What key is the song "Low Rider" in?

[Vito Corleone]

 

Gmaj, not minor. Listen to the harmonica riff that starts on the B (major 3rd) to hear why.

 

 

But then how do you account for the Bb in the main riff?

[Vito Corleone]

Yeah, I've hashed that out in the past. I did up a set list for the band...I always put the keys of the song next to the title. Habit more than anything else. I put 'Hey Jealousy' by the Gin Blossoms as in the key of A. The bass player busted my balls and said it should be in D. I said, yeah...it STARTS on a Dsus2, but it's not in D. The chords are Dsus2, E, F#m, A...clearly, it's in A to me. He never agreed with me. I kept putting in the key of A on the list. I said if he wanted it in D, he could go to the trouble of putting the lists together.

 

So key "signature" is just "whatever you need to call it to help you remember it?" I think there's more to it than that.

 

But our key-on-the-songlist is usually the first note/chord we play. They aren't there to be "correct". They are there to make sure we all start on the same note and play in the same key. And to prevent the inevitable brain farts.---"I KNOW how to play this song...what's the first chord again???" Since I make up the songlists, I notate them in the manner that works for me, but I think the guitarist and bassist often add their own notations to the copies I give them because they either hear things different, or start on different notes/chords than I do or whatever.

[tlbonehead]

Gmaj, not minor. Listen to the harmonica riff that starts on the B (major 3rd) to hear why.

the "melody" riff does start on the Major 3rd.

[tlbonehead]

But then how do you account for the Bb in the main riff?

its rock and roll.

[Alan Roberts]

 

I think key signature does not equal key.

 

 

Correct

[Alan Roberts]

 

I believe I've heard that before also. But not sure EXACTLY what that means when the two are different.

 

 

Sometimes it's easier to notate something in a key besides the one the song is in. Key signature can be tricky, even for the simpliest of things. How do you decide if it's meant to be in C or Am, for instance? A song that's clearly minor in nature would still "appear" to be C major in key signature. And from there it gets even more confusing...

[Vito Corleone]

 

Sometimes it's easier to notate something in a key besides the one the song is in. Key signature can be tricky, even for the simpliest of things. How do you decide if it's meant to be in C or Am, for instance? A song that's clearly minor in nature would still "appear" to be C major in key signature. And from there it gets even more confusing...

 

 

Right. So ABITW COULD be in "C" but notated in "Dm".

 

Although I get the logic, it still seems wrong to me that a song so tonally in Dm would actually be in C just because that where the fewest accidentals are.

[Funkwire]

 

So key "signature" is just "whatever you need to call it to help you remember it?" I think there's more to it than that. But our key-on-the-songlist is usually the first note/chord we play. They aren't there to be "correct". They are there to make sure we all start on the same note and play in the same key.

 

 

These sentences contradict each other....

[Vito Corleone]

 

These sentences contradict each other....

 

 

Only because I'm asking what the full definition of "key signature" is. If it only means "call it what you need to call it", then whatever I put down on the paper is the key signature, and different members of the band may use different key signatures for the same song.

 

If it has another definition?

[rangefinder]

Hmmm, another one of these threads...

 

"Key signature" is just a notational convention. It's pretty much useless. Especially for those without music stands.

 

"Song Key" is the root (i.e. "bottom") note of the "tonic", which is the chord that the piece resolves to at the end (or "wants" to resolve to). But that's fairly useless as well, because the vast majority of a given song (including the lead-in) might modulate to a different key, or no particular key at all, which is why the "changes" are what are really important.

 

As for commercially-available sheet music, it often DOES arbitrarily change the song key, probably because they won't sell as many copies of a piece in, say, D-flat major. So instead they change it to C, transpose down a half-step, and everyone's happy, except the band member who's playing flat and doesn't realize why.

 

Maybe everyone already knew this and is just griping. If so, please ignore all of this.

 

The moral? Do whatever works best for you and your band.

[Vito Corleone]

 

As for commercially-available sheet music, it often DOES arbitrarily change the song key, probably because they won't sell as many copies of a piece in, say, D-flat major. So instead they change it to C, transpose down a half-step, and everyone's happy, except the band member who's playing flat and doesn't realize why.

 

 

What I meant about the sheet music is the single-instrument/note versions were written to be played in the same key but denoted a different key (signature?) in the number of sharps/flats on the staff.

[rangefinder]

 

What I meant about the sheet music is the single-instrument/note versions were written to be played in the same key but denoted a different key (signature?) in the number of sharps/flats on the staff.

