A friend wants a jazz box under a grand

[Mikeo]

 

I don't see the post by MrBrown that you are referring to but I believe it is much more involved than economics. Remember that I have built both laminated top and solid topped instruments - lets talk about the differences. Lets start by dividing the group in half - on one side are acoustic jazz guitars, the big wonderful archtops from D'Angelico and Stromberg and the Gibson L models and all the similar things. They basically have one thing in common - they were designed to be play unplugged in. Yes lots of them have pickups added, but almost always they are floating above the top or somehow designed to not affect the vibration of the top. Pick guards float, neck extensions float - nothing impeds the movement of the top.

 

The second group are electric jazz guitars. We think of all of the ES series from Gibson, but Epiphone, Gretsch and many of the PacRim companies make them. Again, they all have one thing in common - they are designed to be plugged in. If the top moves, fine, that will color and affect the tone, but almost without exception, if you play one of these critters without a chord plugged into its little jack it will be weak and anemic.

 

But, you say, they look the same (more or less) - they both have gracefully curved tops and floating bridges and f-holes. And you are right - they do. But the traditional carved solid top is just a heck of a lot of work - even with a duplicarver or a cnc there is a ton of hand work in making a good archtop top sound just right. Read Benedetto's book, you'll get the idea. It also explains why hand carved arch tops and mandolins and violins can start at 10 grand and go up.

 

Gibson wisely decided a long time ago that in their (E)lectric (S)panish series there was no need to make an expensive carved top, if they laminated three pieces of wood (with something pretty on the outside) they could duplicate the shape of a carved top and turn them out like cookies. Others followed suit and we have all the wonderful electric jazz boxes that you guys are suggesting and my friend is looking for.

 

http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10123&t=48705&hilit=freeman

 

http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=44679&hilit=Freeman

 

 

I have a couple of mandolins with carved tops. One is a Flatiron A model I bought maybe 30 years ago and the new one is a Gibson F5G.

 

I don't own any carved top jazz boxes, all my jazz boxes plugin.

 

But there is a ton of work that goes into carving a top.

I just recently watched a guy cave a top on Youtube. One was for a Les Paul style solid top and the other was for a JazxBox

 

 

 

 

 

 

[gardo]

I'm guessinng CNC machines simplify the process for larger production runs

[Freeman Keller]

 

I have a couple of Godin 5th Ave King Pins. It's something to think about and may fit the bill.

One of mine is a Kingpin with no cutaway in sunburst or whatever they call it. and the other is the Kingpin II in burgundy and that has the cutway and 2 P90 like pickups.

 

 

Mikeo, you will love this. He just sent me a CraigsList listing for a KingPin (one P90) and asked what I thought of it. I passed your recommendations to him and I think he is on his way to look at it (and from the sound of things, buy it).

 

Thank you

 

 

[onelife]

 

I don't see the post by MrBrown that you are referring to but I believe it is much more involved than economics. Remember that I have built both laminated top and solid topped instruments - lets talk about the differences. Lets start by dividing the group in half - on one side are acoustic jazz guitars, the big wonderful archtops from D'Angelico and Stromberg and the Gibson L models and all the similar things. They basically have one thing in common - they were designed to be play unplugged in. Yes lots of them have pickups added, but almost always they are floating above the top or somehow designed to not affect the vibration of the top. Pick guards float, neck extensions float - nothing impeds the movement of the top.

 

The second group are electric jazz guitars. We think of all of the ES series from Gibson, but Epiphone, Gretsch and many of the PacRim companies make them. Again, they all have one thing in common - they are designed to be plugged in. If the top moves, fine, that will color and affect the tone, but almost without exception, if you play one of these critters without a chord plugged into its little jack it will be weak and anemic.

 

But, you say, they look the same (more or less) - they both have gracefully curved tops and floating bridges and f-holes. And you are right - they do. But the traditional carved solid top is just a heck of a lot of work - even with a duplicarver or a cnc there is a ton of hand work in making a good archtop top sound just right. Read Benedetto's book, you'll get the idea. It also explains why hand carved arch tops and mandolins and violins can start at 10 grand and go up.

