In Memorium To The Little Ones.....

[FretFiend.]

 

Originally Posted by 62rat

I was in a tractor ripping a peanut field when the report of the shooting came on the radio. I was a police officer and firefighter for 28 years and experienced many horrific situations but could not imagine dealing with an event of that magnitude. I have a 6 year old granddaughter and I just became overwhelmed with sadness. I had to stop the tractor because I could not see where I was going. I'm afraid that this society has gone over the edge. I'm 67 years old and can remember when this country was a very different place. I don't think we will ever find our way back there. I can only send love and prayers to the families of the victims. I'm starting to hope that the Mayans were right.

 

This atrocity, horrific as it is, is not the first, nor will it be the last. Evil has been with us since civilization began. But so has good.

If it weren't for those like you, as a police officer, who resist evil, it would rule the world. Don't give up.

[FretFiend.]

 

Originally Posted by The Lou-Dog

Just want to step into the thread for a second....

The other forums are full of hostility and blazing arguments, whereas this thread has only had empathy and beautiful sentiment.

Good job guys.

 

I gather, sadly, that you haven't read the thread in its entirety.

[kwakatak]

This isn't solely a gun issue. It's a breakdown in our mental health care system. This kid reportedly had "issues" and the term "asperger's" was used, indicating that he had some sort of intellecutal disability. Reputedly, this kid's parents weren't together anymore and he was living with the mother who was pushing to get him to go to college. Looking at that situation, it seems like he should have been in some sort of assited living facility- but those places can be expensive.

Truth be told, I've been avoiding immersing myself in the details. I have quite a bit on my plate and talking about guitars is my escape. Suffice it two say I can see both sides: I have a kindergartner who is the light of my life and an 8 year old with autism who we've centered our lives around and are undergoing a trying time as we try to find an adequate support system for our entire family. You wouldn't believe how hard it is to get services sometimes. Meanwhile, I've watch in horror as my older son has hurt himself because we just weren't fast enough or aware enough to interject in time. We actually did have him institutionalized briefly and believe it or not but it made things worse. Suffice it to say there's a lot of burnout and turnover of staff in such places because the pay sucks and everybody in the field wants to do something else.

As for the gun thing, I don't have any and based on my older son's issues I would never keep one just for safety's sake. I haven't fired one in 20+ years and I think those who

stockpile arms have a special kind of insanity as well. Everybody knows you need Holy water to fend off the zombie apocalypse anyway....

Sorry, that's my defense mechanism of applying humor in a tense situation. What's really important is that we use such a tragedy to reinforce our own familial relationships. I make it a point to hug and tickle my kids as much as i do discipline them.

[Bobby1Note]

I agree that this is not solely a gun issue, but let's face it, the remarkably easy access to guns is a MAJOR issue. What I'm seeing now, is the willingness of responsible gun-owners to get together and tackle this problem,,,,to be part of the solution. This is not a political issue,,, it's a social issue, and to do nothing, would be the biggest tragedy of all. I'd imagine that all of these social issues will be looked at over the next while. A dialogue MUST begin, and effective measures put in place, so that we never again relive this horror. We can't just shrug our shoulders and say "Oh well, that's how it is now". This culture of violence must be examined, including mental health issues and the entertainment industry.

We are SOOOO {censored}ed up here in North America;,,,,, consider this for a moment; if you watch a movie, and you see a bare female breast, you'll see a warning on the screen that you may see "nudity", like it's sooooo shocking, you must be warned. Heaven forbid that you might see a mother breast-feeding her infant,,,, the most natural process on this planet. In the meantime, you can watch a show that's about serial killers and psychopaths, and that's just fine,,,, prime-time "entertainment". What the hell is wrong with us???????????? I can not sit through an episode of a show like "Criminal Minds". Each episode feels the need to take it to a new level of shock and horror, and I for one, will NOT support that kind of thing. This insanity must be addressed, and I feel that people of all political leanings, are going to stick together to get this done. The problem is huge, and the issues must be tackled one-by-one. We can do this, if we're willing to be part of the solution. Complacency is no longer something we can afford.

