Members Grayson73 Posted November 13, 2009 Members Share Posted November 13, 2009 Are there any passive 4ohm full-range speakers, other than the Peavey Impulse 1012 which comes in both 4ohm and 8ohm? The Samson TXM16 powered mixer that we use specs out at 500w/channel at 4ohms. Most speakers are 8ohms, which means that they would only get 250w/channel, right? My thinking is that 250w/channel is not enough to power 12" and 15" full-range speakers, so I'm looking for 4ohm speakers. Am I in the right train of thought? The speakers will be used for vocals, acoustic guitar, electric guitar, and if possible, bass guitar and kick drum. Room size 200-300 people. Thanks in advance for any assistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soul-x Posted November 13, 2009 Members Share Posted November 13, 2009 You're placing too much emphasis on wattage alone. You can make up that difference by just stepping up to a speaker that's a couple decibels higher in sensitivity. Example: all things equal, a speaker good for 100 db@ 1w/1m will be louder powered by 250 watts than one that's 97 db @ 1w/1m powered by 500 watts, due to the effects of power compression. I also think that 4 ohm speakers will limit your future flexibility. All that said, you will find a lot of 4 ohm options if you look at dual driver boxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members herbie d Posted November 13, 2009 Members Share Posted November 13, 2009 Ya know, in the local Pawn Shop here, there's a pair of Yorkville 15+1 Elites for sell. They are 4 ohm boxes. The owner who DJ's on the side, told me he ordered them that way from Yorkville. He wanted them that way so he could run them in stereo off one power amp and have a 4 ohm load per side. He says you can order them that way. That was a first for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soul-x Posted November 13, 2009 Members Share Posted November 13, 2009 Ya know, in the local Pawn Shop here, there's a pair of Yorkville 15+1 Elites for sell. They are 4 ohm boxes. The owner who DJ's on the side, told me he ordered them that way from Yorkville. He wanted them that way so he could run them in stereo off one power amp and have a 4 ohm load per side. He says you can order them that way. That was a first for me. Yeah, we just had a poster here looking for a power amp to power his 4 ohm Elite 354s. His well-matched options were definitely limited (pun intended). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted November 13, 2009 Members Share Posted November 13, 2009 250 watts into 8 ohms matches well with the typical speaker this mixer would be commonly used for. In fact, power is not the most important spec. Finding a speaker with a sensitivity and packaging that suits your needs with the available power you have is how to determine good potential choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fu2jobu Posted November 13, 2009 Members Share Posted November 13, 2009 Yeah, we just had a poster here looking for a power amp to power his 4 ohm Elite 354s. His well-matched options were definitely limited (pun intended). Well let's be fair here. My choices are limited because I am looking for a light weight power amp. If I include power amps of any weight I have many more options for the 354's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted November 13, 2009 Members Share Posted November 13, 2009 Well let's be fair here. My choices are limited because I am looking for a light weight power amp. If I include power amps of any weight I have many more options for the 354's. There are as many options in lightweight power amps than heavy power amps these days, unless cost is your primary criteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fu2jobu Posted November 13, 2009 Members Share Posted November 13, 2009 There are as many options in lightweight power amps than heavy power amps these days, unless cost is your primary criteria. Well the speakers aren't rated for the power most of the light weight power amps put out at 4 ohms. But let's not sidetrack this thread. If anyone is interested in contributing to other thread they can do so in http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?t=2485278 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted November 13, 2009 Members Share Posted November 13, 2009 The Samson TXM16 powered mixer that we use specs out at 500w/channel at 4ohms. Most speakers are 8ohms, which means that they would only get 250w/channel, right? Probably not - amps typically put out 2/3 the power at 8 ohms vs at 4 ohms so it might be around 330w/ch @ 8 ohms. I had thought about looking for a pair of the 4 ohm Impulse 1012's until I did the math: RMX2450 = 500w@8ohms and 750@4ohms so you gain only 1-3/4 db there. Crappy Peavey manuals sez: 1012 8 ohm = 100db@2.83V (= 1 watt = 100db@1w) 1012 4 ohm = 99db@2.83V (= 2 watts = 96db@1w) http://www.peavey.com/assets/literature/manuals/80304759.pdf So you loose 4db with the 4 ohm version vs the 8 ohm version and gain back only the 1-3/4db with the increased power so you loose 2-1/4db by going for the 4 ohm version - and that doesn't even include the loss from power compression! If we assume the Peavey manual is wrong (very common, can't these guys afford a proofreader? ) and they really should have shown the 4 ohm as 102db@2.83V there is still only a 3/4db advantage to the 4 ohm version and you easily loose that from power compression and cable loss . