wrong that it was directed towards me answering about the question of the peavey transtube.)

I don't own a tube amp now, just 3 ss amps. The peavey, that I really enjoy. A crate gfx 212 thats a very nice ss amp, just too loud for the living room. And a small Marshall 15 watter.

[Wyatt]

Originally Posted by honeyiscool

Let's say I was lying about my age. How old do you think I'll look in another 10 years anyway?

Touché, sir.

[Doctor49]

Originally Posted by honeyiscool

What's that even supposed to mean?

It means exactly what it says ffs. That is what you said.

how else do you suggest that I report what you wrote in another thread?

[cratz2]

I've always been of the opinion that I can almost always get a very usable lead tone out of a dirty channel from a Peavey with 1 or 2 12" speakers... set the gain relatively low on the amp, put almost any pedal in front of it that's not a super death metal pedal... set the gain on that relatively low... sometimes you need to roll the volume on the guitar down just a little to take the top fizz off. A guy showed me that in probably 1988 or so. It worked for my Special 130, but Renown and my Classic VTX...

On the issue of preamp/power amp interaction, having owned that VTX for a number of years before I finally got a Twin (which sounded different, but I can't really say it was radically better) maybe my perspective is skewed... or maybe how I tried to get tones impacted my perception, but I've always thought that a solid state preamp section and a tube power section trumps a two or two in the preamp section followed by a SS power section. Perhaps that not fair because usually most of the SS pre/tube power hybrids are big, 'proper' amps whereas the tube pre/SS power amps are often smaller amps and I almost always prefer bigger amps.

The read that honey linked to from Hartley Peavey is an interesting read. I read it quite a while back. I know that even in that capacity, he's trying to sell his amp rather than writing an unbiased discourse, but the fact is the primary theme is he's trying to make a solid state amp sound like a tube amp. That's pretty much your answer right there. I'm not a SS or a modeler hater, but almost without exception, they are trying to sound and feel like tube amps because that's what most players want when it gets down to the actual tone. Problem is, very often folks will go for the wrong tube amp, find it doesn't suit their needs and proclaim that 'tube amps suck' etc... That's not directed anyone that's posted in this thread. Just observation and experience.

[billybilly]

Thanks for all your responses regarding the Peavey Bandit Transtube!

[twofoolsaminute]

Originally Posted by Wyatt

Not at all.

Most of the legendary classic rock sounds were captured with non-master-volume amps...Plexi's, Tweeds, BF Fenders, Vox, etc all have low-gain preamps. When you cranked them would push both preamp and poweramp into overdrive and that is how they got a fuller, bigger, thicker overdrive sound as a result. Many people think a Plexi is the ultimate hard rock/classic rock overdrive amp, they don't realize that a 50-watt Plexi will blow patrons out of a bar before it even starts to break-up, it gets real loud before the signal is ever strong enough to clip.

Now with modern hi-gain amps, the power amp matters less...hi-gain amps are design to get their overdrive from the preamp only, you want it paired with a big, powerful clean poweramp because you don't want power tube overdrive to smooth out definition and turn it all to mud...that's why you see so many 100-watt hi-gain heads on stage, even in bars. And it's why it's so much easier to make a convincing hi-gain overdrive pedal...you just put a preamp in a box.

Then there is something like the classic JCM800, which sits somewhere in the middle.

So, realistically, a really great sounding amp could be constructed using a tube pre-amp and a solid state power amp?

Secondly, what if your distortion is coming from a pedal, does the tube even matter in that equation?

PS. I'm not being a wise-ass. I want to understand what it is about tube amps. The only thing I've ever heard is that it's the breakup/overdriving of the tubes or, in the case of an amp with a tube rectifier, the sag.

[cratz2]

Originally Posted by twofoolsaminute

So, realistically, a really great sounding amp could be constructed using a tube pre-amp and a solid state power amp?

Secondly, what if your distortion is coming from a pedal, does the tube even matter in that equation?

PS. I'm not being a wise-ass. I want to understand what it is about tube amps. The only thing I've ever heard is that it's the breakup/overdriving of the tubes or, in the case of an amp with a tube rectifier, the sag.

I really disagree with your first sentence. Perhaps in theory, but I've never heard one yet.

Hopefully wyatt will come back but in my experience, it depends. If you want high gain tones, whether from a pedal or from a tube or solid state preamp, I don't think the power section matters too much as long as you aren't radically exceeding what a solid state power section can do. Power tubes, esp EL34s it seems (though it could just be the related circuit) like to be pushed so that they aren't sparking clean. That's why you have guys trying to crank their 100W Marshalls. Part of it is probably the speakers being pushed to a certain point, but when you want 'that' sound, it's hard to beat power tubes being pushed a little bit.

Volume capability aside, why do so many people prefer Deluxe Reverbs to Twins for those 'kinda breaking up' tones. Or running an 18W Marshall or a JTM45 rather than a 100W Super Lead. You can get to 'that' sound at a much more reasonable volume levela and I'm not talking about preamp gain though often they go hand in hand. Like I said, I think it adds a complexity to a generally similar sound. Not everyone really hears it and of course, maybe not everyone is going for it, but when that's the sound you want... there isn't a modeler or a solid state amp I've heard that even comes very close.

Until wyatt chimes in, if you have 10 minutes, read the Hartley Peavey article honeyiscool linked to a couple pages back. Keep in mind, that's somewhat of a slanted article, but well worth reading.