Members Exacto Posted October 17, 2014 Author Members Share Posted October 17, 2014 Thank You for the interest in this thread Guys.. I've been to the tech and he basically says that it's got to do with resonance of the neck and it's not the frets. I'm 100% positive the string is hitting the frets but I don't know if the frets are the cause of the problem. I'm going to try and make a 240fps video with the iphone because it's pretty interesting. You pluck the string and see the string vibration get bigger then just as it's starting to fade a bit from the initial pluck you hear it hit the fret/frets and the string goes to almost twice the vibration and rattles. I've eliminated every possible cause by taking the pickups out, leaving only one tuner and adjusting the instrument for one string. With that one string the same thing happens. I'm ordering a different string set, that's going to be the final test as that's the last thing that's possible as I'm getting my Elixirs from one place and I tried to swap the D string but only for another Elixir string from (possibly) the same batch. If the non coated string behaves the same I'm out of ideas and possibly be sending this out to a tech that does stainless frets and knows his {censored} (gives a money back guarantee, so maybe he'll know what to do). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members knotty Posted October 17, 2014 Members Share Posted October 17, 2014 What about trying one of those "tone" things you clip on the headstock..? Or clip a tuner on there.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members onelife Posted October 17, 2014 Members Share Posted October 17, 2014 Is it possible that the veneer on the top of the headstock has separated a bit and is buzzing - although it certainly sounds like fret buzz. Have you tried dampening the portion of the D string between the nut and the tuning machine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wankdeplank Posted October 17, 2014 Members Share Posted October 17, 2014 "Have you tried dampening the portion of the D string between the nut and the tuning machine?" Excellent suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Exacto Posted October 17, 2014 Author Members Share Posted October 17, 2014 Of course I tried damping the string, that's one of the first things I've tried. I've actually checked the veneer when I took all of the tuners off and it seems solid aswell... Plus You cant just put a tuner on there to make it stop, it needs more damping force but a tight 2 finger grip does the job... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted October 17, 2014 Members Share Posted October 17, 2014 If the frets were pressed in it may be a loose fret buzzing. It would come from the same place though. If its in the headstock, it may be a loose tuner, gear inside or shaft. Be sure to change the whole set of strings, not a single string. You can start with the D string but do them all if the problem persists. Also if you're used to putting a single turn on the tuner when installing strings, try leaving the string longer and put more wraps on the strings, wrapping down towards the headstock. This puts more tension on the nut and headstock and may absorb this syncopated vibration that's occurring. Since the frets are higher, and the bridge is likely higher, you may want to raise the stop tail a couple of turns and see if that makes a difference. If the buzz is occurring on many frets it may be coming from the angle of the string across the saddles. Raising the bridge changes the string angle in the slot and it may not be making solid contact with the front of the saddle. Even pressing the strings down in front of the saddles above the bridge pickup may get rid of the problem by bending the string straight instead of humping over the saddle in an arch. It may be the truss too. I have a Washburn bass neck I bought new for a project. It was never mounted on a guitar. When I adjust the relief to where it should be I get a truss rod rattle in the center of the neck. Its a dud and I have to adjust it either slightly tighter or looser to eliminate it. There can be many of these little unexpected things that can happen. It comes down to trying different things to get a change. New strings is a good start. Coated strings do have a different tone and resonance then plain strings and the resonant tone of the neck and body may be changed enough to eliminate this noise. They also make other brands of coated strings you may want to try. Personally I can buy 3 sets of regular strings for one set of Elixirs and if they get grungy, you just change them more often. You can also use some WD40 and apply it to each string and let it dry. This will keep moisture from penetrating the metal and making it corrode. Gluing the frets in might be another option but that's tricky business best left to a pro. I glue all my frets in because it makes the fretted string tones more solid and you don't have problems with frets lifting. It may make a neck much more stable if done right and it would solidify the sound the neck produces. This would only be a suggestion though. I have no idea what method this guy used to install the new frets. If he recut the slots, you'd normally choose frets with thicker tangs or nip them. The fret board is like an accordion and frets are held in by pressure from the sides. If the slots were left thin and he pounded in frets with large tangs, (which is a common thing to do re-fretting so the frets stay in) it can expand the fretboard and cause it to back-bow slightly. This would then require less truss tension on the neck to give it the proper relief and the truss may rattle with less tension on it. It does depend on how thick and flexible the neck was. If it was a thin neck this effect is much more noticeable and choosing the right frets for the right job is important. As I mentioned, I recut my fret slots with a razor saw and use frets with tangs that match. I botched a few necks when I was learning how to do things right and had failure with frets that had tangs too thin and too fat. I avoid those issues now so I don't have to deal with it any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Exacto Posted October 18, 2014 Author Members Share Posted October 18, 2014 Still waiting for some new strings, as we don't have a music store in this sh##hole I don't know if I explained