[Bad Robot]

It is terrible. Sadly, I feel kind of numb to this stuff. It's happened way too often, and it will happen again. I cannot imagine what those kids and their families are going through, and I am sure that all of the cameras and talking heads on the ground don't help. I had CNN on the other day, and as soon as I heard 'CONTINUING COVERAGE' I had to turn the TV off. Vultures.

[garthman]

 

Originally Posted by Bobby1Note

I agree that this is not solely a gun issue, but let's face it, the remarkably easy access to guns is a MAJOR issue. What I'm seeing now, is the willingness of responsible gun-owners to get together and tackle this problem,,,,to be part of the solution. This is not a political issue,,, it's a social issue, and to do nothing, would be the biggest tragedy of all. I'd imagine that all of these social issues will be looked at over the next while. A dialogue MUST begin, and effective measures put in place, so that we never again relive this horror. We can't just shrug our shoulders and say "Oh well, that's how it is now". This culture of violence must be examined, including mental health issues and the entertainment industry.

We are SOOOO {censored}ed up here in North America;,,,,, consider this for a moment; if you watch a movie, and you see a bare female breast, you'll see a warning on the screen that you may see "nudity", like it's sooooo shocking, you must be warned. Heaven forbid that you might see a mother breast-feeding her infant,,,, the most natural process on this planet. In the meantime, you can watch a show that's about serial killers and psychopaths, and that's just fine,,,, prime-time "entertainment". What the hell is wrong with us???????????? I can not sit through an episode of a show like "Criminal Minds". Each episode feels the need to take it to a new level of shock and horror, and I for one, will NOT support that kind of thing. This insanity must be addressed, and I feel that people of all political leanings, are going to stick together to get this done. The problem is huge, and the issues must be tackled one-by-one. We can do this, if we're willing to be part of the solution. Complacency is no longer something we can afford.

 

Yes. Yes to all of this.

[kujozilla]

 

Originally Posted by Bobby1Note

I agree that this is not solely a gun issue, but let's face it, the remarkably easy access to guns is a MAJOR issue. What I'm seeing now, is the willingness of responsible gun-owners to get together and tackle this problem,,,,to be part of the solution. This is not a political issue,,, it's a social issue, and to do nothing, would be the biggest tragedy of all. I'd imagine that all of these social issues will be looked at over the next while. A dialogue MUST begin, and effective measures put in place, so that we never again relive this horror. We can't just shrug our shoulders and say "Oh well, that's how it is now". This culture of violence must be examined, including mental health issues and the entertainment industry.

We are SOOOO {censored}ed up here in North America;,,,,, consider this for a moment; if you watch a movie, and you see a bare female breast, you'll see a warning on the screen that you may see "nudity", like it's sooooo shocking, you must be warned. Heaven forbid that you might see a mother breast-feeding her infant,,,, the most natural process on this planet. In the meantime, you can watch a show that's about serial killers and psychopaths, and that's just fine,,,, prime-time "entertainment". What the hell is wrong with us???????????? I can not sit through an episode of a show like "Criminal Minds". Each episode feels the need to take it to a new level of shock and horror, and I for one, will NOT support that kind of thing. This insanity must be addressed, and I feel that people of all political leanings, are going to stick together to get this done. The problem is huge, and the issues must be tackled one-by-one. We can do this, if we're willing to be part of the solution. Complacency is no longer something we can afford.

 

The things people label as problems vary. The problem I see the most is the US is so far gone from the intentions of our founding fathers we won't ever find our way back. The fact is gun control was never intended by them, but neither was censorship. I know from the outside in people think we in America are gun carrying, cheeseburger eating, SUV drivers. We're not. I know TAH is liberal. Fret is conservative.

