Why do Gibsons Cost so Much?

[daddymack]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904787404576530520471223268.html

 

they can't seem to get the Feds off their case...

[Anderton]

Regardless of what anyone thinks of Gibson, this whole thing stinks. Nothing was proven after the last raid, and Gibson has supported being environmentally sound about their choice of woods. If Gibson was raping the rainforests, that would be one thing but that's simply not the case. This is a waste of tax dollars, and I expect Gibson will be exonerated.

 

Just wait until the first rock musician is busted and has his guitar taken away for playing a vintage instrument where he can't vouch for where the nut was made. This isn't about environmentalism IMHO, this is about bureaucracy gone mad...I guess the silver lining is that it offers a career path for TSA employees who tire of their gig.

[Matximus]

Yah... I don't know. If you're trying to defend yourself from and FBI raid or whatever... some {censored} is going wrong somewhere. Love Gibson guitars. Something shady going on, though. You ain't no angel if you got government men in black pounding on your door.

[richardmac]

Believe me, the FBI, CIA, FDA, you name it, has effed up many many many times. Every government organization makes mistakes. Every human does. When my wife and I were still in our first house, a cop came banging on the door one morning at 6 am. Scared the living sh*t out of us. We answered the door and they said they got a phone call from our house that there was a big fight. We were both in our bathrobes and had obviously just woken up, and we insisted that neither of us had called. And the cop didn't believe us! But there was nothing he could do. He didn't apologize or anything. Which fit... every cop I've ever known or met has either been a really high moral standards great person, or a dirtbag bully who liked to feel superior to others. But that's another thread.

[daddymack]

The sad part is that they (the Feds) failed two years ago doing almost the same schtick...talk about your 'lawsuit guitars', eh?

The concept of protecting the environment is sound, the practice is a whole different story. Any major manufacturer knows they have to jump through the hoops, why would Gibson be suspected of not playing by the rules, when they had, in fact demonstrated they were the last time? This is our tax dollars being dumped on the fire , again...

 

or maybe it is the Democrats getting even for this? Elephants never forget...

[sventvkg]

I'll just say it. F$%^ the Feds and our corrupt Govt. They can do whatever lawless {censored} they want but will SWAT Team you for anything they want. This goes WAY ABOVE the boundries of what our founding fathers envisioned for the power of the Federal Govt. Stinks to high hell...

[Surrealistic]

 

... I think John Lennon was a worthless piece of {censored} as a person and a damn near untouchable holy Saint composer of incredible pop.

Bit harsh don't ya think? Sure, he was flawed. Aren't we all?

 

 

Who gives a {censored} of Gibson's are made by crooked bastards?

Well IF they are (which is at least unproven) then I give a {censored}, and I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one. It does seem unlikely though; they'd be pretty stupid to do something illegal knowing that they'd have little chance of getting away with it, and I don't think they're stupid.

[3shiftgtr]

Pure speculation here.....

 

A lot of times they get you for one thing when they can't get you for another. He has pissed the feds off and some folks in higher places. I have heard some rumors but judging from the way Henry does business, sounds like he pissed someone off and they are gonna get him for something.

 

Does anyone know if he ever complied when they asked for his books? I didn't really follow that story very closely.

 

I just don't think this is some kind of red tape gone wild.....I think the moral, kind, well mannered, hard working and fair Henry the J. has pissed someone off to the point that they will keep pressing a button til they get what they want out of him.

[BlueStrat]

This might have something to do with it, the CEOs douchebaggery notwithstanding:

 

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2011/08/gibson-guitar-ceo-obama-justice-department-wants-us-to-just-shut-our-doors-go-away/

 

Gibson is the only guitar company targeted by the Obama DOJ under the

Lacey Act. [ They moved from Kalamzoo, MI to Tennesee.]

 

Tennessee is a right-to-work state.

 

Fender, Taylor, Rickenbacker, Danelectro, Carvin, MusicMan, and ESP

are in California;

Spector is in New York;

Martin is in Pennsylvania;

Guild, Ovation, and Hamer are in Connecticut;

Alvarez is in Missouri;

B.C. Rich is in Kentucky;

Heritage is in Michigan;

Washburn is in Illinois.

 

All are forced-union states.

 

Peavey is another guitar and electronics company, located in the

right-to-work state of Mississippi.

 

Since 2009, Peavey has been the target of multiple lawsuits filed by

a competitor, MUSIC Group, which alleges that Peavy products fail to

meet federal safety and emissions standards.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Since 2009, Peavey has been the target of multiple lawsuits filed by a competitor, MUSIC Group, which alleges that Peavy products fail to meet federal safety and emissions standards.

 

 

And Behringer has also been the target of multiple lawsuits by Peavey. This just seems to be more a matter of two competitors going at each other and nothing really to do with the Feds and Gibson.