it wrong but the frets were not replaced , these are factory Gibson frets and the guy only levelled them. From what I can notice on the overall setup, with the neck having a slight relief in it (set up just like my LP) the bridge seems to be noticably lower to achieve the same action. The break angle on my LP was so hard the strings were touching the back of the bridge so now I wrap them around the tailpiece for a cleaner break. This does not happen on the Explorer as the bridge sits lower on the same set up. I don't know if that's because of the carved top on the LP because I think Gibson uses the same neck / body angle on all guitars (correct me if I'm wrong). I did a test, the results weren't very accurate but I painted all frets with a marker and plucked the string. What it looked to me is the string was leaving marks on the highest frets, 12th fret up, possibly the most on the 22nd ? However these were no definate marks as the rattle is too light to rub the marker off completely. I think before I do anything else I'm going to notch a steel ruler that I have (I have a small workshop so it's easy to do for me) and check the straightness of the fretboard vs the straightness of the frets. That's the only thing I haven't tried yet and maybe it will give some interesting results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted October 19, 2014 Members Share Posted October 19, 2014 Get some feeler gauges too so you know exactly how much relief you have. A ruler that measures to 1/64ths is a must too. Set the low E to 5~6/64th and the high E to 3~4/64ths above the 12th fret. If you have the issue set to specs you likely know there's a problem. A common thing leveling is the guy doing the work will concentrate more on the lower frets which are worn and less on the upper frets which aren't. This will cause a hump up top and even though the neck looks straight on the frets, the neck actually has too much forward bow when you check the fretboard relief. If that's the case, you want to take more off the top frets and tighten the truss. I actually had this issue with my Les Paul. I avoid taking too much off leveling the frets because I want to preserve the original frets as long as possible, but I started having issues with string buzzing and even with the strings set higher. I do have a tool that I use to measure these faults. I bought one of these Stu Mac nut height meters which will measure down to 1/1000 of an inch. http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Tools_by_Job/Measuring/Nut_Slotting_Gauge.html. It can also be used for string height at the 12th fret or measuring the fret height off the fretboard. I used it to compare the lower fret heights to the upper fret heights and found the frets had been leveled on an inclined angle downwards towards the first fret. Both the neck and frets were straight but the fret height ramped up towards the high frets. I took some serious meat off the upper frets last time and re-crowned the frets and my playability came back and string buzzing disappeared. Not sure this is your problem but its one of those things you don't see with the eyes very easily. Instead or making your own notched straight edge, these are only $12 and they will work much better. They have a flat bottom edge that get you better readings. http://www.ebay.com/itm/GIBSON-GUITAR-NECK-STRAIGHT-EDGE-Notched-LUTHIERS-TOOL-/260985027471?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item3cc3eb7b8f This string action gauge is only $3 and can be used to rocker frets a bit. http://www.ebay.com/itm/String-Action-Gauge-Ruler-Guide-Setup-Guitar-Measuring-Tool-Fork-Bass-Luthier-/321389435514?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item4ad44d9a7a Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Flatspotter Posted October 22, 2014 Members Share Posted October 22, 2014 My Explorer Pro had the same problem. It turned out to be the wire retainer on the bridge that holds the saddle screws in place (the ones used to adjust the saddles for intonation). I fixed it by replacing the bridge with a TonePros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted October 22, 2014 Members Share Posted October 22, 2014 My Explorer Pro had the same problem. It turned out to be the wire retainer on the bridge that holds the saddle screws in place (the ones used to adjust the saddles for intonation). . . . No idea if Exacto is still following this but that's as good an explanation as any I've seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted October 22, 2014 Members Share Posted October 22, 2014 No idea if Exacto is still following this but that's as good an explanation as any I've seen. It might be if that guitar used a vintage ABR-1 bridge . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Exacto Posted October 26, 2014 Author Members Share Posted October 26, 2014 Yes I'm following the thread and it's not the bridge - it was replaced by the previous owner plus I've been messing with the saddles myself and would catch it if the fault was there... The rattle is definately string on frets, just need to find the cause. I decided to send the guitar out to the guy that does stainless frets, he does it since 1996 and is well known for doing a good job. I hope he can find the cure as I'm pretty sure it's the frets themselves or the way they've been levelled over time. I will keep You posted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted October 26, 2014 Members Share Posted October 26, 2014 Yep - sounds like a fret dressing is in order. That's what I got from your video too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Exacto Posted November 15, 2014 Author Members Share Posted November 15, 2014 Well the guitar is back from the tech. The guy mentioned it plays so good unplugged there are a few people interested in it if I want to sell it... We'll see about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members onelife Posted November 15, 2014 Members Share Posted November 15, 2014 I had a stratocaster with a bi-flex truss rod that would rattle when the guitar vibrated at certain frequencies. It took me a long time to track it down but Fender ended up replacing the neck under warranty. Do you think it's possible your Gibson has a similar problem and when you grab the headstock you are putting enough tension on the truss rod to stop the rattle? Maybe you could try listening