 

Gibson wisely decided a long time ago that in their (E)lectric (S)panish series there was no need to make an expensive carved top, if they laminated three pieces of wood (with something pretty on the outside) they could duplicate the shape of a carved top and turn them out like cookies. Others followed suit and we have all the wonderful electric jazz boxes that you guys are suggesting and my friend is looking for.

 

http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10123&t=48705&hilit=freeman

 

http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=44679&hilit=Freeman

 

 

I've always looked at them as acoustic guitars with pickups or electric guitars with fat hollow bodies.

 

[Verne Andru]

Mr Brown.... I have to call bovine excrement on your comment regarding the use of laminates in building jazz boxes. The real reason for using plywood over solid wood is purely economic. It's 1) cheaper to use a 1/4 inch sheet of plywood, steam and press into shape, then to use a 1 inch thick piece of wood and carve it. and 2) easier to bend.

 

And there is no evidence that solids feedback more then laminate. In fact, I would suspect the opposite too be true, due to the small voids in the laminate.

 

When plywood was first introduced into the market it was priced higher than solid woods and touted as a miracle material for it's strength. I remember ads from back in the day when guitar makers were advertising that plywood was better for electrified guitars for exactly the reasons Mr. Brown gave.

 

Today, of course, plywood has been relegated to an also-ran product but it still bests MDF.

[Mikeo]

Epiphone' date=' Ibanez, Eastman the Loar makes a couple of jazz boxes. [/quote']

 

I was just at a 3 day music fest here in town. The National sales rep from Eastman was there and I got to play this.

Unfortunately, he did not have an amp to play it thru.

 

 

He said it had a solid carved top and it did have JV Jones classic. The import them from Indonesia in to LA, and do the final setups there.

 

about 1400 for the street price.

 

 

 

 

The neck was less Gretsch like and more Gibson like. They do a lovely violin aged stain on it.

[video=youtube;UzCsLvhuZ7k]

[video=youtube;KxiTIt7Uk4Y]

[video=youtube;nD5fBaSg-ks]

[video=youtube;mmLZJOEODVg]

 

 

This is the guy I met, his name is Mark

[video=youtube;SnC10KUoj3w]

 

[Jazzer2020]

There. are some decent Ibanez models in that price range

 

 

http://www.ibanez.com/usa/news/f_products/2013/AE/index.html

 

 

 

 

I will second/third onelife, DeepEnd's choice of Ibanez's Artcore series if your friend still hasn't made his

decision yet.

I have always been amazed at the quality and sound these guitars project.

For me it would be a no-brainer.

 

 

 

[Freeman Keller]

My friend did select and buy the Godin that Mikeo recommended. It is sitting on my work bench waiting for a set of flat wounds and a setup - I'll post some pictures in a day or two.

 

He (and I) really do appreciate the help and advice here - some very good suggestions and as I said, Mikeo was spot on.

[DeepEnd]

My friend did select and buy the Godin that Mikeo recommended. It is sitting on my work bench waiting for a set of flat wounds and a setup - I'll post some pictures in a day or two.

 

He (and I) really do appreciate the help and advice here - some very good suggestions and as I said, Mikeo was spot on.

Be sure to tell him Happy New Guitar Day for us.

[Mikeo]

My friend did select and buy the Godin that Mikeo recommended. It is sitting on my work bench waiting for a set of flat wounds and a setup - I'll post some pictures in a day or two.

 

He (and I) really do appreciate the help and advice here - some very good suggestions and as I said, Mikeo was spot on.

 

Glad I could help.

 

I have both my Godin 5th Ave set up with Daddario Chromes.

 

Hope he digs it. It's a good North American made working man's jazz box. Nothing fancy about it, but nice,

I think I paid 600 or so for my single pick up 5th Ave.

 

 

[Freeman Keller]

OK, here it is

 

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I think he will be happy with it and maybe he'll quit bugging me to build him something

[Mikeo]

OK, here it is

 

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I think he will be happy with it and maybe he'll quit bugging me to build him something

 

Did you get to plug it into an amp yet?

