Pay Per Man

[StratGuy22]

Our local venues pay $800 flat fee. One place includes a room, the other 2 rooms I think.

 

The 2 venues where I provide sound for work like this.

 

Usually 2 original bands, $10 cover

Band keeps 100% of the cover

Each out of town band gets 2 hotel rooms

Each band gets a $75 tab for food or drink tickets

The bar pays me $400 (with lights) $300 without lights or $200 for SOS and a monitor for singer songwriter solo gigs. The money they pay me isn't from the door. I also get a $50 tab. I don't drink so I eat supper there the night of the gig and I'll get breakfast when I'm tearing down the next morning. I'm also their go to tech guy for any issues with their installed gear.

 

So it works out pretty good. I provide a receipt for the night to the bar.

 

The next town over pays $600/night. The city 3 hours away pays between $400 - $600.

[sventvkg]

I've had plenty of venue try this on me and in scenes I played in. I never caved to it. All I had to do was explain that I own all the gear, book the band, hire all the players, and run it like a business. Ask the owner/manager if all his employees get the same pay. That ends the issue quickly.

[senorblues]

That's an answer to a different question. First off, I'm finding that a lot of venues here have someone booking bands who just got out of HS. Hard to tell how hard and fast the rules were for who to hire and for how much. I'd like to be able to make my case directly to the venue owner, but often I can't get access to them. In any event, you're addressing an issue which I would have thought was none of their business - how to divide up the agreed upon amount. I do agree that your point addresses the concept that this is work, not just a chance to get out of the garage and play for your friends.

[Axisplayer]

This area must be the oddball. We think of it as a tiered bar system. We have what we call dive bars and good places, and all shows are a standard four hour night. The dives take anything from solo to 4-5 piece bands. They hold maybe 40-50 customers. Pay is usually around $3-400 a night for the band regardless of pieces. A good band makes that or a little more if they routinely draw well. A bad band might only get $2-300 there. Now the good places are a step up. Most pay $6-800 a night, and some a decent bit better if you can fill it regularly. These places hold 150-200 customers. The last band I worked with regularly, I was their entire tech crew-audio and lights. We made $1100+ regularly (more for non-club gigs.) It was a five piece plus me. I made $300 a night, and they split the rest whether it paid more or less. My fee never varied, theirs did. Understand that around here, thats it. No rooms, no meals, no PA furnished. You bring in lights and PA to an empty stage, and you go home, not stay in a room. Good bands around here will routinely make that sort of money. Bad bands are everywhere and play for anything from free on up. I can't remember walking out of the house to be a musician for under $100 a night, or as a BE for less than $300 (including my PA/light system to get that.) I have a friend that plays solo acoustic country music, and plays the bass with feet on midi pedal. He brings in a really nice PA system for a solo guy, has steady draw that can fill the places, and earns around $5-750 a night for a 3 hour show. He wouldn't walk out the door for $200, but he counts on it as a living, and he sells a lot of beer for them. Most nights he comes on for a few hours before a band starts at 9pm. Lots of nights, the band shows up to a packed club with him on stage, and by the time the band plays, the place is almost empty.

[Vito Corleone]

 

#30.1

 

senorblues commented

 

 

 

That's an answer to a different question. First off, I'm finding that a lot of venues here have someone booking bands who just got out of HS. Hard to tell how hard and fast the rules were for who to hire and for how much. I'd like to be able to make my case directly to the venue owner, but often I can't get access to them. In any event, you're addressing an issue which I would have thought was none of their business - how to divide up the agreed upon amount. I do agree that your point addresses the concept that this is work, not just a chance to get out of the garage and play for your friends.

 

Seems that if one is asking the venue to pay "per man", then you have now made it their business how you divide it up. If the pitch is "we're a five piece rather than a 4 piece so we need $500 rather than $400" then you've now included them in your business of how you split it up.

 

[senorblues]

My original post noted that some venues think this way. I agree that the quality of the music and expectations of a draw should be the determining factors, along with the capacity of the venue. What I've also noted is that because so many small venues have such a low budget, it forces musicians to often think in terms of minimum pay to get them to leave the house. That's a choice each individual has to make and all I'm saying is that some venues have recognized that and tried to anticipate what they can pay you to get you to take the gig. It's obviously why so many small venues are hiring solos and duos.

[Vito Corleone]

I find that, at least around here anyway, places that care enough about the quality of their venue --- good food, good booze, good atmosphere --- that quality of music is at least as important to them as draw, are usually venues where solos or duos make more sense. Usually soft jazz or light acoustic music. Full bands are more often at the dive-ier joints that care less about the quality of the music.

