What makes expensive pickups better?

[MahaloVision]

Those ladies at the Gibson plant also wound their share of turds, too. But part of what made some of those PAF's great was that they weren't exactly balanced between the coils. They didn't have the exact same number of windings, and they sure as hell didn't have the exact same winding patterns either. It's said that nothing happens in nature until a symmetry is broken, and I like to think it's part of what makes great pickups great. Or, that I've simply had too many beers in my lifetime.

 

All I'll add to this discussion is:

 

- the GFS max output bass pickup (MM style) is too hot. Go for the alnico one instead. I'm having to use the active input on my bass amp.

 

- A Lollar P-90 neck pickup is a thing of beauty that everybody should experience at least once in their lifetime. And not all that expensive, either.

[Northstar]

Those ladies at the Gibson plant also wound their share of turds, too. But part of what made some of those PAF's great was that they weren't exactly balanced between the coils. They didn't have the exact same number of windings, and they sure as hell didn't have the exact same winding patterns either. It's said that nothing happens in nature until a symmetry is broken, and I like to think it's part of what makes great pickups great. Or, that I've simply had too many beers in my lifetime. All I'll add to this discussion is: - the GFS max output bass pickup (MM style) is too hot. Go for the alnico one instead. I'm having to use the active input on my bass amp. - A Lollar P-90 neck pickup is a thing of beauty that everybody should experience at least once in their lifetime. And not all that expensive, either.

 

 

You sold me.

[DaveGrima]

Those ladies at the Gibson plant also wound their share of turds, too. But part of what made some of those PAF's great was that they weren't exactly balanced between the coils. They didn't have the exact same number of windings.

 

 

Then these should sound great. Anyone try these new Stewmac Pickups? I hear they are made in the same plant as GFS. Im really torn between grabbing one of these for the neck on my Tele and spending the extra $50 to get the Seth Lover which seems to have the same specs. .

[YOUTUBE]DpcLhYMH2rs[/YOUTUBE]

[GAS Man]

Seems like we have lots of collective misconceptions. I'd love to see our several in house pickup makers jump in on this thread and educate us.

 

 

 

 

Me too. I looked at this thread yesterday hoping to see a builder weigh in. I agree that the more expensive pickups do sound better and I agree that the reason why seems allusive since the mechanics are basic and the cost of cheap versus quality components would not seem to be a barrier.

 

 

But I do really like the Burstbucker (and similar pickups) that prove the replicating the uneven scatter wound process of early pickups does give a more dimensional tone than those wound more precisely and uniformly by modern machine winders. But again, that doesn't seem like anything some Asian sweatshop couldn't readily duplicate.

[Steadfastly]