The fact is gun control is something that, for better or worse, has no real place in the United States on the scale some people would like it to. I know it is hard to remember at times, but this country was built by a group of people who kicked out the largest empire of their time. Our founding fathers didn't want us to have guns for hunting, self defense, or zombie apocalypses. They wanted us to be able to stand up and rebel against our government should that time ever come.

In other countries you learn the history of your country. In USA we are taught ours. The fact is that the things you guys across our borders or across the pond see you don't have a full grasp on. Our government isn't SUPPOSED to be able to control these facets of our society as a country. The regulations that are being discussed here are a state level proposal at best, and even then terribly hard to find constitutional.

The fact I guess I'm trying to explain is that in USA the only time your freedoms are supposed to be regulated is when they begin to infringe on others' freedoms. Slavery is a good example. I know it is easy to argue that this young man's right to bare arms infringed on all those peoples' right to life, liberty, and happiness. If you want to make that argument then you are absolutely correct in that analysis. The only problem with that argument is then you are saying the gun is to blame. We as a society have to stop blaming objects. There is a severe problem with objects; they will always be here. The other issue is the law/regulations only apply to those who are lawful and mindful of said regulations.

I know everything I'm saying is just gonna be chalked up as some young dude rambling on about stuff he doesn't understand, and that is fine. The only problem is any laws, regulations, or amendments made now effect my generation the most. That is why I am informed. I don't care who is right and who is wrong. I only care about what was intended. I have a lot of faith in the men that built this country, and I like to think we would someday stop and remember why they put all these freedoms here. I guess everyone has their own pipe-dreams...

[Bobby1Note]

Kujozilla,

Don't buy into the bull{censored} arguments. These guys use all the "right" buzzwords, and we're all living with the horrors of that mentality. Don't buy it,,,,, question it.

We are not living in 1776,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, 236 years have passed by. Do you for one second believe that "forefathers" and "founding fathers" would have nodded in approval of a society that allows/permits mass murders of American infants, as the price for being part of a "free" society?????

This is a new era,,, with new, never-imagined horrors. It's a problems that needs a modern solution. This is not "freedom"? It's out-of-control madness. We will find a solution to this problem. Believe in it,,,, want it to the core of your soul,,,, and it will happen. We can MAKE it happen.

[Bobby1Note]

Kujozilla,

Don't buy into the bull{censored} arguments. These guys use all the "right" buzzwords, and we're all living with the horrors of that mentality. Don't buy it,,,,, question it.

We are not living in 1776,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, 236 years have passed by. Do you for one second believe that "forefathers" and "founding fathers" would have nodded in approval of a society that allows/permits mass murders of American infants, as the price for being part of a "free" society?????

This is a new era,,, with new, never-imagined horrors. It's a problems that needs a modern solution. This is not "freedom"? It's out-of-control madness. We will find a solution to this problem. Believe in it,,,, want it to the core of your soul,,,, and it will happen. We can MAKE it happen.

[Terry Allan Hall]

 

Originally Posted by kujozilla

The things people label as problems vary. The problem I see the most is the US is so far gone from the intentions of our founding fathers we won't ever find our way back. The fact is gun control was never intended by them, but neither was censorship. I know from the outside in people think we in America are gun carrying, cheeseburger eating, SUV drivers. We're not. I know TAH is liberal. Fret is conservative.

The fact is gun control is something that, for better or worse, has no real place in the United States on the scale some people would like it to. I know it is hard to remember at times, but this country was built by a group of people who kicked out the largest empire of their time. Our founding fathers didn't want us to have guns for hunting, self defense, or zombie apocalypses. They wanted us to be able to stand up and rebel against our government should that time ever come.

In other countries you learn the history of your country. In USA we are taught ours. The fact is that the things you guys across our borders or across the pond see you don't have a full grasp on. Our government isn't SUPPOSED to be able to control these facets of our society as a country. The regulations that are being discussed here are a state level proposal at best, and even then terribly hard to find constitutional.

