Heh, heh...B******** gets no love from online retailer

[GuitarPlayerFL]

You can read this statement in a couple of ways, but it could also be, "We think they suck...buy from these manufacturers instead".

 

No Love for B********

[Jon Doe]

I seriously doubt that online retailers care about product quality. They care about profit margins.

[blue2blue]

This is likely to be more trade dispute than anything else, frankly.

 

I know that this retailer likes to market themselves as a cut above folks like Sam Ash, GC, and MF -- but I've got some decidedly bogus information over the phone from their sales reps on occasion. Maybe if you're the kind of customer who drops $10K at a time on the phone with them you get better informed sales reps?

[bp]

Sweetwater can choose to sell what they want to sell. If someone if giving bad info over the phone ask for a different sales associate. Once you find one you are comfortable with, stick with them.

[bp]

 

I seriously doubt that online retailers care about product quality. They care about profit margins.

 

 

They care about both. Quality products usually sell well and have less frequency with returns.

[Magpel]

Aye, and thus the great thing about online retailers. You don't waste no gas nor time to click on over to mf.

 

Sweetwater, as Blue observes, tries to position themselves as a cut above the others in terms of...in terms of...well, see there's the problem.

 

If I want service, I'll go to Alto Music where I can try stuff out and get information and, maybe, if I am real nice and it's a slow day, get some nice audition time in their Pro Audio room. If I want invasive phone calls, I'll sign up to look at some time share properties in the Orlando area.

 

The only difference I see with SW is that their prices are a little higher than the others. Generally comparable, though. As soon as I've have an overtly bad experience with an online retailer, it is not likely I'll come back, but that has not yet happened in all my dealing with MF, 123, Zzounds, etc., so for now, best price wins and nothing else matters--least of all market positioning...

[Jeff da Weasel]

If you want to know the truth, in my experience, they ALL care about quality, a lot. From a straight-up business standpoint, the less returns, the less problems, the more likely a repeat customer. So caring about quality is no exclusive to Sweetwater, nor GC, nor MF, nor any retailer. They all do care.

[Gus Lozada]

Whatever the reasons are, I lol'd

[blue2blue]

 

Sweetwater can choose to sell what they want to sell. If someone if giving bad info over the phone ask for a different sales associate. Once you find one you are comfortable with, stick with them.

 

 

I gave them a couple tries. And I may well try them again. It's not like I've put them on my do not use list, or anything.

 

It suppose it could fairly be said that my comments seem to hold them to a higher standard than outfits like Sam's, GC, and MF, where I wouldn't necessarily look for any particular expertise or product knowledge, but it is what SW markets themselves on... they really slather it on, actually, in their marketing, so, in a sense, they all but invite tougher scrutiny on that front.

 

 

As Jeff says, attention to customer care is not the exclusive domain on any single vendor -- and, of course, no vendor has a perfect record. I've received good deals from both major brick and mortar chains -- and also walked out on the lack of them at other times. And, online, vendors like MF and NewEgg have been very good to me. I've got some great deals at times.

[cooterbrown]

 

If you want to know the truth, in my experience, they ALL care about quality, a lot. From a straight-up business standpoint, the less returns, the less problems, the more likely a repeat customer. So caring about quality is no exclusive to Sweetwater, nor GC, nor MF, nor any retailer. They all do care.

 

 

That's pretty hypocritical, IMO, since all those other companies they carry make plenty of stuff in China.

Alesis has at least as high a failure rate on their Chinese gear (maybe higher) as Behringer does. Their Sumo keyboard amps had a 88% return rate, when they debuted (some chains reported 100%).

[Gus Lozada]

And that ^^^ is pretty misinformed.

 

Being manufactured in china does not equal bad quality as a rule.

And sorry, but being made in the US does not mean good quality either. Bad manufacturers exist in all countries.

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

That's a B******** Shanling compact disc player:

 

[Anderton]

 

And that ^^^ is pretty misinformed. Being manufactured in china does not equal bad quality as a rule. And sorry, but being made in the US does not mean good quality either. Bad manufacturers exist in all countries.

 

 

The thing about China is that, like China itself, the deeper you dig the more contradictions you find.

 

Without going into the social and economic reasons why, there is a definite divide between "old school" and "new school" Chinese production facilities. There are still the dirt floor/no light/OHSA nightmare factories, but also, the "let's keep our employees happy so we get minimal turnover and don't have to retrain them" factories with nice living accommodations for workers and even perqs like gyms.