 

http://performermag.com/2011/05/02/peavey-electronics-corporation-fils-multiple-federal-lawsuits-against-behringer/

[michaell]

I've had many friends ( players and civilians ) forward this link to me. Surprised me they found it compelling actually. I tend to agree with 3shiftgtr and Blue Srat ......... somebody at Gibson annoyed the feds about something.

[TIMKEYS]

This is an interesting tid bit about the gibson ceo. Hmmm I am sure he made many friends in the union while he was at GM and delco.

 

http://www.gibson.com/press/press_juszkiewicz.asp

[sventvkg]

You have to remember, we do not pay our workers slave wages here, no matter how badly people complain. It's costs a lot more to make products in the US. HENCE Gibsons cost more. Why are they more than other American Maufacturers? They aren't. Look at a comparable Taylor, Guild, Martin...Similar price points.

[BlueStrat]

 

You have to remember, we do not pay our workers slave wages here, no matter how badly people complain. It's costs a lot more to make products in the US. HENCE Gibsons cost more. Why are they more than other American Maufacturers? They aren't. Look at a comparable Taylor, Guild, Martin...Similar price points.

 

Maybe, but then why can I get a USA Strat for 800 bucks when a LP costs 2000? Or a Canadian (not exactly a 3rd world country where stuff is usually MORE expensive) Seagull that plays and sounds great for 500 bucks when a Taylor costs 1800? I'll tell you why: The same reason people will pay 20k for a Harley when a 14k Kawi or Honda (both also made in the US) will be as good or better bike. It's branding and hype, pure and simple.

[Dessalines]

 

Tennessee is a right-to-work state . Fender, Taylor, Rickenbacker, Danelectro, Carvin, MusicMan, and ESP are in California; Spector is in New York; Martin is in Pennsylvania; Guild, Ovation, and Hamer are in Connecticut; Alvarez is in Missouri; B.C. Rich is in Kentucky; Heritage is in Michigan; Washburn is in Illinois. All are forced-union states . Peavey is another guitar and electronics company, located in the right-to-work state of Mississippi. Since 2009, Peavey has been the target of multiple lawsuits filed by a competitor, MUSIC Group, which alleges that Peavy products fail to meet federal safety and emissions standards.

 

 

 

 

Some things never chnage. They never change either.

[chemikool]

 

I'll just say it. F$%^ the Feds and our corrupt Govt. They can do whatever lawless {censored} they want but will SWAT Team you for anything they want. This goes WAY ABOVE the boundries of what our founding fathers envisioned for the power of the Federal Govt. Stinks to high hell...

 

Agreed 100 percent...couldn't have said it better myself.

 

This country is headed down the wrong path, and has been for a long time.

 

Who is watching the watchers?

[Scafeets]

It's an international treaty. If "little guys" like PRS, Rickenbacker, Ernie Ball, Taylor and Martin (all family-owned US business) can compete without breaking the law, then Gibson should do the same. This isn't the "Big Bad Gummint" pickin' on the little guy --it's Henry J driving the once-great Gibson further into the ground.

Here's the complete list of countries that aren't signees to the treaty: Andorra, Angola, Bahrain, Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea), Haiti, Iraq, Kiribati, Lebanon, Maldives, Marshall Islands, Micronesia (Federated States of), Nauru, South Sudan, Tajikistan, Timor-Leste, Tonga, Turkmenistan and Tuvalu. And The Faroe Islands. If you think those bastions of democracy are on the right side of this argument, I've got a Stella with a cracked neck I can sell you....

So far, all we've heard is Henry and his PR machine. According to the Financial Times, it's about ebony.

"But in an affidavit used to obtain the search warrants, US Fish and Wildlife Service agent John Rayfield said the investigation began after a shipment of Indian ebony was detained by customs officers in Dallas, Texas, in June. According to the affidavit, the ebony included in the shipment was illegal under a US law that bars the transport or sale of endangered woods and plants.

The shipment also misidentified the final destination for the woods, failing to name Gibson as the buyer."

[michaell]

 

It's an international treaty. If "little guys" like PRS, Rickenbacker, Ernie Ball, Taylor and Martin (all family-owned US business) can compete without breaking the law, then Gibson should do the same. This isn't the "Big Bad Gummint" pickin' on the little guy --it's Henry J driving the once-great Gibson further into the ground. Here's the complete list of countries that aren't signees to the treaty: Andorra, Angola, Bahrain, Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea), Haiti, Iraq, Kiribati, Lebanon, Maldives, Marshall Islands, Micronesia (Federated States of), Nauru, South Sudan, Tajikistan, Timor-Leste, Tonga, Turkmenistan and Tuvalu. And The Faroe Islands. If you think those bastions of democracy are on the right side of this argument, I've got a Stella with a cracked neck I can sell you.... So far, all we've heard is Henry and his PR machine. According to the Financial Times , it's about ebony. "But in an affidavit used to obtain the search warrants, US Fish and Wildlife Service agent John Rayfield said the investigation began after a shipment of Indian ebony was detained by customs officers in Dallas, Texas, in June. According to the affidavit, the ebony included in the shipment was illegal under a US law that bars the transport or sale of endangered woods and plants. The shipment also misidentified the final destination for the woods, failing to name Gibson as the buyer."