The fact I guess I'm trying to explain is that in USA the only time your freedoms are supposed to be regulated is when they begin to infringe on others' freedoms. Slavery is a good example. I know it is easy to argue that this young man's right to bare arms infringed on all those peoples' right to life, liberty, and happiness. If you want to make that argument then you are absolutely correct in that analysis. The only problem with that argument is then you are saying the gun is to blame. We as a society have to stop blaming objects. There is a severe problem with objects; they will always be here. The other issue is the law/regulations only apply to those who are lawful and mindful of said regulations.

I know everything I'm saying is just gonna be chalked up as some young dude rambling on about stuff he doesn't understand, and that is fine. The only problem is any laws, regulations, or amendments made now effect my generation the most. That is why I am informed. I don't care who is right and who is wrong. I only care about what was intended. I have a lot of faith in the men that built this country, and I like to think we would someday stop and remember why they put all these freedoms here. I guess everyone has their own pipe-dreams...

 

Actually, I'm not even slightly liberal, rather pretty conservative, just not a neo-con. FF, and others, I won't define, as they're quite capable of defining themselves.

Bobby1note and Kwack, who's leanings I won't define, either, made some very valid posts...our entertainment is inundated with violence for violence's sake, but a little skin is unacceptable! (remember Janet Jackson's "fashion mishap" @ the Super Bowl a few years back? ) and we need to start taking mental health seriously. These tragedies must be averted.

And I agree with the spirit of your post, 'Zilla, but a few of the details I have a different perspective on. For instance, I do not believe that the 2nd Amendment is harmed in any way by outlawing private possession of nuclear bombs, Claymore mines, and high capacity semi- and fully automatic weaponry, and I don't believe our Founding Fathers would disagree on this.

In the event of an uprising, we all know where the nuclear bombs, Claymore mines, and high capacity semi- and fully automatic weaponry can be found. We just don't need them in our homes.

[FretFiend.]

 

Originally Posted by Terry Allan Hall

Actually, I'm not even slightly liberal, rather pretty conservative....

 

That's bull{censored}.

[acousticdepot]

 

Originally Posted by Terry Allan Hall

Sadly, some very good ideas to improve the situation get shouted down as restricting our 2nd Amendment rights, but there has to be an answer (or answers).

 

I have to agree with FF. The post above derailed this thread. However if you are interested in an unbiased, nonpolitical view, I read an interesting article on school shootings that seems to have come from a good amount of qualitative research by Katherine S. Newman, a Dean at John Hopkins University.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/17/opinio...html?hpt=hp_t2

[kujozilla]

Opa, your head was in the right place as far as this thread goes.

I'm sorry we screwed it up by politicizing and arguing.

[acousticdepot]

 

Originally Posted by kujozilla

Opa, your head was in the right place as far as this thread goes.

I'm sorry we screwed it up by politicizing and arguing.

 

+1

[kwakatak]

Yup. Sorry for the hijack Opa.

[Opa John]

 

Originally Posted by kujozilla

Opa, your head was in the right place as far as this thread goes.

I'm sorry we screwed it up by politicizing and arguing.

 

 

Originally Posted by acousticdepot

+1

 

Not a problem, Kujo. This certainly isn't the first time a thread has gone off track. People are just stating their opinions, although a couple of them may have stated their opinions a little stronger than necessary. Not the first time for that, either.

I happen to own guns. Three hand guns. Two revolvers and one semi-automatic S&W 40 Caliber. They're loaded and in a safe place. If some damned sicko breaks into my home, and I can get to one of my guns in time, somebody's gonna die! Nuff said.

At the same time, never once have I ever entertained the thought of going into a first grade classroom and blowing little children away. If that maniac in Newtown had not had access to guns, maybe those children would still be alive today. Or, maybe he would've resorted to other means to accomplish the deed. Who knows?.