 

But I also think a lot of the latter are self-motivated - i.e., "hey foreign companies, thanks for the expertise and showing us how to build cool stuff, now there's the door - and good luck competing with us!"

 

A lot of companies are hybrids anyway: Design in some countries, get selected parts made in China, assemble somewhere else, etc.

[cooterbrown]

 

And that ^^^ is pretty misinformed. Being manufactured in china does not equal bad quality as a rule. And sorry, but being made in the US does not mean good quality either. Bad manufacturers exist in all countries.

 

 

 

I really, honestly know that, Gus.

 

I was just pointing out the fact that some of those "preferred companies" make a lot of {censored} products, as well.

 

That's more than a couple times you've jumped on me for something I thought was obvious.

 

I'll try to include a "la iron

[Richard King]

I try to avoid Chinese made products whenever possible. There have just been too many cases where they are selling defective or even dangerous products. The latest is Chinese made drywall (Google it). It is being found all over Florida and is doing serious damage to the houses (and some people) where it was installed. I'm in the process of rebuilding a hurricane damaged house here and had the chance to buy some travertine floor tiles at Home Depot that would have looked quite nice in the project. I asked where the materials were sourced from and the response was China. I went elsewhere and paid $0.50 per square foot more (about $1,100 over the project) to obtain the tile from another country (Turkey). I certainly hope that I wasn't sold any Chinese drywall for the house, since I purchased my drywall materials before the problem was widely known. I just wish there were a way to do the same with electronics, but since nearly everything comes from there, there is no way to avoid Chinese electronics products.

[Gus Lozada]

 

I really, honestly know that, Gus.   I was just pointing out the fact that some of those "preferred companies" make a lot of {censored} products, as well.   That's more than a couple times you've jumped on me for something I thought was obvious.   I'll try to include a "la iron

[Billster]

 

The thing about China is that, like China itself, the deeper you dig the more contradictions you find. Without going into the social and economic reasons why, there is a definite divide between "old school" and "new school" Chinese production facilities. There are still the dirt floor/no light/OHSA nightmare factories, but also, the "let's keep our employees happy so we get minimal turnover and don't have to retrain them" factories with nice living accommodations for workers and even perqs like gyms. But I also think a lot of the latter are self-motivated - i.e., "hey foreign companies, thanks for the expertise and showing us how to build cool stuff, now there's the door - and good luck competing with us!" A lot of companies are hybrids anyway: Design in some countries, get selected parts made in China, assemble somewhere else, etc.

 

 

I was discussing this on MP with regard to Chinese made guitars. There was a time when "Made in Japan" meant "cheap crap", but then Japan upped their skills. Same with Korea. So at what point does an industrialized nation cross over from cheap crap to well made?

 

And as you point out, a lot of companies are hybrids with design, components, and assembly coming together from different corners. What the brand name offers is oversight and quality control, and if you trust the brand owners to do that well, then country of origin doesn't especially matter.

[UstadKhanAli]

I don't know how much stock you can put in that link about Behringer (as much as I think they suck).

 

For instance, Sweetwater carried Heil before, and they're a very good quality mic. But now they have this:

[boosh]

Is there something wrong about behringer? They are german right ? so they must have good quality and a good design department.

[MikeRivers]

 

.

 

Do I smell a trend here? I was curious, but searching the site for "Looking for" turned up enough "we got it" products that I didn't bother to sort through the list for "we ain't got it" products. I wonder how many pages with this theme there are on the Sweetwater site. It'd be a good research project for some time when I break both legs.

 

I suppose that when you have a search feature on a web site, it's better in terms of making the site more "human" to acknowledge the search string and say we don't have it (and suggest an alternative) than to give the generic "no match" response.

 

I suspect that in the case of Behringer vs. Sweetwater, it's not so much about quality as it is about perception. Behringer has a pretty big investment in a manufacturing and development facility in China (I keep waiting for them to invite me to visit, but so far all I've seen is the video) and I don't imagine that it's any worse than any other largely automated assembly plant anywhere in the world. You get the right parts, you put them in the right hoppers, you set all the dials correctly and run the right program and good stuff comes out.