Why "Not necessarily"? Do you think American companies just say to the Chinese factories... "Oh it's ok, just send over anything you have in stock, I'll buy anything you are willing to send me". Come on EADGBE, even you know better than that! They buy products or have them built to a price point. It's pathetic to believe the Chinese are incapable of producing quality products. Right now though, all they're doing is making exactly what their customers will buy... and laughing their asses off on the way to the world bank. You are correct in saying Rock music was banned in both USSR and China but no longer. Not today. You should realize China is developing both culturally and economical. Changes are on a very fast track. China is becoming the next world empire, just as Rome, Britain and the USA once were. USA, as much as we love it, is on the decline. No big deal, it's happened to every empire in the past and will happen to every empire in the future. Look how well UK came out of theirs. Rock music banned in the USA? Not that I know of, although I'd imagine what was once known as the "establishment" would have loved that. Record burning was only a tiny part of it. Remember that Rock wasn't only music. Rock became a lifestyle, a way of thinking, a social movement that changed the USA to it's core. It ripped the blindfolds off. People died for beliefs. Wars were stopped with those beliefs. Those beliefs changed the {censored}ing world . Check up on your history just a bit. That was all a while back. It was when the music mattered instead of the costumes. Like I said, I didn't post to piss you off but your attitude toward foreign manufactures, along with you lack of knowledge is truly laughable. Crack open a book will you? Whether you know it or not, whether you accept it or not, there is a big, beautiful world out there. There are many countries with wonderful heritage and people, that are deserving of the same respect and opportunities as anyone else. You mention owning one foreign guitar... and quickly add it accidentally slipped by and ended up in your collection... and just as quickly say it's plywood . Careful buddy, your prejudice is showing. In the case of China and the Chinese, I'd suggest you study up on their historical contributions to the world and even to the development of the USA we now know. You'll be surprised at what you can learn, although you may not be willing to accept the facts. Does China have problems? Of course. Do you think the USA had problems while it was developing? Does it have problems today? :poke: There are members here that insist on only buying USA guitars although it may be an exercise in futility, since some if not most of the components are imported anyway. However those are their guitars and they are free to decide what and why they buy. I do have to say though that while you play ostrich with your head deep down in that MIA hole, there are magnificent guitars passing you by. Incredible as it may seem, against your convictions I know... some of them equal and even better to any produced in the USA. They're aren't all plywood. Do I own any Chinese Gibson Les Paul's? No but I've owned Chinese Les Paul's before, made by Epiphone, which is owned by Gibson. See, while some here honestly try to be patriotic, buy American and fight for jobs in the homeland, the company they are buying from (Gibson), doesn't give a flying {censored} about any other economy but their own. Gibson has no problem at all outsourcing and trading with the Chinese, no problem at all having the instruments that make up their largest sales and income, being made in China. If you were congruent with this buy USA ideal, you wouldn't buy from Gibson at all... of Fender for that matter... or any brand that used even one component in that wasn't made in the USA. I don't know of any guitar like that. Do you? To be completely honest, all this flag waving, patriotic, "I only buy MIA!" stuff, is complete and absolute rubbish. Total internet bull{censored}. It's impossible to live in todays world with out using Chinese or foreign goods. From the clothes on you back, to the gas you pump into your car, to the PC you type on, to the phone you talk on, the games you play... they all come from somewhere else. It's all interconnected now. It's called the world, it's that really big thing outside your backyard fence. Damn I had to get that off my chest!

What would we do with HC to help make us feel better!

In all seriousness this is the world we live in.

[RaVenCAD]