 

The pups run a bit hotter than real 90's, so he'll want to ease down on the volume a bit, and the dial in the tone knob to taste for a mellower jazz sound. That the nicest wood grain pattern I have seen on a Natural. My single pup is in sunburst/cognac burst.

 

 

The single pup model doesn't come with a case, so I bought the TKL AF75, which is made for an Ibanez Artcore. I'd like to order a TKL for the 2 pup 5 Ave I have, as that came in the Godin zipper style TRIC case. They are very bulky, but you can carry them on your back.

 

The 2 pickup sunburst has dropped in price to $767.28 at Sweetwater and MF. The Natural is still $995. This one is like mine.

 

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[Freeman Keller]

I did play it thru my little home made tube amp, no effects, and was somewhat ambivalent about the sound. It was definitely biased to the mids and trebles, however I found that rolling the tone control back didn't really give what I am used to hearing from my humbuckers. I usually run the tone controls on the amp pretty much straight up and use the guitar tone control to tweak it, it seemed to sound better if I backed the amp treble off and kept the guitar all the way up.

 

However it definitely has that jazz archtop type of sound - punchy, quick attack and decay. Its also very playable - neck felt a bit chunky but I kind of like that. A shredder would hate it, but then thats not what we were looking for.

 

I appreciate your council on this and all the advice from everyone who commented.

[Mikeo]

I did play it thru my little home made tube amp, no effects, and was somewhat ambivalent about the sound. It was definitely biased to the mids and trebles, however I found that rolling the tone control back didn't really give what I am used to hearing from my humbuckers. I usually run the tone controls on the amp pretty much straight up and use the guitar tone control to tweak it, it seemed to sound better if I backed the amp treble off and kept the guitar all the way up.

 

However it definitely has that jazz archtop type of sound - punchy, quick attack and decay. Its also very playable - neck felt a bit chunky but I kind of like that. A shredder would hate it, but then thats not what we were looking for.

 

I appreciate your council on this and all the advice from everyone who commented.

 

It is a bit chunkier than many, kind of old school Gibson, but I have a ES 135 that has even a chunkier neck. It's not the neck that you see on newer Les Paul's, for sure.

 

It's definitely not a shredder guitar. There's a lot of tone possibilities in one, so don't write it off, until you find you sound. It's there. Try different amps too.

I use a Fender 65 Deluxe Reissue or a 65 PRRI.

 

 

 

[video=youtube;DnRMbpKkecs]

[video=youtube;EyL1mqchCOY]

[video=youtube;GQWSM01d4Fk]

[video=youtube;3Ojq2kH9MFw]

[video=youtube;C3gfRvcxpfM]

[video=youtube;R7TNBGRFUPM]

[1001gear]

OK, here it is

 

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","title":"IMG_4605-1.jpg","data-attachmentid":32348161}[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","title":"IMG_4604-1.jpg","data-attachmentid":32348162}[/ATTACH]

 

I think he will be happy with it and maybe he'll quit bugging me to build him something

 

Not crazy about that tortoise. Maybe replace with wood? Ebony or even cocobola/brownish stuff. ?

[DeepEnd]

Not crazy about that tortoise. Maybe replace with wood? Ebony or even cocobola/brownish stuff. ?

I don't mind the tortoise pickguard too much but the truss rod cover is a definite "No." I'd be in favor of black for both. Still, very small nitpicks at this point.

[DeepEnd]

. . . There's a lot of tone possibilities in one, so don't write it off, until you find you sound. It's there. Try different amps too.

I use a Fender 65 Deluxe Reissue or a 65 PRRI. . . .

^ +1. Not the same thing as different amps but with my Roland Cube my Schecter sounds like ass through the default Jazz Chorus model, much better through the AC30 model I normally use.

[Freeman Keller]

1 - if he wants to pay me to change the truss rod cover I will, it would not have been my choice but that is certainly easy to change.

