Got some ebony bridge pins for my Alvarez

[Samilyn]

 

A gold plated watch looks just like a solid gold watch. People will prefer the solid gold one. Are you really that thick that you don't get why this is? Man. Just give it up. Stick a fork in your argument because it's done.

 

 

Stick the fork up your A$$, GC. We're sick of your crap. You're the main reason that excellent, QUALIFIED luthiers have ceased to contribute to this forum.

 

In short, (at the risk of banning) eat sh** and die, you incompetent pervert.

[rhancox]

...I offered solid explanations on how an acoustic guitar functions, fascinating experiment ideas, celebrity endorsements, and relevant analogies.

 

 

But you never answered my question of whether the string vibration completely stops at the nodal points, i.e. saddle and/or nut.

[guitarcapo]

 

But you never answered my question of whether the string vibration completely stops at the nodal points, i.e. saddle and/or nut.

 

 

Let me put it this way: If you were to place a microphone anywhere on the headstock or on the strings that pass on the other side of the headstock, you could conceivably detect a sound. That would be the sound of the note the guitar is playing. Place your ear to the headstock and have someone pluck the string. If the guy is plucking the A string you will hear an A...because the vibrations are traveling up the neck wood there. You won't hear the strings on the other side of the nut sounding some other second note. The reason the "A' exists and not some other note is because the strings are not vibrating INDEPENDENTLY on the other side and causing a note for you to hear. The "A" that you hear everywhere is all the proof you need that the other side isn't vibrating in a way that you can hear (other than the A caused by the string which again you'd need a transducer or mic ON the headstock to detect). If the strings on the other side were vibrating in a way that you could hear independent of the A...it would be a different note clashing with the A. It would sound bad. Thank your stars you DON'T hear the strings vibrating on the other side. The strings on the other side of the neck vibrating become that sugar cube in the swimming pool....and it's why a note fretted close to the nut has the same tone as a string played open.

 

The scale length says that the note you hear is an A. On either side of the nut and bridge, if the string vibrated independently in a way you could hear...it would be some outrageously high notes that clash with the note you were playing. It COULD happen if the distance from the nut and tuners were outrageously long...or the distance from the bridge to the pins was outrageously long...and the strings started getting long enough to be heard in the audible range on either side of the main vibrating string....But that would make a really weird long guitar...that would sound bad because other notes would be sympathetically sounding off on either end and clashing with the note you are intending to play.

It's not something you'd want.

 

So I guess my answer is that the whole guitar plays an A and the strings past the nut and bridge vibrate to that same A along with the whole headstock (though you'd probably have to place a transducer right on the strings to hear it....and that A has the same tone regardless of what nut or bridge pins you use.

[Samilyn]

But you never answered my question of whether the string vibration completely stops at the nodal points, i.e. saddle and/or nut.

 

 

That's because he can't, m'dear. He's not a real luthier, merely a pretensive wanker....perhaps a wannabe, but certainly nothing more.

 

The only reason more members don't put him on "ignore" is because we have to see what he posts in order to dispel the myths and misinformation that he disseminates to those who ask legitimate questions.

 

We are performing a grave disservice to those of lesser knowledge if we keep letting him misinform them. It's up to us to give valid, useful information to those who ask, given that this unknowledgeable creep insists on spreading his own rhetoric that is not based on fact and physics.

[DarkHorseJ27]

Where's the proof in your theories that the sugar cube isn't detectable? Have you ever even tried the experiment? How can you say that there is a larger change in a guitar? By what amount? Is it some amount that you measured? Show us the math. If I say I taste the sugar cube how can you say I don't?

Its been shown that the human taste buds aren't that sensitive. And many people can hear the difference in bridge pins.

[Samilyn]

 

Let me put it this way: If you were to place a microphone anywhere on the headstock or on the strings that pass on the other side of the headstock, you could conceivably detect a sound. That would be the sound of the note the guitar is playing. Place your ear to the headstock and have someone pluck the string. If the guy is plucking the A string you will hear an A...because the vibrations are traveling up the neck wood there. You won't hear the strings on the other side of the nut sounding some other second note. The reason the "A' exists and not some other note is because the strings are not vibrating INDEPENDENTLY on the other side and causing a note for you to hear. The "A" that you hear everywhere is all the proof you need that the other side isn't vibrating in a way that you can hear (other than the A caused by the string which again you'd need a transducer or mic ON the headstock to detect). If the strings on the other side were vibrating in a way that you could hear independent of the A...it would be a different note clashing with the A. It would sound bad. Thank your stars you DON'T hear the strings vibrating on the other side. The strings on the other side of the neck vibrating become that sugar cube in the swimming pool....and it's why a note fretted close to the nut has the same tone as a string played open. The scale length says that the note you hear is an A. On either side of the nut and bridge, if the string vibrated independently in a way you could hear...it would be some outageously high notes that clash with the note you were playing. It COULD happen if the distance from the nut and tuners were outrageously long...or the distance from the bridge to the pins was outrageously long...But that would make a really weird long guitar...that would sound bad because other notes would be sympathetically sounding off on either end and clashing with the note you are intending to play. It's not something you'd want. So I guess my answer is that the whole guitar plays an A and the strings past the nut and bridge vibrate to that same A (though you'd probably have to place a transducer right on the strings to hear it.... and that A is the same regardless of what nut or bridge pins you use.