 

 

So you're saying the actual notes played are the same in both versions? Well, that comes back to the key signature just being an arbitrary convenience, and the reason music theoreticians don't (or shouldn't) pay much attention to it.

[Vito Corleone]

 

So you're saying the actual notes played are the same in both versions?

 

 

Yes. Go to Musicnotes.com and look up the Piano/Vocal version of ABITW. First chord Dm. One flat on the staff. Look up the Bass Guitar version. First note D. No sharps or flats on the staff.

 

 

Well, that comes back to the key signature just being an arbitrary convenience, and the reason music theoreticians don't (or shouldn't) pay much attention to it.

 

 

OK. So then what determines the actual KEY of the piece? And isn't that somewhat of an arbitrary convenience as well? Since a song like ABITW clearly resolves to Dm, isn't saying that the 'actual' key is C because there are fewer accidentals in the piece that way, simply a matter of notational convenience rather than anything to do with tone, structure, harmony, melody, etc.?

[rangefinder]

 

OK. So then what determines the actual KEY of the piece?

 

 

The root of the tonic the piece resolves to (or "wants" to resolve to).

 

 

And isn't that somewhat of an arbitrary convenience as well?

 

 

Yes, depending on the piece. If I say "twelve-bar blues in E", that's pretty much all you need to know. If we're discussing a typical Pink Floyd piece, it's kind of silly IMO to even argue about it.

 

 

Since a song like ABITW clearly resolves to Dm, isn't saying that the 'actual' key is C because there are fewer accidentals in the piece that way, simply a matter of notational convenience rather than anything to do with tone, structure, harmony, melody, etc.?

 

 

Well, it's simply wrong. The NOTES matter, not how they are written. If I want, I can arbitrarily combine sharps and flats as part of the key signature, or use double-sharps, or whatever. That doesn't change the key of the piece, or the chord changes within it.

[Vito Corleone]

 

The root of the tonic the piece resolves to (or "wants" to resolve to).

 

 

Well, that was MY thought. But others here told me that the proper "key" is that which gives you the fewest accidentals and that what a piece resolves to is more a function of modality. In which case, ABITW would properly be in C major.

 

So I researched that and did find support for that argument. But, as I said earlier, I also found support for other arguments. I'm not sure it's something that is 100% set in stone.

 

But if that IS the "proper" way, then I believe it's a rather outdated, semantic argument. It's like discussing "proper" English. It might be an interesting parlor discussion to know what is the "proper" way to say/write something, but if nobody in 2012 uses that construct, it's little more than interesting trivia at this point.

[rangefinder]

Well, that was MY thought. But others here told me that the proper "key" is that which gives you the fewest accidentals and that what a piece resolves to is more a function of modality. In which case, ABITW would properly be in C major. So I researched that and did find support for that argument. But, as I said earlier, I also found support for other arguments. I'm not sure it's something that is 100% set in stone. But if that IS the "proper" way, then I believe it's a rather outdated, semantic argument. It's like discussing "proper" English. It might be an interesting parlor discussion to know what is the "proper" way to say/write something, but if nobody in 2012 uses that construct, it's little more than interesting trivia at this point.

 

Well, I'm very certain that my theory statements are correct, although you can always bring up gray areas (e.g. is the final section an integral part of the piece, or a coda), and (as I said myself) there are songs for which the entire discussion is pretty much pointless.

 

In any case, give me the changes, and do whatever you want with the rest.

[3shiftgtr]

Awwwwright...let's see if I can help. I'm a helper.

 

Although the bassist adds some passing notes and color doo dads, the bass line is G minor pentatonic (G, Bb, C, D, F). The melody however is based on G mixolydian (G, A, B, C, D, E, F). So you have a minor 3rd in the bass and a major 3rd in the melody.

 

This is what causes much of the confusion and argument. Theoretically, it's polyvalent or more specifically polymodal (although the minor pent is not a mode). It uses 2 different tonalities from the same key. Where the confusion comes in is when you have the Bb in the bass line and the big fat B starting out the melody. But since the minor 3rd in the bass line zips by so quick, one never gets the sound of the 'rub' between the maj and min 3rd. This is a tradition in modern American music dating back to turn of the century blues wherein major chords were used to accompany minor pentatonic melodies in the same key. They even went so far as to 'blur' the 3rd, singing it a microtone between the minor and major.

 

This major/minor rub is quite dissonant, but our ears don't hear it that way, as much American music is built of this tradition. Early rock and roll had Dominant 7 chords under minor pent melodies, which are kind of the opposite of what is happening in Low Rider (major in the melody and minor in the bass).

