Members daklander Posted July 25, 2009 Members Share Posted July 25, 2009 You make no sense. I tell you that stuff like bridge pins don't make a difference in sound. You ask why not use cheaper ones. I say that people like the wood ones because they look better.There are plastic pins with the little faux pearl dots that look the same.You say that I should refuse to provide what the customer wants because that it's all about sound and not looks... If you hold true to your ideals.and that's some sort of hardcore position of mine that I never took.Are you not the one who has been so adamant that no pins sound different that plastic and don't affect the tone, or did I miss something? You also seem to have me advocating cheap tuners for some reason. Not at all, the reference to cheap tuners was, as explained in another of my posts, an analogy to your statement about fishing weights with the only difference the type of weight and location. The premise is the same, different mass.I do have a cool test for you all: Go get a lead weight like people use to fish with and tape it to the bridge. See if you can hear a difference in tone when you play. If things like changing the bridge pins from plastic to wood make all that tone delicious goodness, a lead weight on the bridge should do SOMETHING, right?I'm not saying better or worse....just different. It should effect things. Anyway, what's neat about the test is that it can be done quickly and easily and it negates all that string change business.Heck, if you actually hear an improvement maybe you can fine tune it by placing the lead weight in that strategic location on the bridge that maximizes tone. Maybe tape a bunch of them on there in different places. How about taping coins to the soundboard? Experiment. Start a trend. Basically you're making yourself look like an idiot attributing opinions to me that I never had. ....... Heh, I may indeed look like an idiot but then again, I'm not a luthier who apparently has more time on his hands for arguing semantics and intangibles on a web site forum than building guitars.Though you're entertaining a lot of folks you're certainly not educating them and you have yet to post those equations backing up your claims, something that would be educational. Actually, the truth is you have been adamant that bridge pins make no difference to the sound. You've driven that belief into the ground. In my opinion if you are that adamant that the pins make no difference you will not allow your customers to have any other pins installed, regardless of their reasoning, and especially since plastic pins are available that look very much the same, and you will not compromise those values you claim so adamantly and doing otherwise is hypocritical and shows a lack of integrity.I'm sure that another luthier would be more than happy to pay a referral fee to you so you would still make some money on the guitar while keeping your integrity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Krash Posted July 25, 2009 Members Share Posted July 25, 2009 The O-rings on the booster rocket failed, killing the Challenger astronauts, partially because close minded people did not want accept results that they didn't want to be true. Interestingly (or not), the O-ring failure came as no surprise to those of us who worked in petroleum storage terminals. It was not uncommon for equipment to leak only in cold weather, due to seals stiffening up at lower temps. This became more of a problem with the advent of unleaded gasoline, which attacked the older, more flexible materials such as neoprene, requiring development of more resistant, but less flexible O-rings made of buna, viton, kalrez, and various other more expensive, and less effective, seal materials. When the Challenger findings were released, we all just shrugged - how could they not have known? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members totamus Posted July 25, 2009 Members Share Posted July 25, 2009 Interestingly (or not), the O-ring failure came as no surprise to those of us who worked in petroleum storage terminals. It was not uncommon for equipment to leak only in cold weather, due to seals stiffening up at lower temps. This became more of a problem with the advent of unleaded gasoline, which attacked the older, more flexible materials such as neoprene, requiring development of more resistant, but less flexible O-rings made of buna, viton, kalrez, and various other more expensive, and less effective, seal materials. When the Challenger findings were released, we all just shrugged - how could they not have known? The Challenger disaster is now a basic staple of Organizational Behavior classes. The dynamic that allowed the disaster to happen wasn't based in science, it was in the interplay of individuals and functions. The knowledge was there, the warnings were there, but the organization was dysfunctional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DarkHorseJ27 Posted July 25, 2009 Author Members Share Posted July 25, 2009 Do try and keep up. I was being sarcastic. You stated that a sugar cube was undetectable and I just threw all your arguments back at you. You were offering an opinion on a swimming pool you never swam in/prove I can't taste it etc..... Yes, but it is safe to assume that it is below anyone's differential threshold given how small the physical change is. There is a larger physical change on a guitar when you change the bridge pins than when you throw a sugar cube in a pool. And doesn't the fact that so many people claim to here a difference and that they