 

There was a time when Chinese manufacturing houses weren't very good at following instructions, and would substitute parts rather than wait for a shipment of the right parts. I expect that there are still facilities like that, but I expect that Behringer's is beyond that. Mackie's major Chinese manufacturer might have stayed in business if they decided they could cheat on Mackie's products. Just as well that they didn't. Mackie was having the late, slightly lamented X-Bus console built in the US and they had far more problems with the manufacturer building that one than they had even ten years ago with their first dabblings with Chinese manufacturers (before they learned what they had to do in order to get it made right).

 

I don't know what it is with Heil. Maybe he wants to be more independent, or sell through dealers who can be more price-competetive. Transamerica Audio Group used to sell his mics and they don't sell anything that they don't strongly believe in, but I see that they're no longer a Heil dealer.

[Chucksweet]

Hi all,

 

I have been following Craig's forums for a very long time, but I tend not to post much. I guess I am a long time lurker...

 

I thought I would take a second and clarify in my own words why Sweetwater doesn't carry some brands of products. (I have enjoyed everyone's speculation though)

 

The answer is actually very simple. I am fortunate that as the sole owner and founder of Sweetwater I do not have to answer to stockholders, banks, or other "advisors". My wife and I completely own 100% of Sweetwater and therefore, we get to make all the decisions in our company. I am sure sometimes we make incorrect decisions and sometimes we make good decisions. Fortunately, after 30 years, we generally seem to be making more correct ones than wrong ones.

 

I am not going to comment specifically on Behringer, Heil, or any other vendor that we do not carry. I personally have met, and I respect both Uli Behringer and Bob Heil. They both make some fabulous products. How can you not be impressed with what each of them has accomplished?

 

That being said, Sweetwater has decided to not do business with these companies (and many others for that matter). It is not because their products are made in China or not made in China, etc. As it was said earlier by someone else, there are great products made in China and bad products made in the US.

 

Instead of focussing on why we don't sell their products, I will tell you what I look for when deciding to support a company. These are in no particular order, but these are just some of the things I take under consideration.

 

1. Does the company make great, innovative, original products?

2. Do they make products that my friends, my customers, and myself would truly use.

3. Are they priced fairly for the customer?

4. Can I make any money selling them?

5. How are their products distributed, what is their model?

6. Are they a good company to do business with?

7 Do they have any "stupid" policies?

8. Will they stand behind their products with good warranties?

9. Will they work with us to offer the kind of customer service I feel every customer deserves? (or do they even know how?)

10. Will we be working with quality people?

11. Can I trust them?

12. Do I like them?

13. Does it "feel" right?

 

There are many more things I look at, but these are just some of the topics that we seriously consider before we will carry a product. Believe it or not, I put a lot of stock into #11, 12, 13. I am in this business because I enjoy it, I want to make a difference, help people and I want to have fun. If #11,12, and 13 can't be met, then it is a show stopper for me. There are plenty of great companies today who truly want yours and my business. Those are the companies I love to support. I would also add that we tend to be very loyal and support the companies, the brands, and the people... even if their particular products are out of favor this week. Obviously, this has to be a fine balance.

 

Not every company I do business with is perfect, or perfect everyday, but I will tell you ... they all care and want to be a good supplier.

 

I hope this helps answer some of the speculation. Please feel free to ask me more questions about this or any other topic.

 

Thanks

Chuck Surack

Sweetwater Sound

[Anderton]

I hope this helps answer some of the speculation. Please feel free to ask me more questions about this or any other topic.

 

Any other topic? Better watch out, Chuck, we have some pretty creative people here

 

I would also add that in general (not specifically in Chuck's case, because I don't know) at some point a company has to draw the line concerning just how much stuff they're going to carry. I'm particularly well aware of this as an author: At what point does a book not warrant the shelf space? Is it when it only sells 100 copies in a year? Well, then what happens if it only sells 99 copies...

 

I think this also helps explain Chuck's reliance on "feel." A lot of decisions are simply judgement calls. You know, the way the record business used to be run...

[Billster]

I forgot that Chuck lurks here.

 

As he is running a private company, he can do as he pleases.

 

I submit that for other retailers, there are often political issues that dictate who gets shelf space and who doesn't. It's weird how much power the middlemen have.

[Anderton]

Political issues may influence what gets the shelf space - but the bottom line is always whether customers buy products or not.

[the stranger]

So at what point does an industrialized nation cross over from cheap crap to well made?

 

It actually goes the other way.