I will say this. When it comes to guns, I see no need for the average citizen to own assault weaponry. I think we're gonna see some legislation real soon restricting the ownership of those types of guns. Actually, a total ban on those types wouldn't bother me either......but that's also a personal opinion. I have to assume that the rest of the civilized world thinks of us Americans as a bunch of "gun totin' neanderthals".

It'll be interesting to see how this all pans out. I'll even admit that I'm a conservative, and I voted Republican in the last election, but I have to agree with the president when he says "something needs to be done". I think there's something wrong with anyone who would disagree with him on that point.

[Bad Robot]

TAH seems to be a pragmatic, reasonable person....for a conservative . I use 'reasonable' in the sense of 'able to reason.' Whether one is a Marxist (I am, well, a lapsed Marxist), or a conservative, ideology is generally antithetical to reason, and this is more true the further an ideology gets from reality. Yes, something needs to be done. I have no idea what that is, but, given the politics in the US, and its culture, it will be too little and, obviously for all who have died such terrible deaths, too late.

[Bobby1Note]

I'll say it again, this is NOT about politics,,,, it's about responsible people, finding effective solutions. People on both sides of the political divide are coming together on this, and something WILL be done. Those who argue this from a political point-of-view, are now irrelevant. They're incapable of becoming part of the solution.

Hopefully, the dialogue will look at all aspects for reducing the potential for gun-violence, and nobody wants that more than responsible gun-owners. We don't want to lose our sport, but we also do NOT want to be associated with criminals and out-of-control madmen. I am 100% on favor of toughening the sentences for those who use guns (or ANY weapon) to commit a crime, and for those who sell guns to these savages, and for what??? a few extra dollars in their pocket? They're robbing us of our ability to pursue life, liberty, and happiness.

Am I willing to put up with some inconveniences or restrictions, if it's part of an effective solution??? You BET I am. There are some creative solutions out there,,,, people just have to start talking, and identify those solutions. Those who are not willing to participate in finding those solutions, are dinosaurs. They're no longer part of the game. They're redundant.

[Bad Robot]

 

Originally Posted by Bobby1Note

I'll say it again, this is NOT about politics,,,, it's about responsible people, finding effective solutions. People on both sides of the political divide are coming together on this, and something WILL be done. Those who argue this from a political point-of-view, are now irrelevant. They're incapable of becoming part of the solution.

Hopefully, the dialogue will look at all aspects for reducing the potential for gun-violence, and nobody wants that more than responsible gun-owners. We don't want to lose our sport, but we also do NOT want to be associated with criminals and out-of-control madmen. I am 100% on favor of toughening the sentences for those who use guns (or ANY weapon) to commit a crime, and for those who sell guns to these savages, and for what??? a few extra dollars in their pocket? They're robbing us of our ability to pursue life, liberty, and happiness.

Am I willing to put up with some inconveniences or restrictions, if it's part of an effective solution??? You BET I am. There are some creative solutions out there,,,, people just have to start talking, and identify those solutions. Those who are not willing to participate in finding those solutions, are dinosaurs. They're no longer part of the game. They're redundant.

 

Unfortunately, everything is about politics when it comes to legislation that will go against powerful interests.

[Terry Allan Hall]

 

Originally Posted by Bad Robot

TAH seems to be a pragmatic, reasonable person....for a conservative .

Thanks...I think!

I use 'reasonable' in the sense of 'able to reason.' Whether one is a Marxist (I am, well, a lapsed Marxist), or a conservative, ideology is generally antithetical to reason, and this is more true the further an ideology gets from reality. Yes, something needs to be done. I have no idea what that is, but, given the politics in the US, and its culture, it will be too little and, obviously for all who have died such terrible deaths, too late.