 

 

The quality of that "A" note will vary, given the materials used to produce the note. After all, we all know that an "A" played on a pennywhistle will sound much different to the listener than the same "A" played on a fine guitar....or flute...or piano....or oboe.....or perhaps a crying baby.

 

Any given combination of materials can produce an "A". Whether that same "A" is pleasing to the ear is up to the listener. It's obvious to most that the "A" played by the guitar or oboe will be much more pleasing than the same "A" produced by a screaming child.

 

You, sir, are obviously too retarded to grasp such a simple concept.

[totamus]

 

You have to admit I offered solid explanations on how an acoustic guitar functions, fascinating experiment ideas, celebrity endorsements, and relevant analogies.

 

 

You actually believe that everything you have to say is fascinating. You offered no explanations other than the simplistic that could be offered by any high school physics student.

 

The sad thing here is that there is no Licensing Board, no Standards of Professional Conduct, no standard Body of Knowledge, no Peer Review Group that governs those who choose to call themselves Luthiers. All you have to do is declare that you are a Luthier, and suddenly you are one - at least in your own eyes.

 

Well, at least Denny Zager has company.

 

A self inflated, ego-maniacal bully has no business on a social board.

 

Oh, and you are an ass.

[DarkHorseJ27]

Sarcasm is the last refuge when you've lost the argument I always say.

:lol:

You are usually sarcastic from the start.

[Samilyn]

You actually believe that everything you have to say is fascinating. You offered no explanations other than the simplistic that could be offered by any high school physics student. The sad thing here is that there is no Licensing Board, no Standards of Professional Conduct, no standard Body of Knowledge, no Peer Review Group that governs those who choose to call themselves Luthiers. All you have to do is declare that you are a Luthier, and suddenly you are one. Well, at least in your own eyes. Well, at least Denny Zager has company. A self inflated, ego-maniacal bully has no business on a social board. Oh, and you are an ass.

 

 

That, Good Sir, is a profound insult to some highly intelligent, long-eared, four legged beasts of burden.

 

Please do not lump these wonderful creatures in the same category as some nasty, filthy pervert who obviously spends his leisure hours sitting in front of a computer, staring at porn with his weenie in his hand.

[DarkHorseJ27]

That, Good Sir, is a profound insult to some highly intelligent, long-eared, four legged beasts of burden. Please do not lump these wonderful creatures in the same category as some nasty, filthy pervert who obviously spends his leisure hours sitting in front of a computer, staring at porn with his weenie in his hand.

 

 

He probably doesn't spend all his time in front of a computer. He needs to have some time for his boyfriend, TelesRock.

[jamesp]

One positive outcome of this thread is that I finally went and listened to Freeman's bridgepin test (really great work btw.) I could hear tonal differences, but would still have to be counted in the questioning of the methodology school. The only thing I know for sure is that that is one sweet sounding D-18, with or without pins.

[totamus]

 

You won't hear the strings on the other side of the nut sounding some other second note. The reason the "A' exists and not some other note is because the strings are not vibrating INDEPENDENTLY on the other side and causing a note for you to hear.

 

 

Classic example of high school physics. In this case your ignorance of your supposed art is appalling. I suppose you have never had a loose tuner rattle on the headstock. I doubt the loose tuner was resonant at a particular note (although they can be). No. the rattle was INDEPENDENT vibration.

 

I doubt if you are familiar with the physics of how frequencies combine, or what a standing wave is, what effect a termination has upon the standing wave,or for that matter what propagation delays in various materials are. The headstock is very complex, and the individual string lengths will indeed vibrate independently. How those vibrating strings will contribute their individual frequencies to the sound of a guitar is an equation and study that goes far beyond your simple understanding of physics.

 

Do the small segments, terminated at the tuners on one end and by the nut on the other, alter the sound, or the "tone" of the instrument? Obviously a subject of reasoned discussion. Unfortunately, such a reasoned discussion will never occur where the constant bleating of some drown out the voices of others.

 

Oh, and you are an ass.