 

But I don't get out much these days.

 

Interesting surprise I had recently though: Wife and I did a "date night" thing a couple of weeks ago where we booked a room at a local casino. Week night. Stop at one of the casino bars on the way back up to the room after dinner and they have a 4 piece jazz band playing. Guys all in their 20s playing jazz originals. They are touring the west coast and were in Reno for a couple of nights on their way up to Oregon next. I tip them $10 in exchange for one of their CDs. Pretty good stuff. Maybe 15 people in the bar, but kudos to the casino for doing live jazz --- and not soft Kenny G stuff either. SERIOUS jazz --- and nice to see young kids playing real music and trying to make a go of it.

 

I can't imagine the venue paid them much and they would have been lucky to cover the cost of the band selling drinks. But nice to see someone cares more about quality and atmosphere than just selling booze.

[senorblues]

I've wondered about the economics of getting paid for touring for low fees supplemented with CD sales. The out front cost is not small, but if you're committed to it, I suppose you could greatly enhance your "tips" revenue.

 

Just booked a venue which is now booking for the offseason, so the fee structure currently only supports solos and duos, and no they don't pay the same.

[Vito Corleone]

The way I see CD sales going at these sorts of gigs---and how these kids were handling it---is that the CD is given as a freebie in exchange for a tip. They don't put a set amount on it. Probably hoping they will get at least get $5 per (are people so rude as to only tip a buck and take a CD with them? Some probably are) and then they at least get the music out there.

 

Recorded music has so little value these days.

 

 

[senorblues]

I don't know what it costs start to finish to make one, but a lot of local and semi-local groups are doing it. I've never seen the giveaway model you describe. Economies of scale could work for you . . . I guess.

[Vito Corleone]

Part of the reason they can give them away is that it is so cheap to make your own CDs these days. DIY at a home studio can cost next to nothing and replication costs are very cheap as well. You can get 500 CDs in cardboard sleeves for $350.

[capitalist]

I am almost ashamed to tell you guys that our cover band makes $1400 - $1800 for a bar gig. That's after we pay for sound/P.A. I believe the gigs and money are out there in most decent sized cities. Get the right mix of music and good things can happen!

[daddymack]

don't be ashamed...just tell me what city you are in! Bars in LA don't pay squat.

[Vito Corleone]

I am almost ashamed to tell you guys that our cover band makes $1400 - $1800 for a bar gig. That's after we pay for sound/P.A. I believe the gigs and money are out there in most decent sized cities. Get the right mix of music and good things can happen!

 

Never be ashamed about being good at what you do and being well paid for it.

[TrickyBoy]

Wait.... I just read this thread. A club says "I pay $x per member", I say bye bye. We provide entertainment for the night. I'll put my dopey 4-piece, drums, bass, guitar, 3 vocals up against a 9-piece horn band and feel confident that we'll entertain the crowd equally as well if not better. For that we deserve commensurate pay.

 

That may come off arrogant, but come on. My "day job" is in sales, and I don't sell "by the hour". I sell for the result. Selling your band is no different.

[Pat'sStrat]

DM is right. When I lived in LA, we would see some great band with a 5 dollar cover charge in a near-empty bar in Santa Monica or the Valley somewhere, and then two weeks later they'd turn up on the Tonight show, only to be back in the same crap bar the next week playing for a 5 dollar cover.

 

I have had experience playing in lots of cities. Portland, Seattle, Boise, LA, San Diego, all of them mostly have clubs that either pay a minimum (300 or 400 dollars) versus the door, or door only. And God help you if you don't bring your own door guy. In Portland, the first time in a club we pulled in almost a grand at the door and sold another 300 or so in CDs. They booked us back. The last time we went, the door girl, who was new, handed us the pay envelope with 300 dollars and told us "sorry, we didn't crack the nut" even though I knew we flipped the room at least twice. Come to find out later as we were loading out and talking to some customers, all of them were perplexed. We heard "Cover? We didn't pay a cover. There was no one at the door when we came in" from several of them. She was either out smoking or on the dance floor dancing half the time.

 

Nor did they charge regulars, pool players, or "people who just wanted to sit at the bar." We never went back.

[Pat'sStrat]

Wait.... I just read this thread. A club says "I pay $x per member", I say bye bye. We provide entertainment for the night. I'll put my dopey 4-piece, drums, bass, guitar, 3 vocals up against a 9-piece horn band and feel confident that we'll entertain the crowd equally as well if not better. For that we deserve commensurate pay.

 

That may come off arrogant, but come on. My "day job" is in sales, and I don't sell "by the hour". I sell for the result. Selling your band is no different.