Why "Not necessarily"? Do you think American companies just say to the Chinese factories... "Oh it's ok, just send over anything you have in stock, I'll buy anything you are willing to send me". Come on EADGBE, even you know better than that! They buy products or have them built to a price point. It's pathetic to believe the Chinese are incapable of producing quality products. Right now though, all they're doing is making exactly what their customers will buy... and laughing their asses off on the way to the world bank. You are correct in saying Rock music was banned in both USSR and China but no longer. Not today. You should realize China is developing both culturally and economical. Changes are on a very fast track. China is becoming the next world empire, just as Rome, Britain and the USA once were. USA, as much as we love it, is on the decline. No big deal, it's happened to every empire in the past and will happen to every empire in the future. Look how well UK came out of theirs. Rock music banned in the USA? Not that I know of, although I'd imagine what was once known as the "establishment" would have loved that. Record burning was only a tiny part of it. Remember that Rock wasn't only music. Rock became a lifestyle, a way of thinking, a social movement that changed the USA to it's core. It ripped the blindfolds off. People died for beliefs. Wars were stopped with those beliefs. Those beliefs changed the {censored}ing world . Check up on your history just a bit. That was all a while back. It was when the music mattered instead of the costumes. Like I said, I didn't post to piss you off but your attitude toward foreign manufactures, along with you lack of knowledge is truly laughable. Crack open a book will you? Whether you know it or not, whether you accept it or not, there is a big, beautiful world out there. There are many countries with wonderful heritage and people, that are deserving of the same respect and opportunities as anyone else. You mention owning one foreign guitar... and quickly add it accidentally slipped by and ended up in your collection... and just as quickly say it's plywood . Careful buddy, your prejudice is showing. In the case of China and the Chinese, I'd suggest you study up on their historical contributions to the world and even to the development of the USA we now know. You'll be surprised at what you can learn, although you may not be willing to accept the facts. Does China have problems? Of course. Do you think the USA had problems while it was developing? Does it have problems today? :poke: There are members here that insist on only buying USA guitars although it may be an exercise in futility, since some if not most of the components are imported anyway. However those are their guitars and they are free to decide what and why they buy. I do have to say though that while you play ostrich with your head deep down in that MIA hole, there are magnificent guitars passing you by. Incredible as it may seem, against your convictions I know... some of them equal and even better to any produced in the USA. They're aren't all plywood. Do I own any Chinese Gibson Les Paul's? No but I've owned Chinese Les Paul's before, made by Epiphone, which is owned by Gibson. See, while some here honestly try to be patriotic, buy American and fight for jobs in the homeland, the company they are buying from (Gibson), doesn't give a flying {censored} about any other economy but their own. Gibson has no problem at all outsourcing and trading with the Chinese, no problem at all having the instruments that make up their largest sales and income, being made in China. If you were congruent with this buy USA ideal, you wouldn't buy from Gibson at all... of Fender for that matter... or any brand that used even one component in that wasn't made in the USA. I don't know of any guitar like that. Do you? To be completely honest, all this flag waving, patriotic, "I only buy MIA!" stuff, is complete and absolute rubbish. Total internet bull{censored}. It's impossible to live in todays world with out using Chinese or foreign goods. From the clothes on you back, to the gas you pump into your car, to the PC you type on, to the phone you talk on, the games you play... they all come from somewhere else. It's all interconnected now. It's called the world, it's that really big thing outside your backyard fence. Damn I had to get that off my chest!

I disagree with almost everything you jsut said, but you said it very well my friend. I know I'm a bit over-zealous in my anti-MIC crusade, and I know there isn't some all-powerful body controlling everyting MIC. I also know that my not buying a Chinese made guitar is going to nothing to harm China's exportation of those guitars. Maybe I'll have to order myself one of those nifty Edwards LPs soon?

[Shiny_Surface]

I also know that my not buying a Chinese made guitar is going to nothing to harm China's exportation of those guitars. Maybe I'll have to order myself one of those nifty Edwards LPs soon?

Funny how Edwards aren't even supposed to be sold in the U.S., we have to buy them from Japan.

[RaVenCAD]

Funny how Edwards aren't even supposed to be sold in the U.S., we have to buy them from Japan.

That's because if they did try to sell them directly in the US, Gibson would sue them out of business. By selling in Japan, Gibson and US laws have no hold on them.

[smorgdonkey]

I just had to interject...

To be completely honest, all this flag waving, patriotic, "I only buy MIA!" stuff, is complete and absolute rubbish. Total internet bull{censored}. It's impossible to live in todays world with out using Chinese or foreign goods. From the clothes on you back, to the gas you pump into your car, to the PC you type on, to the phone you talk on, the games you play... they all come from somewhere else. It's all interconnected now. It's called the world, it's that really big thing outside your backyard fence.

I think that point of view is absolute rubbish. You DO WHAT YOU CAN. Just because you cannot entirely exempt Chinese products doesn't mean that you just give up and not bother - well, maybe YOU do but many people are making the choices that are closer to home whenever they can.

[Doctor Morbius]

... but many people are making the choices that are closer to home whenever they can.

Yep. Whenever possible.

[Doctor Morbius]

What makes expensive pickups better?

I just bought a used set of Fralin Vintage Hots. I have a strong feeling these will beat the pants off the run of the mill import pickups.

[WRGKMC]

Think you guys have gone into building pickups a bit but I dont think many know how manufactures get specific tones from pickups, and how they can consistantly get pickups to match.