[Samilyn]

Classic example of high school physics. In this case your ignorance of your supposed art is appalling. I suppose you have never had a loose tuner rattle on the headstock. I doubt the loose tuner was resonant at a particular note (although they can be). No. the rattle was INDEPENDENT vibration. I doubt if you are familiar with the physics of how frequencies combine, or what a standing wave is, what effect a termination has upon the standing wave,or for that matter what propagation delays in various materials are. The headstock is very complex, and the individual string lengths will indeed vibrate independently. How those vibrating strings will contribute their individual frequencies to the sound of a guitar is an equation and study that goes far beyond your simple understanding of physics. Do the small segments terminated at the tuners on one end and by the nut on the other alter the sound, or the "tone" of the instrument? Obviously a subject of reasoned discussion. Unfortunately, such a reasoned discussion will never occur where the constant bleating of some drown out the voices of others. Oh, and you are an ass.

 

 

Tot, I honestly have to say I admire your restraint. "Ass" is putting it very mildly indeed.

 

The words that one would customarily apply to such a piss-poor excuse for a man (and I use that term lightly in this case, given the hominid we're referring to) would certainly make a longshoreman blush.

[Samilyn]

He probably doesn't spend all his time in front of a computer. He needs to have some time for his boyfriend, TelesRock.

 

 

Indeed, my good friend. It's obvious that he must be a true rump ranger, given that the only women he can "get" are Asian sex-and/or-porn slaves.

 

Women? Dream on, GuitarCapo. Even the lowest 2-buck whore wouldn't touch you with a barge pole.

[Melodeous]

The facts are way over there. No. A little further. Keep going. Just keep walking in that direction until you see a line in the sand. Walk down the line being careful to walk on it and not lose your balance. Because there's Claymores on either side. Clay...mores. Anti-personnel land mines. Some say you have to step on them while others think the slightest vibration will set them off. So tread lightly, stupid! Okay, you're not stupid but you're the one looking for answers not me. Just keep going and be careful.

[EdBega]

Son of a motherless goat ... this thread's still going!

Think you're being played people.

[rhancox]

Let me put it this way: If you were to place a microphone anywhere on the headstock or on the strings that pass on the other side of the headstock, you could conceivably detect a sound. That would be the sound of the note the guitar is playing. Place your ear to the headstock and have someone pluck the string. If the guy is plucking the A string you will hear an A...because the vibrations are traveling up the neck wood there. You won't hear the strings on the other side of the nut sounding some other second note. The reason the "A' exists and not some other note is because the strings are not vibrating INDEPENDENTLY on the other side and causing a note for you to hear. The "A" that you hear everywhere is all the proof you need that the other side isn't vibrating in a way that you can hear (other than the A caused by the string which again you'd need a transducer or mic ON the headstock to detect). If the strings on the other side were vibrating in a way that you could hear independent of the A...it would be a different note clashing with the A. It would sound bad. Thank your stars you DON'T hear the strings vibrating on the other side. The strings on the other side of the neck vibrating become that sugar cube in the swimming pool....and it's why a note fretted close to the nut has the same tone as a string played open. The scale length says that the note you hear is an A. On either side of the nut and bridge, if the string vibrated independently in a way you could hear...it would be some outrageously high notes that clash with the note you were playing. It COULD happen if the distance from the nut and tuners were outrageously long...or the distance from the bridge to the pins was outrageously long...and the strings started getting long enough to be heard in the audible range on either side of the main vibrating string....But that would make a really weird long guitar...that would sound bad because other notes would be sympathetically sounding off on either end and clashing with the note you are intending to play. It's not something you'd want. So I guess my answer is that the whole guitar plays an A and the strings past the nut and bridge vibrate to that same A along with the whole headstock (though you'd probably have to place a transducer right on the strings to hear it....and that A has the same tone regardless of what nut or bridge pins you use.

 

 

That wasn't quite what I was looking for.

 

Yes, the sound, if it could be heard, that comes from those short segments of strings, between the tuners and the nut and the pins and the saddle, would be different because that segment length is different than the length between the nut and the saddle. And if it could be heard, just might clash with the sound the plucked string makes. However, here's what I'm getting at.

 

I'm not expecting there to be enough vibration to be heard, if indeed there is any at all. If there is, then my guess is that whatever material that segment of vibrating string comes in contact with may in fact have the potential to have an affect on the sound/tone of the guitar, thus leaving open the possibility for some to hear differences.

 

I've heard it said that the break angle of the strings between the pins and the saddle can have an affect. If that is possible, then something must be going on between the saddle and the pins. And if that is true, then one would expect some amount of affect from different bridge pins. The amount of affect will always be open to debate because of the varied sensitivities of the human ear.

 

While I appreciate your response, it still didn't answer my question.