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted November 13, 2009 Members Share Posted November 13, 2009 My thinking is that 250w/channel is not enough to power 12" and 15" full-range speakers, so I'm looking for 4ohm speakers. Am I in the right train of thought? No. There's way more than just raw power that goes into it. Depending on your needs and the efficiency of the speakers, that may be plenty of power. With the wrong 4 ohm speakers, it may not be enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Coaster Posted November 13, 2009 Members Share Posted November 13, 2009 here we go again with someone equating tools to appliances. SR gear are not appliances, they dont make toast or chill your drinks. the most the OP will accomplish with this is black charred smokey remains and the least is a few db improvement (unnoticeable) toss a pair of clubs on the mixer and be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members moody Posted November 13, 2009 Members Share Posted November 13, 2009 Are there any passive 4ohm full-range speakers, other than the Peavey Impulse 1012 which comes in both 4ohm and 8ohm?The Samson TXM16 powered mixer that we use specs out at 500w/channel at 4ohms. Most speakers are 8ohms, which means that they would only get 250w/channel, right? My thinking is that 250w/channel is not enough to power 12" and 15" full-range speakers, so I'm looking for 4ohm speakers. Am I in the right train of thought?The speakers will be used for vocals, acoustic guitar, electric guitar, and if possible, bass guitar and kick drum. Room size 200-300 people.Thanks in advance for any assistance. I'm going to go for a different tack to others on this thread. There is a lot of other stuff going on here and I am going to comment on '250w/channel is not enough to power 12" and 15" full-range speakers' For monitor duties in a loud band - presuming decent (yamaha club etc.) monitors, as long as you don't have kick or bass going through the given monitor, 250 watts is plenty enough to hear yourself. You will run into massive feedback problems before you run out of power. Your bass rig and drums should be loud enough to hear on stage anyway. For mains duties - it will be enough if you keep the low instruments out of the mix and if you want to run bass and kick then you need subs anyway - 500w or 250 watt is not going to make any difference. A 15" cab (single or double) does not equal a sub. Given, for example, a pair of single 12" mains speakers - if you are going to run out of puff (and in most cases I think you wouldn't) you are better off getting a second pair of identical speakers than more power. (please note, I don't advocate double 12 or double 15 cabinets - they have their own problems). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted November 13, 2009 Members Share Posted November 13, 2009 Are there any passive 4ohm full-range speakers, other than the Peavey Impulse 1012 which comes in both 4ohm and 8ohm?The Samson TXM16 powered mixer that we use specs out at 500w/channel at 4ohms. Most speakers are 8ohms, which means that they would only get 250w/channel, right? My thinking is that 250w/channel is not enough to power 12" and 15" full-range speakers, so I'm looking for 4ohm speakers. Am I in the right train of thought?The speakers will be used for vocals, acoustic guitar, electric guitar, and if possible, bass guitar and kick drum. Room size 200-300 people.Thanks in advance for any assistance.there are some, certainly. Especially dual woofer models. Someone posted a question about his Yorkies the other day, which were 4 ohm models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted November 14, 2009 Members Share Posted November 14, 2009 Well the speakers aren't rated for the power most of the light weight power amps put out at 4 ohms. But let's not sidetrack this thread. If anyone is interested in contributing to other thread they can do so in http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?t=2485278 There are plenty of options. IF you understand what you are looking at. Perhaps you do not have as much experience in this area of the market as I do??? Maot manufacturers offer a good range of lower to medium powered lightweight amps. Take a look at QSC for instance. In the CX and PLX-2 lines there are good choices. Crown, Peavey, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al Poulin Posted November 14, 2009 Members Share Posted November 14, 2009 Yorkville did have a few different impedance configurations for similar speakers in their Elite line a few years ago. The E354 / E358 was one. It's bigger brother, the E404 / E408 was another. Yorkville also had the E600 and E604 boxes which were dual 10'' loaded boxes (one vertically mounted/the other horizontally) that were both 4 ohm boxes. (the E604 was just like the E210 of today). Peavey impulse 1012 and 1015s are the other boxes I remembered as being available as 8 or 4 ohms. Al - Party-Time! DJ Services Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted November 14, 2009 Members Share Posted November 14, 2009 Yorkville did have a few different impedance configurations for similar speakers in their Elite line a few years ago. The E354 / E358 was one. It's bigger brother, the E404 / E408 was another. Yorkville also had the E600 and E604 boxes which were dual 10'' loaded boxes (one vertically mounted/the other horizontally) that were both 4 ohm boxes. (the E604 was just like the E210 of today). Al - Party-Time! DJ Services Even though the dual 10" speakers are past their best before date, they are still great sounding boxes, to my ears anyway. Especially the stacked 10" as opposed to the side by side models. I've also got a pair of the EX401's that I just used last Tuesday. They are the 15" speaker, forerunner to the E404 that are 4 ohms. They're rated at 400 watts program, but that seems to be a very conservative rating. Most of those Yorkville boxes of that era had RCF or B&C drivers. And they were built like a tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fu2jobu Posted November 16, 2009 Members Share Posted November 16, 2009 There are plenty of options. IF you understand what you are looking at. Perhaps you do not have as much experience in this area of the market as I do??? Maot manufacturers offer a good range of lower to medium powered lightweight amps. Take a look at QSC for instance. In the CX and PLX-2 lines there are good choices. Crown, Peavey, etc. I didn't mean to get your back up. I know many of you have much more knowledge in this area than me (which is why I posted in this forum in the first place). It's been about 7 years since I haunted these boards but still see a lot of the same names. It is nice to see a lot of you still around selflessly offering advice. The QSC PLX2 series is the first line I looked at. However the lowest rated amp in the line, PLX2 1104, pushes 500 watts (20 Hz - 20 kHz 0.05% THD) at 4ohms. The Yorkville E354's are listed as rated for 350 program watts. So I didn't feel comfortable with the match up. I ruled out the CX series because the price is a little more than I am looking to spend. I can afford it I just don't want to spend that much money at this point. At this point I am thinking of trying to find a used PLX 1202 (original PLX version). 