 

As to what key the song is on paper, that is up to whoever is putting it down on paper. 99 times out of 100, the transcriptionist takes the path that is easiest to read. Many would write this in C even, cuz G mixo is C on paper and put the accidental on the Bb in the bass. But these days, they just let the computer do it. As far as it being in 'F'.....let's see....F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E....It could work on paper, but the resolution would then be on the 2nd. The first note of the melody would be a big fat #4.....naaaahhhh.....

 

On the bandstand you'd just yell, Low Rider in G and the over all tonality would be G mixolydian with the obvious Bb in the bassline being the exception.

[wades_keys]

 

Someone over-applied beginner's music theory, and guido over-reacted to it. A lot of "over-ing" as is typical here. I'd say "Low Rider" is in the lowest key your singer can hit that vocal in, but with the notes given, it'd probably be called "G minor", though that riff was born outside the world of Western European music that we base our key designations on.

 

Wrong answer. I was talking about tone centers. Nice try though.

[wades_keys]

 

Awwwwright...let's see if I can help. I'm a helper. Although the bassist adds some passing notes and color doo dads, the bass line is G minor pentatonic (G, Bb, C, D, F). The melody however is based on G mixolydian (G, A, B, C, D, E, F). So you have a minor 3rd in the bass and a major 3rd in the melody. This is what causes much of the confusion and argument. Theoretically, it's polyvalent or more specifically polymodal (although the minor pent is not a mode). It uses 2 different tonalities from the same key. Where the confusion comes in is when you have the Bb in the bass line and the big fat B starting out the melody. But since the minor 3rd in the bass line zips by so quick, one never gets the sound of the 'rub' between the maj and min 3rd. This is a tradition in modern American music dating back to turn of the century blues wherein major chords were used to accompany minor pentatonic melodies in the same key. They even went so far as to 'blur' the 3rd, singing it a microtone between the minor and major. This major/minor rub is quite dissonant, but our ears don't hear it that way, as much American music is built of this tradition. Early rock and roll had Dominant 7 chords under minor pent melodies, which are kind of the opposite of what is happening in Low Rider (major in the melody and minor in the bass). As to what key the song is on paper, that is up to whoever is putting it down on paper. 99 times out of 100, the transcriptionist takes the path that is easiest to read. Many would write this in C even, cuz G mixo is C on paper and put the accidental on the Bb in the bass. But these days, they just let the computer do it. As far as it being in 'F'.....let's see....F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E....It could work on paper, but the resolution would then be on the 2nd. The first note of the melody would be a big fat #4.....naaaahhhh..... On the bandstand you'd just yell, Low Rider in G and the over all tonality would be G mixolydian with the obvious Bb in the bassline being the exception.

 

Nice.

 

ChickenMonkey: this is how it's done. See dude: I know you have skills. But for you to snark on me and my application of theory really only makes you look like one of those cork sniffers.

 

Next time why not help out, or give your take? Or keep looking down your nose at me even though clearly you can't know what I've studied and applied over the years.

 

Oh yeah: recall that David and I found two pro-level transcriptions, one of which agreed with my interpretation an one agreeing with his. So perhaps you should call out Hal Leonard's transcriber? No doubt your massive skills would be an asset and he would bow to your superior knowledge.

 

Nice post John. Hope to see more like this in the future.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Oh yeah: recall that David and I found two pro-level transcriptions, one of which agreed with my interpretation an one agreeing with his.

 

 

IIRC, the transcription you found showing the song in "C" was a single-note bass guitar transcription, and not a 'full score', wasn't it? I don't recall any 'full score' transcriptions in "C".

 

And, FWIW, my reading of the posts in this thread indicate to me that Chicken Monkey would be more inclined to agree with your interpretation of the proper key while 3shftgtr seems more inclined towards the "it's whatever the transcriber says it is" POV....

[3shiftgtr]

 

IIRC, the transcription you found showing the song in "C" was a single-note bass guitar transcription, and not a 'full score', wasn't it? I don't recall any 'full score' transcriptions in "C". And, FWIW, my reading of the posts in this thread indicate to me that Chicken Monkey would be more inclined to agree with your interpretation of the proper key while 3shftgtr seems more inclined towards the "it's whatever the transcriber says it is" POV....

 

 

Let me clarify: I said the key they TRANSCRIBE the song in is usually the one that's easiest to read. Their primary purpose is to get it on paper and playable. Way down the list is it's tonally interpretative aspects theory wise. The key of the song in this case is interpretative ON PAPER.

