Members the stranger Posted March 18, 2009 Members Share Posted March 18, 2009 Do I smell a trend here? I was curious, but searching the site for "Looking for" turned up enough "we got it" products that I didn't bother to sort through the list for "we ain't got it" products. I wonder how many pages with this theme there are on the Sweetwater site. It'd be a good research project for some time when I break both legs. I suppose that when you have a search feature on a web site, it's better in terms of making the site more "human" to acknowledge the search string and say we don't have it (and suggest an alternative) than to give the generic "no match" response. I suspect that in the case of Behringer vs. Sweetwater, it's not so much about quality as it is about perception. Behringer has a pretty big investment in a manufacturing and development facility in China (I keep waiting for them to invite me to visit, but so far all I've seen is the video) and I don't imagine that it's any worse than any other largely automated assembly plant anywhere in the world. You get the right parts, you put them in the right hoppers, you set all the dials correctly and run the right program and good stuff comes out. There was a time when Chinese manufacturing houses weren't very good at following instructions, and would substitute parts rather than wait for a shipment of the right parts. I expect that there are still facilities like that, but I expect that Behringer's is beyond that. Mackie's major Chinese manufacturer might have stayed in business if they decided they could cheat on Mackie's products. Just as well that they didn't. Mackie was having the late, slightly lamented X-Bus console built in the US and they had far more problems with the manufacturer building that one than they had even ten years ago with their first dabblings with Chinese manufacturers (before they learned what they had to do in order to get it made right). I don't know what it is with Heil. Maybe he wants to be more independent, or sell through dealers who can be more price-competetive. Transamerica Audio Group used to sell his mics and they don't sell anything that they don't strongly believe in, but I see that they're no longer a Heil dealer. I was figuring Shure and the other big ones forced Heil out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted March 18, 2009 Members Share Posted March 18, 2009 I was figuring Shure and the other big ones forced Heil out. Unless Chuck corrects me, I am virtually certain that is not the case. The big companies are too busy tending to their own affairs to concern themselves much with smaller competitors. Besides, trying strong-arm tactics is not the way to win friends and influence people. I think if a company called up Sweetwater, or Musicians Friend for that matter, and said "We don't think you should carry a particular product," I'm pretty sure either company would respond with "yeah, right, good-bye." No one likes being blackmailed, y'know? And frankly, these days I'm pretty sure the companies need the retailers more than the retailers need the companies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted March 18, 2009 Members Share Posted March 18, 2009 I am fortunate that as the sole owner and founder of Sweetwater I do not have to answer to stockholders, banks, or other "advisors". From my experience, banks and other "advisors" are a double-edged sword. Without naming names, some of these entities come into a business, cut it to the bone, toss out employees to make an arbitrary and unrealistic bottom line, and basically suck it dry while pillaging everything they can - then hope to sell the carcass to someone else. But I've also seen where some companies come in, add a strong dose of smart business sense, provide capital to grow a company beyond what it could have done by itself, and are genuinely interested in building a company that is strong and healthy so they can either a) hold on to it and reap continuing benefits, sort of like an annuity; or b) sell it for a bazillion dollars. Having been involved in both scenarios, I greatly prefer the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Lozada Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 I'm gonna hate myself for this for a long time -defending Behringer? Hell!!- ... ... but... to be fair, consider this: http://www.sweetwater.com/feature/not_available/oktava.php and this: http://www.sweetwater.com/feature/not_available/nady.php ... oh... and... THIS: http://www.sweetwater.com/feature/not_available/mesaboogie.php http://www.sweetwater.com/feature/not_available/rickenbacker.php ... so with that last two we can know it is not really a matter of "bad quality" but about feeling about business. And Chuck knows one thing or two about that. ... Now it is time for me to wear a paper bag on my head for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted March 18, 2009 Members Share Posted March 18, 2009 And they all say "At this time" so it's not like the door is closed forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cooterbrown Posted March 18, 2009 Members Share Posted March 18, 2009 http://www.sweetwater.com/feature/not_available/mesaboogie.phphttp://www.sweetwater.com/feature/not_available/rickenbacker.php... so with that last two we can know it is not really a matter of "bad quality" but about feeling about business. And Chuck knows one thing or two about that. Both those companies have rather draconian policies and outright "rules" about handling their line. I wouldn't blame any retailer for not carrying either one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted March 18, 2009 Members Share Posted March 18, 2009 Isn't Rickenbacker back-ordered until sometime in the next century? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chucksweet Posted March 18, 2009 Members Share Posted March 18, 2009 I was figuring Shure and the other big ones forced Heil out. Craig is right, no manufacturer today ever tells me to not carry a line. There was a little bit of that going on back in the 80s, but today they are all just trying to do as much good business as they can. They do try and show me why their products and policies are better that their competition. Speaking of Shure, they are an fabulous company. They are very easy to do business with and their stuff is incredibly reliable. We almost never have a quality issue. In fact, it is amazing to me, but almost all of the microphone companies are some of the very best partners we have. I hate to name names, because I know I will leave some out...but Shure, Sennheiser, Audio Technica, RODE, Neumann, AKG, Samson (and several others) are some of the very best companies I do business with. They all make great products and all of these companies have some amazing people working for them. Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members the stranger Posted March 18, 2009 Members Share Posted March 18, 2009 Thanks for the replies to my comments, Craig and Chuck! It's great having this forum and all these talented professionals. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Billster Posted March 18, 2009 Members Share Posted March 18, 2009 It actually goes the other way. That too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeff da Weasel Posted March 18, 2009 Members Share Posted March 18, 2009 I do understand where all of this vibe comes from. However, what you have to understand is that the entire MI and Pro Audio industry is very small, comparatively speaking. While there's certainly healthy competition among manufacturers and retailers, people who prioritize smashing the competition as their main business strategy usually don't last long in our little world. As Craig and Chuck will undoubtedly agree, the most successful and respected companies in our business are those who focus on making their own products as useful and innovative as possible, especially over the long term. From the manufacturers to the retailers to the media in our industry, the much more common attitude is a vibe of cooperation and partnering. There's not nearly as much backstabbing, corporate espionage, and shady business dealings as I've witnessed in other industries. The final point, and it's a valid one, is that there's a relatively small number of people who make lifelong careers in MI/Pro Audio. Most of us know each other personally, so it's not some situation of nameless, faceless brands for the most part. Many of us have worked together at various places; we know each other's kids' names, our hobbies outside music and so on. It's a pretty uncommon thing, therefore, for people to try and get ahead by trashing others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jon Hiller Posted March 18, 2009 Members Share Posted March 18, 2009 With Behringer it's likely a profit margin thing, you don't make a lot on their stuff, so you have to sell a LOT of it in order to really make any kind of money with their product. I don't think it's a quality thing, although I might have said that a few years ago. Generally speaking, if a company tends to have a lot of product quality issues, they don't continue to be sold by the big stores or anyone else as a general rule. Heil is more of an independent dealer type of company, although, if I were Heil and I were going to sell to any of the mail order companies, Sweetwater would be my choice, simply because they do try to maintain a more upscale image than the others. Is Heil stuff sold at any of the other big mail order stores? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeff da Weasel Posted March 18, 2009 Members Share Posted March 18, 2009 Is Heil stuff sold at any of the other big mail order stores? Sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cooterbrown Posted March 18, 2009 Members Share Posted March 18, 2009 Speaking of Shure, they are a fabulous company. +1000000 The fact that they make rock-solid gear, and can still hold a competitive price point in this day and age, makes them even more of a marvel. I have always been a Shure nazi... I've tried other brands of stage mics, and then wondered what the hell I was thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted March 19, 2009 Members Share Posted March 19, 2009 The final point, and it's a valid one, is that there's a relatively small number of people who make lifelong careers in MI/Pro Audio. Most of