21 pounds but pushes 325w at 4ohms. Would be great to get any insights you could offer in the other thread..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted November 16, 2009 Members Share Posted November 16, 2009 The QSC PLX2 series is the first line I looked at. However the lowest rated amp in the line, PLX2 1104, pushes 500 watts (20 Hz - 20 kHz 0.05% THD) at 4ohms. The Yorkville E354's are listed as rated for 350 program watts. So I didn't feel comfortable with the match up.I ruled out the CX series because the price is a little more than I am looking to spend. I can afford it I just don't want to spend that much money at this point. At this point I am thinking of trying to find a used PLX 1202 (original PLX version). 21 pounds but pushes 325w at 4ohms.Would be great to get any insights you could offer in the other thread..... Sorry, cross quoting is getting too technical for me:) I powered a pair of Yorkville speakers (program 300 watts) with an AP1200 (400 watts a side at 8 ohms) for years. I also powered a pair of Pulse 10m's (150 watts program) with the same amp, but I was very, very cautious. As a matter of fact I used to power them with a Yorkville AP3000 on occasion but I would never recommend that! Punching in your speaker numbers QSC's amp selector comes up with the GX3 (among others). "425 W @ 4 ohms* 27 lbs (12.1 kg) $399" Most Yorkville speakers of that era seem to have been rated conservatively, so it would seem like a good fit unless you're trying to get unrealistic levels. So... what's wrong with that amp? Twenty seven pounds isn't that bad is it? BTW as I may have mentioned, those spekaers were practically made for the Yorkville powered mixers of that era, especially the AP508. Many duos, and small bands had that 354/AP508 combo. I had that exact system for a few months and it was great for what it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Audiopyle Sound Posted November 16, 2009 Members Share Posted November 16, 2009 A couple of very good 4 ohm cabinets that would be a nice match for the OP's rig are the Renkus Heinz CFX121 and CFX151. I've had some of the 12" floor monitors from this series and believe they offer great bang for the buck in build and sound quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted November 16, 2009 CMS Author Share Posted November 16, 2009 Are there any passive 4ohm full-range speakers, other than the Peavey Impulse 1012 which comes in both 4ohm and 8ohm?The Samson TXM16 powered mixer that we use specs out at 500w/channel at 4ohms. Most speakers are 8ohms, which means that they would only get 250w/channel, right? My thinking is that 250w/channel is not enough to power 12" and 15" full-range speakers, so I'm looking for 4ohm speakers. Am I in the right train of thought?The speakers will be used for vocals, acoustic guitar, electric guitar, and if possible, bass guitar and kick drum. Room size 200-300 people.Thanks in advance for any assistance. The cart is pulling the horse. Just get good speakers that are relatively efficient, and you'll be fine. 250w-per is plenty for the type of gig this rig is likely to be supporting. As stated, more efficient speakers can moer than make up for any extra power available into 4 ohms. Note that distortion generally increases when an amp poweres its lowest impedance load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cappttenron Posted November 17, 2009 Members Share Posted November 17, 2009 The cart is pulling the horse. Just get good speakers that are relatively efficient, and you'll be fine. 250w-per is plenty for the type of gig this rig is likely to be supporting. As stated, more efficient speakers can moer than make up for any extra power available into 4 ohms. Note that distortion generally increases when an amp poweres its lowest impedance load. 90% of the people think that applying more watts to a PA gives it a linear response which we all know it doesnt. Marketing assholes love this and prey on noobs with thier BS power specs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted November 17, 2009 Members Share Posted November 17, 2009 I don't see the fixation on 4 ohms. At 8 ohms, many good lightweight amps exist that are in the 200-350 watt range. Stay with 8 ohms, that's where the industry has been for say 20 years. The new PLX2's are fine, as well as something like the older PLX-1602. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted November 17, 2009 CMS Author Share Posted November 17, 2009 I don't see the fixation on 4 ohms. At 8 ohms, many good lightweight amps exist that are in the 200-350 watt range. Stay with 8 ohms, that's where the industry has been for say 20 years.The new PLX2's are fine, as well as something like the older PLX-1602. Trouble is he's using a powered mixer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted November 17, 2009 Members Share Posted November 17, 2009 Trouble is he's using a powered mixer. My response ware in reference to his comments that there weren't good choices lower power-wise in modern lightweight amps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted November 17, 2009 CMS Author Share Posted November 17, 2009 My response ware in reference to his comments that there weren't good choices lower power-wise in modern lightweight amps. Ah, gotcha. Didn't see the backstory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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