very closely as you lightly tap the neck in various places and try to get the rattle to happen without the strings vibrating. That is how I determined the problem with my strat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members knotty Posted November 15, 2014 Members Share Posted November 15, 2014 Well the guitar is back from the tech. Brand new stainless steel frets were installed, fretboard levelled prior to the job. And... the buzz is still there my friends. Man said it's gone but it simply isn't, he did mention the guitar resonates extremely well but when I talked to him on the phone he said it's mainly a setup and fret fault. I went for it as he said it will be gone. He did an excellent job on the frets, new nut, full setup. Guitar plays amazing, but the buzz on the open sting is killing it for me. The E string also rattles quite a bit while dropped to D but not that extremely. I will be talking to they guy about that satisfaction guaranteed. While I can't say anything negative on the work done the fact is he gave a bad diagnose, while I mentioned the resonance he said no, it will be fine. Now he's mentioning resonance himself.. I'm absolutely positive it's the guitar itself right now, meaning how the body resonates with the strings. There is no other explanation, and the fact that after you grab the headstock it stops actually proves it now. I will keep You posted but I think I might try and get rid of it. The guy mentioned it plays so good unplugged there are a few people interested in it if I want to sell it... We'll see about that. Maybe the guys who kept telling you it was the frets will stump up for the wasted money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1001gear Posted November 15, 2014 Members Share Posted November 15, 2014 Is it just that open string or any D? Try a rubber band or wrap some masking tape securely around the strings behind the nut. Gone? Nut slot. Still there? Tap on the tuners for anything loose. Do same on the bridge end. some already mentioned a problem with the saddle retainer. Check the knobs, cavity, bridge ground, strap buttons, scratch plate, in short everything. Tap, tap, tap in a process of elimination.That ventured, sounded like fret buzz, It decayed like fret buzz too. Something the string is making contact with anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kherman Posted November 15, 2014 Members Share Posted November 15, 2014 Love my Explorer Pro. I had a similar vibration. Turned out to be my toggle switch. I thought it was a upper fret or saddle as well. Nope, toggle switch. I went through and tightened the toggle as well as the pots. Also, make sure the pots aren't touching the cavity side wall in any way. There's also a bare ground wire that goes from one of the pots to one of the bridge posts. It could be that. As you mentioned, these babies are very resonant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chordite Posted November 15, 2014 Members Share Posted November 15, 2014 I's say fret because it has a "meow" buzz when plucked hard whereas a machine head or bridge thing just tends to 'rattle buzz'. Feeler gauges may be needed to compare heights, its almost like the bridge slot is a little low.I haven't read all the posts but try tuning the string up a semitone or tone and see what effect a tension increase has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members knotty Posted November 15, 2014 Members Share Posted November 15, 2014 Get a decent digital meter. Set on ohms. Crocodile clip one leg to the string above the nut. Hold the other probe against the first fret. Pluck string. You will soon see if the string is hitting that fret. Repeat for each fret. At least that way you will know if it is a fret buzz and if so, which one.Personally I still think it is a sympathetic rattle due to the holding headstock clue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Exacto Posted November 19, 2014 Author Members Share Posted November 19, 2014 Thank You guys, it would definately help if You would read at least my 1st full post. I'm 100% positive this is a fret buzz at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted November 19, 2014 Members Share Posted November 19, 2014 If you're 100% that it's a fret buzz then get the frets levelled by a good pro. Why would you give up on a guitar without doing that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members knotty Posted November 20, 2014 Members Share Posted November 20, 2014 Thank You guys, it would definately help if You would read at least my 1st full post. I'm 100% positive this is a fret buzz at this point. I just don't know what it is caused by as I think I pretty much excluded all posibilities. The guitar has a full set of new frets and a pro setup by a luthier, if he didn't fix that then I'm starting to loose hope. After a few hours on these strings the buzz is still there. Only thing left is the natural resonance of the instrument but I also don't think the instrument can be too resonant (?). On the same or even lower action and overall setup than my Les Paul this just doesn't happen (I was able to get maybe a hint of it but only on brand new string set and after a few hours it was gone). Is there a way to make completely sure it's not the trussrod resonating or something ? I wouldn't want to give up on this instrument, but I'm affraid I might have to Please see my previous post. I try to explain how to prove conclusively that it is or is not fret buzz and how to know which fret. If you choose to ignore it and keep guessing then good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members onelife Posted November 20, 2014 Members Share Posted November 20, 2014 I'm also thinking it is a truss rod issue as I had in the past with a strat. Is it possible to adjust the truss rod with all the goop that's under the cover? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Exacto Posted November 20, 2014 Author Members Share Posted November 20, 2014 Yes it adjusts without a problem it seems but it still doesn't look right to me. The nut is OK and moves freely it's the halfmoon washer that's stuck (not straight from what I can see). I might try and set it free but I don't really believe it will do anything, however I'm willing to try anything at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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