 

Analyzing it from a musical sound perspective is it's theoretical application (the G mixo melody and the G pent minor bass line). Analyzing it from it's elements on the page include intention and interpretative elements by the engraver/transcriptionist (the choice of key signature by the transcriptionist)

[Vito Corleone]

 

Let me clarify: I said the key they TRANSCRIBE the song in is usually the one that's easiest to read. Their primary purpose is to get it on paper and playable. Way down the list is it's tonally interpretative aspects theory wise. The key of the song in this case is interpretative ON PAPER. Analyzing it from a musical sound perspective is it's theoretical application (the G mixo melody and the G pent minor bass line). Analyzing it from it's elements on the page include intention and interpretative elements by the engraver/transcriptionist (the choice of key signature by the transcriptionist)

 

 

OK. But here's the question I've yet to have fully answered (not that I care THAT much because I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter in any practical sense of being able to play music well---at least not at my level) and this goes back to not getting a clear answer months ago when we were having the "Brick" discussion.

 

IS there a definitive way to determine a song's ACTUAL key? IS there an ACTUAL key? I understand you can transcribe any song in any key you choose, basically.

 

Is "Brick" in Dm or C major? Or something else? Or is the answer "it depends"? Is "Low Rider" in Gmaj or Gmin? Or something else?

[Lee Knight]

So key "signature" is just "whatever you need to call it to help you remember it?" I think there's more to it than that. But our key-on-the-songlist is usually the first note/chord we play. They aren't there to be "correct". They are there to make sure we all start on the same note and play in the same key. And to prevent the inevitable brain farts.---"I KNOW how to play this song...what's the first chord again???" Since I make up the songlists, I notate them in the manner that works for me, but I think the guitarist and bassist often add their own notations to the copies I give them because they either hear things different, or start on different notes/chords than I do or whatever.

 

Wow, that's a scary notion to me. If a song's key is A, with chords of D, E, F#m, Bm, C#m... but the first chord was D and you wrote the key as D... I'd be starting on G. And I'd be right and everybody else that didn't get chord theory would be wrong!

[Vito Corleone]

Wow, that's a scary notion to me. If a song's key is A, with chords of D, E, F#m, Bm, C#m... but the first chord was D and you wrote the key as D... I'd be starting on G. And I'd be right and everybody else that didn't get chord theory would be wrong!

 

Then you should use you own notes!

 

It's just a reference---a signature, as the case may be. And probably depends on the song as well. Is Sweet Home Alabama in D or G? I always assumed it's in G because the chords are D-C-G. And, to the degree the riff ever resolves, it resolves to "G" (at least to my ear.) Sounds like a V-IV-I riff to me. But are you saying if I wrote down "D" on the songlist, you'd start the song with an A chord?

[Lee Knight]

 

Awwwwright...let's see if I can help. I'm a helper. Although the bassist adds some passing notes and color doo dads, the bass line is G minor pentatonic (G, Bb, C, D, F). The melody however is based on G mixolydian (G, A, B, C, D, E, F). So you have a minor 3rd in the bass and a major 3rd in the melody. This is what causes much of the confusion and argument. Theoretically, it's polyvalent or more specifically polymodal (although the minor pent is not a mode). It uses 2 different tonalities from the same key. Where the confusion comes in is when you have the Bb in the bass line and the big fat B starting out the melody. But since the minor 3rd in the bass line zips by so quick, one never gets the sound of the 'rub' between the maj and min 3rd. This is a tradition in modern American music dating back to turn of the century blues wherein major chords were used to accompany minor pentatonic melodies in the same key. They even went so far as to 'blur' the 3rd, singing it a microtone between the minor and major. This major/minor rub is quite dissonant, but our ears don't hear it that way, as much American music is built of this tradition. Early rock and roll had Dominant 7 chords under minor pent melodies, which are kind of the opposite of what is happening in Low Rider (major in the melody and minor in the bass). As to what key the song is on paper, that is up to whoever is putting it down on paper. 99 times out of 100, the transcriptionist takes the path that is easiest to read. Many would write this in C even, cuz G mixo is C on paper and put the accidental on the Bb in the bass. But these days, they just let the computer do it. As far as it being in 'F'.....let's see....F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E....It could work on paper, but the resolution would then be on the 2nd. The first note of the melody would be a big fat #4.....naaaahhhh..... On the bandstand you'd just yell, Low Rider in G and the over all tonality would be G mixolydian with the obvious Bb in the bassline being the exception.

 

 

Beautiful. I've quoted you over at th Songwriting forum. Nice.