 

Main factors for signal strength are magnet strength, thickness and number of turns in the coil. You can increase the magnetic strength and get a stronger output, but theres a point where the strong magnets pull on strings and cause problems with buzzing intonation etc. You can increase the number of turns or use thinner wire with more turns to get a stronger output. The tradeoff is a loss in fidelity.

 

Manufactures use a littel gizmo that allows them to measure the impediance of the coil being wound. I say impediance here, not resistance because impediance is based on frequency and AC current which the coil produces.

 

They use a coil to test a coil. This coil sets on top the other in close proxcimity. A signal is passed through it like a sweep generator that starts at 20hx and goes up to 20K hz. A bar graph is created by the output of the pickup and its compared to see where the coils peak resonance occurs.

 

Most guitar pickups fall in the range of 150~6Khz range some singles wider, hot wound narrower. By varyingthe winds and magnet strength you can tune the buliding of a put right where you want it. With the use of some test toolsand computer you can narrow it down to whats best for most amps. thats the way its done at Duncan and many others. theres no guesswork on winds or any of that BS. Its science and quality controll that counts in getting what you want.

[BoneNut]

Ok, for the sake of the debate I'll answer in kind. Just don't go getting pissed at me Smorg dude alright?

I think that point of view is absolute rubbish. You DO WHAT YOU CAN. Just because you cannot entirely exempt Chinese products doesn't mean that you just give up and not bother - well, maybe YOU do but many people are making the choices that are closer to home whenever they can.

I don't doubt there are many here, that sincerely do their best to buy MIA products as much as possible. RavenCad for example, has always been the in house Carvin and MIA defender and there are a few others like him. Those guys have all my respect. I understand their intent but the execution of the concept is ludicrous. What I am saying is that it's now impossible to function or even survive today without imported goods (not just from China either although they are satanised the most). Maybe the key phrase in your post was "when you can". What does that mean? 10% or your purchases? 5%? 1%? Less?

Your self righteous indignation is hardly justified Smorg. If you were true to what you're stating and followed it as much as possible..."whenever you can", you sure as hell wouldn't be posting on this forum would you or any other for that matter? You might... might, be able to have a 100% MIA guitar but you sure as hell wouldn't have an amp to play it through would you?. Where are those damn copper mines located? Who the heck makes those pretty little colored components?

Here's another tid bit for you to gnaw on... You some of those companies that we all think are USA all the way owned? Think the owners are all Americans? How about the ones who owe the banks money? Do you know who owns many of those debts? Oh boy the rabbit hole is deeeeeep!!!

[goosefartfan]

why?

 

 

Gibson starts out of the gate with much better sounding PU's than Epi.

 

Therefore, if you replace PU's on the Gibson with a SD/DiM/Custom wound, the difference in sound quality will be less than if you did the same thing with an Epi.

[DaveGrima]

My thread has turned into a political {censored}storm!

[BoneNut]

My thread has turned into a political {censored}storm!

Sorry about that Dave! We now return to your regularly scheduled broadcast.

[diceman1000]

There's not a lot of difference in price between high carbon steel and stainless. EG

 

 

sorry brother, but there is a HUGE difference in price between stainless and black iron... there is substantial price differences between grades and finishes of stainless also... 2B finish> than standard finish. Haynes>Inconel>316L>316>309>304L>304 and so on...

 

and there are a few guys that have quality pickups made in Asia to their specific specs, Ken at Rose Pickups being the first that comes to mind, just ask anyone that owns a set of Meriposas or Buff Beauties... i think whoever said that you here "gods glorious farts" because you spent a weeks pay was dead on... are there superior and inferior pickups, sure... but there is no way in hell a set of WCR's pr Wolftones or TV Jones are worth $300+...

[Belva]

Dave,what are you doing................................Dave..............................
Has your question been answered? Probably not. I haven't heard a big difference in boutique pups compared to decent Asian pups. Not enough to justify spending money like it's coming out my ass. When you find something that works for you, phuck the people here who think money equals quality.