us know each other personally, so it's not some situation of nameless, faceless brands for the most part. Many of us have worked together at various places; we know each other's kids' names, our hobbies outside music and so on. It's a pretty uncommon thing, therefore, for people to try and get ahead by trashing others. That is so true. The fact that this is a low-paying industry filters out the "get rich quick" people. Over time, all that's left is people who actually give a damn And by definition, they have a lot in common. MIDI pretty much sums up the industry: a bunch of COMPETITORS co-operating on a technical specification that would end up being a win-win for consumers and manufacturers. It's funny, I saw the Jon Stewart/Kramer thing and thought, "Is there anything going on the MI biz that needs to be exposed?" And I really couldn't think of anything. The closest I could come was overpriced (IMHO) boutique gear, where the selling price far exceeds the cost of materials; but when you consider how few are sold, and how much time goes into developing something, that puts a whole different light on pricing anyway. Anything else (e.g., BS cable claims) has already been done to death on the net - there's not much to expose. This is a very unusual industry, and I guess one reason I'm still here is because I fit in with the all the misfits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jotown Posted March 19, 2009 Members Share Posted March 19, 2009 It's funny, I saw the Jon Stewart/Kramer thing and thought, "Is there anything going on the MI biz that needs to be exposed?" And I really couldn't think of anything.I don't know about that. File sharing and its effects on the percieved value of music has done that same thing to the music industry that unscupulous financial advisors did to the banking system. The only difference is there is no moral outrage by the public because they are the ones doing the destroying; and the only people who understand the extent of the damage are those who actually derive income from the sale of recorded music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeff da Weasel Posted March 19, 2009 Members Share Posted March 19, 2009 I don't know about that. File sharing and its effects on the percieved value of music has done that same thing to the music industry that unscupulous financial advisors did to the banking system. When Craig writes "MI", he's referring to the "Musical Instrument" industry (which also encapsulates Pro Audio), not music in general. He (and you and I and mostly everyone) are aware of the unscrupulous nature of that biz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cooterbrown Posted March 19, 2009 Members Share Posted March 19, 2009 When Craig writes "MI", he's referring to the "Musical Instrument" industry (which also encapsulates Pro Audio), not music in general. He (and you and I and mostly everyone) are aware of the unscrupulous nature of that biz. I nearly lost my soul and love for playing music, during the two years I worked MI retail. I found out I was too honest and scrupulous for that racket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted March 19, 2009 Members Share Posted March 19, 2009 When Craig writes "MI", he's referring to the "Musical Instrument" industry (which also encapsulates Pro Audio), not music in general. He (and you and I and mostly everyone) are aware of the unscrupulous nature of that biz. Yup. I specifically mean the people who make the products. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members scud133 Posted March 20, 2009 Members Share Posted March 20, 2009 I don't know how much stock you can put in that link about Behringer (as much as I think they suck).For instance, Sweetwater carried Heil before, and they're a very good quality mic. But now they have this: wow that's crap i can't believe they dropped Heil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jotown Posted March 20, 2009 Members Share Posted March 20, 2009 Yup. I specifically mean the people who make the products.Sorry about that rant. Rant retracted; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted March 20, 2009 Members Share Posted March 20, 2009 Sorry about that rant. Rant retracted; No problem - it's a comment worth making, regardless of whether it addressed a specific point I made or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mc5nrg Posted March 20, 2009 Members Share Posted March 20, 2009 Heard about the made in China faulty valvestems yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members scud133 Posted March 20, 2009 Members Share Posted March 20, 2009 Heard about the made in China faulty valvestems yet? wait, my tires are defective??? :poke: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mc5nrg Posted March 20, 2009 Members Share Posted March 20, 2009 Apparently a large supply of generic valvestems MIC over the past couple years are defective and have been linked to sudden deflation and fatal car wrecks. The test is to wiggle the vs from side to side and listen for leaking air.Source: TV news fear of the day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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