 

 

Informative post. Thank you!

[michael_B]

mmm hmmm, it seems all the Gibson defenders are only basing their judgments on what the Gibson PR machine is letting you know. I'm no big government fan, but I'm also not a fan of corporations not playing by the rules and getting a slap on the wrist, when a comparable violation by Bob or Jodi America would likely result in prison time and/or crushing fines. Of course the government makes mistakes...but corps do as well, and sometimes...just sometimes, they are criminals. (shocking, I know)

 

As usual, people on the internet getting half-ass information and making up their minds before they have any clue as to what is going on. The same folks keep on forwarding me all those Palin and Bachmann chain emails that claim the world is ending soon..... Critical thinking skills...out the window.

[Anderton]

To me, the issue is not about Gibson's innocence or guilt. That's for the courts to decide, not internet forums, and only after going through proper legal procedures.

 

However, I did contact two employees at Gibson who confirmed that armed agents wearing bullet-proof vests conducted the raid, and that as of now, no charges have been filed; and that in the 2009 raid, employees were questioned without being offered the opportunity to seek legal counsel.

 

Regardless of whether Gibson is in the right or the wrong, this is not the way justice should work in this country. This isn't about defending Gibson, this is about defending the principles of justice under the law.

[daddymack]

true...where is the 'due process'?

Confiscation, armed agents, WTF?

Is Gibson a terrorist organization?

 

My original point was, how much was this little episode going to cost Gibson, and therefore get passed on to consumers?

So far, 'Hank the Shank' says it cost them over a million...

 

From a more 'reputable' source:

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904787404576530520471223268.html?fb_ref=wsj_share_FB&fb_source=profile_oneline

[Brian Hulnick]

As a keen environmentalist I hope if (and only if) Gibson are proven (100%) guilty of using rare and undeclared woods for their Guitars that they are Nailed to the wall. And that goes for all musical instrument manufacturers and suppliers.

[sventvkg]

 

To me, the issue is not about Gibson's innocence or guilt. That's for the courts to decide, not internet forums, and only after going through proper legal procedures. However, I did contact two employees at Gibson who confirmed that armed agents wearing bullet-proof vests conducted the raid, and that as of now, no charges have been filed; and that in the 2009 raid, employees were questioned without being offered the opportunity to seek legal counsel. Regardless of whether Gibson is in the right or the wrong, this is not the way justice should work in this country. This isn't about defending Gibson, this is about defending the principles of justice under the law.

 

 

Correct and it frankly disturbs me that people are so ignorant of basic law as to not be concerned about this. NO CHARGES HAVE BEEN FILED. They are looking for anything they can find to charge Gibson. FEDS....Out of control. Flat out. Surprised they didn't come in Guns blazing and killing everyone. Remember Waco? Remember women and children Gunned down? Randy Weaver's Wife and kid? Should I go on? The FEDS Suck.

[Anderton]

From how I read the law (disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV), there's nothing that would prevent armed agents from pulling guitars off the wall of your local GC at gunpoint, and levying a fine of thousands of dollars per guitar if the wood source couldn't be proven. Or, hauling Chuck Surack from Sweetwater off to jail for shipping "tainted" guitar across state lines.

 

If you had said to me "Hey that's crazy, something like that would never happen..." Well, look what happened at Gibson.

 

Sure, if Gibson knowingly violated the law, hit 'em with your best LEGAL shot. It just rubs me the wrong way to see American workers treated like violent narco-terrorists who are presumed guilty until proven innocent.

[daddymack]

And that is the /dumb/sad/weird part...could the feds not have just sent a query, or some 'suits'? More and more, there seems ot be this knee-jerk reaction to the general public...these guys crash two Gibson factories, armed and wha? Are they expecting to be fired on?

In my industry, it is a combination of the FDA and U.S. Customs Service that will stop a shipment because they don't understand what the product is for...and can hold it, at your expense, for months until you can explain it to their satisfaction

At least the IRS only seizes bank accounts, garnishes wages, etc., with no due process

The public trust has got to be heading downhill pretty rapidly...mine is...

 

hmmm...just had a small earthquake... 4.2