Keep in mind this is an anonymous forum. Some people that claim to have 500 buck pups in their 3 grand guitar playing a 700 buck processor thru an amp that costs 5 grand may actually only have a Hamer Slammer and a Fender Squire Champ. But they can come here and talk {censored}.

[scuzzo]

in answer to OP: and to pull this back on topic..



Elf'n Magic?

[Northstar]

Dave,what are you doing................................Dave.............................. Has your question been answered? Probably not. I haven't heard a big difference in boutique pups compared to decent Asian pups. Not enough to justify spending money like it's coming out my ass. When you find something that works for you, phuck the people here who think money equals quality. Keep in mind this is an anonymous forum. Some people that claim to have 500 buck pups in their 3 grand guitar playing a 700 buck processor thru an amp that costs 5 grand may actually only have a Hamer Slammer and a Fender Squire Champ. But they can come here and talk {censored}.

 

 

Humbug

[DavidMgT]

so in one thread wood doesn't matter, now pickups do not matter. I guess nothing matters and all guitars are the same.

[Angry Tele]

I just bought a used set of Fralin Vintage Hots. I have a strong feeling these will beat the pants off the run of the mill import pickups.

 

 

I have the Fralin Stock Tele set in my CVC and they are really great PUPs. Very articulate and versatile, they sound awesome clean, lots of twang, and can do the Jimmy Page thing with fuzz. You really cant beat Fralins.

[Darkstorm]

The qaulity of the wire and magnets make a lot of diff. A large variety of voicings can be had depending how you do the coils and magnets. In simple terms this first devides voice char into either crunchy or smooth. Then into various flavorings for those two type. Wether or not the pups are 4 or two conductor makes a diff in cost to. The former allowing for coil tapping and or parrellel/series switches.

The cheapest pups of very good qaulity are gonna be the house brand pups used in import guitars by your fave gtr mfg for their house pups. For example I like the BC Rich BDSM humbuckers better then most of the pups by dimarzio and seymour duncan. Sure the pole peices need adjustment out of the box to get best sound, but.... Ok with a lot of house brands you have crunchy rather then smooth voiced pups. These havent been as popular with older players. But have been popular with younger players. The makers dont need to buy advertising to sell their product, theyre included stock in their guitars instead. This furether helps keep the price down. But even if theyre street price for aftermarket purchase was same as most dimarzios and seymours, the orice to user (import guitar maker like ibanez, bc rich, jackson, etc is gonna be less then half street price. Cause they pay wholesale not retail orice for stuff.

So what makes pups worth something? Qaulity wire and coil work, qaulity magnets rather then cheapest version of that magnet type available, quility wax potting, and properly done adjustable pole peices so user can tweak the sound via those.

Boutique pups cost so much simply because theyre not mass produced, production is very small time, not enough to supply national internet stores with product. Like other rare items, cost is higher cause maker can charge more for custom made way of doing bussiness. Doesnt make them better, just makes them more expensive by default. imo

[jrockbridge]

Putting the question of materials aside for a moment, maybe, scatter winding makes the coil sound more complex. Mass production tends to be more perfect and, in the case of a pickup coil, perhaps that leads to a generic and less interesting sound.

Also, some people are cursed with sensitive hearing. Others have blown out their hearing long ago. I guess there's no point in paying more if you can't hear a difference. Personally, I scratch my head and wonder why such a simple part of the signal chain is capable of making such a big difference in the sound. It's a mystery to me.

Boutique pickups cost more because people are willing to pay more. I know I'm certainly willing to pay extra for better sound. It doesn't always work out that way, but I try. I find both Lindy Fralin and Bryan Gunsher seem to know something about making great sounding pickups.

[PlinytheWelder]

 

I don''t want buy guitars from a police state country. Why do you have a problem with that?

 

 

FWIW, The US has the largest prison population of any country and imprisons more people per capita than any other country...

 

Just saying...