tend to hear the same differences indicate something to you? That perhaps just because you can't hear something doesn't mean it doesn't exist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ohioarrow Posted July 25, 2009 Members Share Posted July 25, 2009 The Challenger disaster is now a basic staple of Organizational Behavior classes. The dynamic that allowed the disaster to happen wasn't based in science, it was in the interplay of individuals and functions. The knowledge was there, the warnings were there, but the organization was dysfunctional. ... and still there. The bandaid was to impose a new layer of oversight onto the existing mess, one that takes exceptions into account. The root cause, however is alive and well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted July 25, 2009 Members Share Posted July 25, 2009 10 pages! Yes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members totamus Posted July 25, 2009 Members Share Posted July 25, 2009 ... and still there. The bandaid was to impose a new layer of oversight onto the existing mess, one that takes exceptions into account. The root cause, however is alive and well. Root Cause = Bureaucrats The moon landing was a golden time because it was run by engineering. Now NASA is layers and layers of professional bureaucrats who only know how to climb ladders and minimize career risk. Hmm, sorry for the bait, but I hope one day we aren't saying the same about health care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Misha Posted July 25, 2009 Members Share Posted July 25, 2009 Root Cause = BureaucratsThe moon landing was a golden timne because it was run by engineering. Now NASA is layers and layers of professional bureaucrats who only know how to climb ladders and minimize career risk. Hmm, sorry for the bait, but I hope one day we aren't saying the same about health care. Humm... Did you just spelled Canada and Quebec??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members totamus Posted July 25, 2009 Members Share Posted July 25, 2009 Humm... Did you just spelled Canada and Quebec??? Did I? You are in Canada - Is national Health care run by layers of bureaucrats instead of Doctors? Has its effectiveness been ruined by this? Seriously, I would like to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Misha Posted July 25, 2009 Members Share Posted July 25, 2009 Let's just say that our public system is far from perfect. It has to do with bureaucrats, yes. Some people wait for a heart surgery more than 6 months. For a knee or a shoulder: you can wait for two years if it's not "urgent". My brother is on a waiting list to see the specialist for his shoulder. He's been waiting for 7 months and have an appointment in august. He's been told: you're lucky because you are on a priority list... Your case is serious! (He will need a surgery). At the clinic, I waited for ~ 6 hours a couple of weeks ago just to see the doctor and get antibiotics. A couple of years ago, I had fibromas and waited for over a month before I saw a specialist. She returned me at home telling me it had nothing to do with my pain. (One was the size of an orange!) I went to the hospital at the emergency room a couple of weeks later and the doctor sent me home again- in the middle of the night. He told me that a nurse would call me at home, in the morning. The nurse called me but told me that the doctor should have asked the specialist to look at me while I was there. She told me to go back to the hospital. (I wanted to destroy the telephone...) However, this nurse got me an appointment with a specialist a few days later. The latter finally told me that I needed a surgery. I waited more than two months for the surgery... My story is a mix of ineptitude from both medical staff and bureaucrats... You dream of a free medical system??? It's not always for the best. At least, it's far from perfect... Some people die on a waiting list... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members totamus Posted July 25, 2009 Members Share Posted July 25, 2009 Let's just say that our public system is far from perfect. It has to do with bureaucrats, yes. Some people wait for a heart surgery more than 6 months. For a knee or a shoulder: you can wait for two years if it's not "urgent". My brother is on a waiting list to see the specialist for his shoulder. He's been waiting for 7 months and have an appointment in august. He's been told: you're lucky because you are on a priority list... Your case is serious! (He will need a surgery). At the clinic, I waited for ~ 6 hours a couple of weeks ago just to see the doctor and get antibiotics. I had fibromas and waited for over a month before I saw a specialist. She returned me at home telling me it had nothing to do with my pain. (One was the size of an orange!) I went to the hospital at the emergency room a couple of weeks later and the doctor sent me home again- in the middle of the night. He told me that a nurse would call me at home, in the morning. The nurse called me but told me that the doctor should have asked the specialist to look at me while I was there. She told me to go back to the hospital. (I wanted to destroy the telephone...) However, this nurse got me an appointment with a specialist a few days later. The latter finally told me that I needed a surgery. I waited more than two months for the surgery...My story is a mix of ineptitude from both medical staff and bureaucrats... You dream of a free medical system??? It's not always for the best. At least, it's far from perfect...Some people dye on a waiting list... Thanks, I suspected that was the case, but wasn't sure. Here in the US, anything that becomes run by the government turns into a massive bureaucracy that cannot get anything done. Any encroachment of the government into personal affairs scares the crap out of me. Every state here has a "department of motor vehicles", although every state doesn't have the exact same name. It sends chills down my spine to think of even going there. It is all red tape, forms, delays, and a complete lack of any urgency at all. I shudder to think of health care run in the same fashion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Misha Posted July 25, 2009 Members Share Posted July 25, 2009 "Free" has a price, here, in Canada! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members knockwood Posted July 25, 2009 Members Share Posted July 25, 2009 An excellent bit of strategery begins to emerge: To head off a flame war on the topic of bridge pins, let's steer things toward a less combustible debate over healthcare... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Misha Posted July 25, 2009 Members Share Posted July 25, 2009 An excellent bit of strategery begins to emerge: To head off a flame war on the topic of bridge pins, let's steer things toward a less combustible debate over healthcare... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members outdoorgb Posted July 26, 2009 Members Share Posted July 26, 2009 10 pages. Good call...Page one and early too...you win the prize...a mixed set of bridge pins, plastic, bone, ebony, brass, corian, and a new unknown substance... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Melodeous Posted July 26, 2009 Members Share Posted July 26, 2009 The Challenger disaster is now a basic staple of Organizational Behavior classes. The dynamic that allowed the disaster to happen wasn't based in science, it was in the interplay of individuals and functions. The knowledge was there, the warnings were there, but the organization was dysfunctional. Maintenance Human Factors. Bah! Gremlins. It was gremlins I tell you. What's this thread about, mostly? We got pins, shrinking packings, and problems with health care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted July 26, 2009 Members Share Posted July 26, 2009 I liked the part about pig sculpture the best. You don't see them complaining about bridge pins or health care. They just wallow around in their own filth. We could learn a lot from pigs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members totamus Posted July 26, 2009 Members Share Posted July 26, 2009 About? This thread is like the Seinfeld show. Its not about anything, but somewhat entertaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Melodeous Posted July 26, 2009 Members Share Posted July 26, 2009 About? This thread is like the Seinfeld show. Its not about anything, but somewhat entertaining. Oh. Pressure relief valve, aka pop-off valve. Buddy riding with me yesterday would not put his seat belt on. I get pulled over and he gets a $100.00 ticket, $150 with court costs. He blames me for having my rear passenger window down. He says the cop wouldn't have seen him if the window was up. Hmm. He's serious. He's just another example of people these days who won't man up for their own mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Michael Martin Posted July 26, 2009 Members Share Posted July 26, 2009 Well, we gotta break 200 posts...we're so close. Back to bridge pins: I was a total skeptic before I actually tried swapping out brass for plastic. I also thought it was crazy that there could be differences in tone among solid-body electric guitars with bodies made of different woods. This I have not tested myself, but my guitar-god friend Andy says it's true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members totamus Posted July 26, 2009 Members Share Posted July 26, 2009 no problem this thread is never going to end. It is too tempting. Of course if Melodeus would have kept his window up, the thread would have never started Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members totamus Posted July 26, 2009 Members Share Posted July 26, 2009 Oh, hey I think you are right about using different colored capos to give the guitar different voicings. I tried painting a couple and I noticed the difference right away. I am going to start keeping them handy for different parts of the set. Thanks for the tip! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted July 26, 2009 Members Share Posted July 26, 2009 Why do electric guitars cost so much? They're basically a slab of wood and some pickups, right? A slab of wood costs about $5. Are pickups really that expensive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FlyingPancreas Posted July 26, 2009 Members Share Posted July 26, 2009 no problem this thread is never going to end. yes it is because i am ignoring this thread la la la LA LA LA going to my shiny place la la Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gthom Posted July 26, 2009 Members Share Posted July 26, 2009 Oh, hey I think you are right about using different colored capos to give the guitar different voicings. I tried painting a couple and I noticed the difference right away. I am going to start keeping them handy for different parts of the set. Thanks for the tip!I've been gluing coins to my capos for years, I never thought about painting them. I think that elusive tone I've been getting is finally in sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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