[bigald18]

Sammye, Dak, Tot, thank you all for making my day. I've not been on the board much in the past few days because I'm doing some intensive fixing and packing and cleaning in my house because it goes on the market Thursday. I was drinking a cup of coffee when I came accross the last few pages of this never ending thread. That coffee is now on the couch, the floor, my keyboard, etc. Sammye you are a potty-mouth - I love it. Tot, you're beyond description. Dak, I don't know what drugs you're taking now but they do make you funny.

Anyway, I stated my opinion several pages back. I have built many guitars in my life but I don't profess to being a qualified luthier. I am of a firm belief that ALL parts of a guitar act in unison to produce a sound. That also includes the bindings. Channels are routed out for the bindings and the material of the bindings transfers vibration to the sides and back of the guitar. That's an idea for another useless thread.

What I am sure of is that Guitarcapo is an absolute narrow minded fool and a horses ass!

BigAl:lol:

[nekoro]

Indeed, my good friend. It's obvious that he must be a true rump ranger, given that the only women he can "get" are Asian sex-and/or-porn slaves. Women? Dream on, GuitarCapo. Even the lowest 2-buck whore wouldn't touch you with a barge pole.

 

 

I'm a long time lurker on these boards. I read them to get guitar information. I have noticed that every time some kind of dispute comes up, the homophobic comments start flying. You're calling some guy a "rump ranger" when he constantly changes his avatar to feature Japanese swimsuit models. How does that make sense? Is "fag" the ultimate insult? The ridiculous homophobia on these guitar boards is appalling. I don't know why I'm bothering to post this, since you will probably say I'm GuitarCapo in disguise or something. For the record, I am a woman. I'm a lesbian. I can "get" a man or a woman because I am better looking than all of you homophobes.

[DarkHorseJ27]

I'm a long time lurker on these boards. I read them to get guitar information. I have noticed that every time some kind of dispute comes up, the homophobic comments start flying. You're calling some guy a "rump ranger" when he constantly changes his avatar to feature Japanese swimsuit models. How does that make sense? Is "fag" the ultimate insult? The ridiculous homophobia on these guitar boards is appalling. I don't know why I'm bothering to post this, since you will probably say I'm GuitarCapo in disguise or something. For the record, I am a woman. I'm a lesbian. I can "get" a man or a woman because I am better looking than all of you homophobes.

 

 

I'm not a homophobe. My wife is bisexual. You shouldn't assume something about everyone based on the comments of a few.

[totamus]

I don't believe that was a genuine post. I cannot think of other times there were such remarks (won't deny it, I just can't remember any). To claim a bias based on sexual orientation looks like a rather grand red herring to me.

 

There is no better way of shiftingt focus than by making sensational, and politically correct, accusations. The focus has become on one member's bullying ways that prevents reasoned discussion of anything that he disagrees with.

 

A lurker, who is familiar with the personalities, a seeker of knowledge and an offended minority is quite convenient. What are the odds?

 

This is also called misdirection.

[outdoorgb]

.

 

 

And the ignorance continues - friggin Troll:mad:

[guitarcapo]

I'm not expecting there to be enough vibration to be heard, if indeed there is any at all. If there is, then my guess is that whatever material that segment of vibrating string comes in contact with may in fact have the potential to have an affect on the sound/tone of the guitar, thus leaving open the possibility for some to hear differences.

There isn't. You're right not to expect any. I can't answer your question any better because you are asking me to explain a phenomenon uyou are constructing in your head that just doesn't happen.
The neck does vibrate. No doubt about it. But the nut and strings after the nut and tuners are just going along for the ride and make about as much difference as taping a few coins there or tossing a sugar cube in the swimming pool. Sorry I'm such a cork-sniffer's nightmare.
You really don't have to take my word for it. Do a few practical blind listening tests for your self. Just make damn sure you have all you controls in place and aren't creating error in your testing procedures.

You can't just take two guitars of the exact same model and swap out one component and assume that if they sound different that that one component is the cause. That's because all acoustic guitars sound a little different even within the same model. Same model. Consecutive serial numbers. Sound different. That's because variations in wood and building are present even within the same model. Your best testing is to use the same guitar and alter one component trying really hard to leave all other conditions the same.

If you swap out bridgepins for example...make sure you are using the same strings before and after.

After a few blind listening tests some of you might come around. If not sorry I rocked your world so much. Have a nice day.

[rhancox]

After a few blind listening tests some of you might come around.

 

 

I think Freeman's bridge pin test is a pretty good blind listening test.

 

I appreciate your answers. I've attempted to be as civil as possible during this conversation. I've been frustrated by some of the remarks made here and there, but I managed to wade through the mud.

[Misha]

Couldn't we ask a scientist to answer our qestions about bridge pins???

 

I wish we could find a physicist to do so..... Someone at the university, working in a laboratory, studying the physics of sound...