 

 

There is a three piece band here that is really entertaining and plays an eclectic mix of stuff (old Beatles to Jay Z) and they pack every place they play. They often get an extra hundred or two from the venue owner. If you're a good band, it doesn't matter how many guys you have. And if you aren't a good band, it doesn't matter how many guys you have.

[TIMKEYS]

I think it boils down to are you doing it for the money or the music or a little of both. Pro track singers make the money here. Not much in expenses, and a voice and persona that can carry the room. They are past the point in popularity where they need a band.

[senorblues]

I reread my original post and realized that in my experience, the premise only applies to small venues that are trying to figure out whether or not they can hire a solo/duo or a band (trio+). Where I live, its not uncommon to hire a solo during the off season, then expand to a trio or larger when the tourists show up. That model most definitely considers the number of musicians . . . unless of course guys in a band are willing to play for solo/duo pay. Sadly, some are.

[capitalist]

Thanks G! I believe most of the bar/restaurants we frequent have a $10.00 cover charge. We usually have some weird agreement where we get a % of the door after a certain time or a minimum threshold.

[capitalist]

We are fortunate in that we have a core of about 15-25 middle age folks that show up at most gigs. Most are professionals and consume a lot of alcohol. (They would consume more it the bar owners would hire more staff.) We played a couple of years ago on NYE and our crowd drank ALL of the vodka in their inventory that evening. We warned them, but they did not stock enough.

[Pat'sStrat]

I play a Farmer's Market here solo. On the Saturday market, it's at a location where they have their booths set up year round, plus a stage. They pay 150 plus they put tip jars on all the tables in the music areas, and some of the vendors have them just for the musicians. It is not uncommon to make 275-300 dollars for the gig. On Wednesdays, they have the market downtown, and musicians play on a street corner. It's a shorter gig and pays only $100, but you can easily make another hundred in tips. And I see guys bringing in 4 piece bands to play these gigs for not a penny more than a solo makes.

 

WTF?

[senorblues]

My first solo gig was at a nice restaurant in a small town. The week before, I thought I'd go check out the style and quality of the music that would tell me what the standards were for the room. Surprised to see a four piece - piano, female vocals, guitar, and six-string bass. I was getting paid $100 for two hours. If the server/booker is to be believed, so were they.

[JazzMastaJim]

Every place that I've played here in the Delaware Valley pays one amount for the band as a whole, not per musician -- or not specifically, anyway. I do have a kind of funny story that's related, though...

 

A couple days before our five-piece band was scheduled to play a regular monthly gig at a local venue, something came up that prevented one of the two guitarists from playing. We decided to cut the songs that we couldn't do without him and play the gig anyway, without mentioning to anyone that we were missing a guy (while splitting the money four ways instead of five).

 

Just as we were getting on stage, the club owner came up to us looking agitated, and said, "Aren't there four of you? I only see three; where's the fourth guy? I'm paying for four!"

 

"Here he comes now," I replied, "he was just finishing his fries." And at that moment, the "missing" member walked past the club owner and picked up his bass.

 

As the obviously relieved club owner turned away and headed back into the restaurant, we all looked at each other with big grins on our faces, secure in the knowledge that he had no clue that we were short one guitarist.

[Mike M]

The last time I had to deal with "price per man" was when I was contracting marching bands for Memorial/Veterans day parades. The local VFW's would count heads!

Seriously, "my band costs this much" - should be the answer.

 

The only exception would be to take short $$ for the night, but, if xxx amount (or more) people walk through the door the pay goes up to $$$. The band would need someone "from the band" to clock the door.... (Many club owners will usually let the regular Friday/Saturday night "bar flies" enter for no cover...)

In the above scenario a band should be paid in full before the last set...(a club owner does not want to see a band pack up and leave before the night's over)

 

When I was booking my 5 piece band in clubs (we only did clubs so that prospective wedding clients could see us live) we did play for short $. We used to get $80.00pp and the leader (I) would get $100.00. I booked the club gig, brought the PA, arranged for the brides/clients to come and see us, etc.

 

Oh, by the way, that was back in the 80's to mid 90's!

 

IMO the club band situation is totally backwards these days. It started to get weird for me when local booking agents were given exclusive booking rights for certain clubs, ie; to play in a club a band had to go through the agent (who in turn took a percentage of the band's profits). What turned into practice was the club paid the agent and then the agent paid the band. Sometimes a band got paid a week later.

 

I had joined the local Musicians Union at that time and the AFM recommended that a club pay a band, and then the band pays the agent...

 

I saw the writing on the wall and started playing classical music...although I do miss the vibe of a packed dance floor.