 

2 - the pickguard is mounted very high on stand offs (it has to clear the mounting lug on the P90). I anchor my pinkie when I play fingerstyle and found it uncomfortable. Pointed it out to him but I think he will be playing mostly with a plectrum

 

3 - he is playing it thru a Fender Bassman amp that his wife uses for keyboards. I tried it thru my 6/12 watt home made tube amp (I don't know what its supposed to emulate) and a Fender Champ practice amp, but didn't spend a lot of time trying to get it dialed.

[Mikeo]

1 - if he wants to pay me to change the truss rod cover I will, it would not have been my choice but that is certainly easy to change.

 

2 - the pickguard is mounted very high on stand offs (it has to clear the mounting lug on the P90). I anchor my pinkie when I play fingerstyle and found it uncomfortable. Pointed it out to him but I think he will be playing mostly with a plectrum

 

3 - he is playing it thru a Fender Bassman amp that his wife uses for keyboards. I tried it thru my 6/12 watt home made tube amp (I don't know what its supposed to emulate) and a Fender Champ practice amp, but didn't spend a lot of time trying to get it dialed.

 

 

Gibson has a black truss rod cover on their guitars with torti pickguards. Mine is also a 2 screw truss on the one without the cutaway and a 3 screw truss on the cutaway.

 

You may even have something kicking around.

 

The only truss rod cover I replaced was on a Rickenbacker, and that's another story. Never toss out any broken parts on a Rickenbacker, as you will need them to buy anything from those guys. My truss cover was a warranty, but still, it was like pulling teeth getting a new one. Warranty sent in, proof of purchase, sent back the old parts.

 

I almost bought one of these a few years back. I'm probably not worth to hold it never mind own it.

 

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https://www.stewmac.com/Hardware_and_Parts/Truss_Rod_Covers/Standard_Truss_Rod_Cover_for_Guitar.html

[noisebloom]

Another vote for the Godin 5th Avenue Kingpin. I was gassing for one for a long time. Maybe should try for one now.

[DeepEnd]

Since Freeman's friend bought a 5th Avenue two weeks ago our collective opinions don't matter much at this point. FWIW, your vote is appreciated.

[crustoleum]

Try an Epiphone ES-335 Pro maybe

[Mikeo]

Try an Epiphone ES-335 Pro maybe

 

I have a Gibson ES335 and it is a great guitar, but it's not a 100% jazzbox guitar. It does a lot, from rock to blues, and you could absolutely play jazz on it too. It does have a center block, so it's not a full hollowbody.

 

A few years ago, I was looking for another archtop and bought the Gibson ES 275. It's an amazing guitar, and I almost like it better than my ES335 dot.

 

[video=youtube;nKhP47Qj8Gw]

Plugged in to a Fender amp like this it's so pretty it will bring tears to your eyes.

[video=youtube;e-eg1ddjDfU]

 

They are not inexpensive.

 

This is exactly like mine, they have a very slick neck.

 

I'm not sure if folks are aware of this, but Gibson just released the ES 235. They took the older 125 and gave it a slicker neck, and reduced the size about 10%. It has a center block I believe.

 

I have not seen one yet, and I have a ES135 that was a bargain back in the day. Mine is Black with classic 57's, but they also came with P100's picks, and some will list them as P90's which they are not.

 

I actually don't buy many guitars, but when I do I try to pick and instrument that I will like to play.

 

I was playing the Godin 5th Ave today, which has dAddario Chromes on it. As does my non cutway 5th Ave. You need to dial back on the tone control to get a warmer jazz like tone. For the price they are ok.

 

 

I was gonna actually spring for a ES175 or possibly even a carved top Gibson L4CES from the custom shop.

 

The ES 275 has been lovely.

[crustoleum]

how about an Epiphone "Century" reissue ?

 

[Freeman Keller]

Crusty, all good suggestions but my friend has purchased a nice laminated top hollow body Godin for well within his budget. He will be bugging me to build him an ES175 style guitar - right now its not on my radar.

 

Mikeo, as always I listen when you speak. I have built a couple of 335 clones, one specifically for a friend who do play jazz almost exclusively. We put a set of the SD Benedetto pickups in it and I was so impressed that I bought another set for my person jazz style guitar. Here is the 335 along side a very old one (I think its a '67)

 

 

and here is my ES-5 thing along with my lester