 

 

Originally Posted by Bobby1Note

I'll say it again, this is NOT about politics,,,, it's about responsible people, finding effective solutions. People on both sides of the political divide are coming together on this, and something WILL be done. Those who argue this from a political point-of-view, are now irrelevant. They're incapable of becoming part of the solution.

Hopefully, the dialogue will look at all aspects for reducing the potential for gun-violence, and nobody wants that more than responsible gun-owners. We don't want to lose our sport, but we also do NOT want to be associated with criminals and out-of-control madmen. I am 100% on favor of toughening the sentences for those who use guns (or ANY weapon) to commit a crime, and for those who sell guns to these savages, and for what??? a few extra dollars in their pocket? They're robbing us of our ability to pursue life, liberty, and happiness.

Am I willing to put up with some inconveniences or restrictions, if it's part of an effective solution??? You BET I am. There are some creative solutions out there,,,, people just have to start talking, and identify those solutions. Those who are not willing to participate in finding those solutions, are dinosaurs. They're no longer part of the game. They're redundant.

 

Agreed.

[Bobby1Note]

 

Originally Posted by Bad Robot

Unfortunately, everything is about politics when it comes to legislation that will go against powerful interests.

 

This is different BadRobot, This is not about curtailing the rights of sensible and responsible people. This will be a debate about making us safer. Yesterday, two senators with an "A" rating from the NRA, came out and said they're willing to get something done. Hell, even members of the NRA want to see something done. We're all sick of the carnage, and in the last few years, it's taken off like a rocket.

This is not going to be about some simplistic solution that merely puts a patch on the problem; this will be a debate about every aspect of violence in our lives, and what we can do to reduce it; guns will only be a part of that dialogue. We've got to identify means by which we can keep guns out of the hands of crazed lunatics. There are ways to allow responsible people to enjoy their sport; an example that comes to mind is registered gun clubs, where members can shoot to their hearts content, but at the end of the day, those semi-automatic firearms, stay at the club, under lock and key.

The manner in which we store our guns at home has to be considered as well. What kind of idiot would store a loaded gun where others could have access? That's the height of irresponsibility in my opinion. If you take on the responsibility of ownership, proper handling, storage, and safety, become part of the equation,,,period. I'll bet that more than 90% of gun owners already think this way.

As for people who feel the need to go hunting with semi-automatic firearms,,,,, are these "sportsmen"?????? Really? Do these idiots feel they have to "mow down the forest" in order to kill their game? These guys are incapable of comprehending the term "sportsman", and I steer well clear of these "macho idiots". I don't hunt anymore, but when I did, I hunted with a friend who was a true sportsman, in EVERY sense of the word. We had a rule, we shoot ONLY IF we could ensure a clean one-shot kill, and we also had a rule about shooting ONLY what we could eat,,,, no exceptions.. Period. Safety was paramount, and we developed our skills to ensure that we could accomplish our goal. Fact is, we mostly spent time together, simply for the pleasure of enjoying each others companionship; walking, and enjoying the beauty of the great outdoors.

[Bobby1Note]

Yessssss,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I KNEW this would happen. There's hope on the horizon. NRA press release.

http://www.nraila.org/news-issues/ne...sociation.aspx

[DeepEnd]

A lady from church sent this out:

 

[kujozilla]

 

Originally Posted by DeepEnd

A lady from church sent this out:

 

[Nabisco]

FretFiend, however rude he may be, is absolutely correct. This was supposed to be a memorium thread and it was hijacked by Liberals who, in their never-ending sanctimony, are incapable of seeing that their political views are just that - their political views. They instead see their own opinions as The Truth. Therefore, anyone who doesn't agree with them is some sort of retrograde hate-monger who, however inadvertantly, supports mass-murder.

Now, allow me to ask a question: Is there anyone who would have thought it a bad thing if a teacher at that school had been armed and trained in the use of his or her firearm and had killed that murderer before he could kill those kids?

A final thought. A Canadian's opinions on the United States Constitution are amusing, but irrelevant.