What makes expensive pickups better?

[wartoxin]

And as for the "precise work" argument, I just have to wonder why PAFs made by Gibson in the late 50's by old women on converted sewing machines winding wire with no regards to amount of windings or method made pickups that the world over hails as the ultimate in tone and design.

 

I enjoyed that comment. Now let's go back to pretending that everything old was made by master perfectionists who's secrets were buried with them.

 

There are a lot of points to cover on the subject. For me first and formost I want a pickup with good output and low noise. Some humbuckers are very noisy, I tried a gibson USA one that was a bit, maybe it's the unbalanced coils thing, but I wasn't ok with it. I have cheap stock Danelectro and Kramer pickups that I wouldn't replace ever, they do what I want. I will be using some from GFS for something soon, and considering, wish me luck with that...

[smorgdonkey]

 

the GFS Fat Pats were interesting, but the honeymoon was over quickly, I got a pair of WCR's CrossRoads. Nirvana! Totally made an otherwise inferior guitar, very cool. Bought a PRS SE Soapbar. Pups were decent but again, vibeless. Bought Lollar P-90s. Nirvana! I think the boutique guys (Lollar, WCR, Fralin, Bare Knuckle etc.) have spent a LOT of time studying and refining their pickups. I don't think winding a pickup is as easy as some of you think, old ladies from the 50's notwithstanding.

 

 

Nice post. I have never been disappointed spending real money on pickups...and I REALLY like my money so if I buy something and it sucks then I just BUUUUURRRRNN!!! Then everybody hears about it. I had a set of GFS Dream 180 pickups in a guitar that I bought...let me tell you if I would have bought those pieces of crap based upon the website I would have high-fived myself in the face about 50 times after trying to get them to live up to 1/10th of the hype.

 

Great pickups can wake up a 'dud' guitar as you suggested (perhaps not as bluntly as I said) and the people who say 'it is just wire wrapped around bobbins' should really talk to a few people who have tried winding and see how it turned-out. I spoke to a guy who is pretty good at it and he said that the stuff in Lollar's book would take YEARS and YEARS plus hundreds of pickups to learn on your own.

 

Lastly, playing with the uberload of gain is not going to really let the nuances of great pickups shine through...unless you have a good ear...well, they will still be way better but you can cover a lot up with the high gain models on a Spyder III. Anyway, the moderate gain and the clean world are really the areas that will shine a magnifying glass on the strengths of great pickups.

[wagdog]

I made my own pickups once, single coils.

 

Materials were inexpensive, I probably spent about $50 on them, maybe less.

 

It was educational to say the least. It took a lot of time. I didn't know what was doing. I had to unwind my first effort and do it again (thank you to bryan g for answering my questions about this - he's a first rate, REAL dude).

 

They came out sounding really, really good! I was pysched, but I also know that I probably can't replicate them twice as I still don't know what I'm doing, and I'm using a drill for a winder, chopsticks for wire guides and my fingers as tensioners for the wire.

 

Point is; it's doable to wind your own and come up with something good, but winding them over and over again with any kind of consistency is hard - and people like Bryan G can do it. The people who have used his pickups will attest to how good they sound.

 

And that's what you're paying for; consistency and the knowledge and experience it takes to hand wind a great pickup.

[Doctor Morbius]

 

... And that's what you're paying for; consistency and the knowledge and experience it takes to hand wind a great pickup.

Yep. If it weren't for that, then all the el-cheapo pickups would sound as good as the booteek ones.

 

There's also some cost added for brand recognition, advertising and such on the business side, but the cost for the equipment isn't going to break the bank.

[smorgdonkey]

Yep. If it weren't for that, then all the el-cheapo pickups would sound as good as the booteek ones.

 

It's so easy, even a cave man could do it!

 

[kulardenu]

I too have wondered about this. Only about hookers...

[catscurlyear]

i have a seymour duncan hot rails i think its 16k output cost roughly

[Steadfastly]

 

Hand wired by dedicated, knowledgeable people like Bryan (bg) should cost way more but amazingly, he charges about the same as a very good factory made pick-ups. Not cheap but very decent price for what is literally boutique stuff.

 

 

Why would hand wired be better than machine wired. With machines nowadays, when designed properly, they often do a better and more consistent job than that done by hand. Perhaps I'm missing something here but this I've argument, I've never understood.

[smorgdonkey]

 

Why would hand wired be better than machine wired. With machines nowadays, when designed properly, they often do a better and more consistent job than that done by hand. Perhaps I'm missing something here but this I've argument, I've never understood.

 

 

There are many things that a hand can do to vary tension on the wire at specific times and apparently manipulating the wire in ways that can't really be replicated (this from experienced winders, of which I am not one). From a 'mechanized assembly' standpoint however, I can say that there are many manual operations which still require hands AND eyes to perform properly while the machines do the functions which do not require any judgement but only a manipulation, placement, etc.

[sgt mukuzi]

a pick ups tone has a bit to do with your amps input impedance as well imo

and the acoustic properties of the pick ups enclosure as well as the rout in the guitar.

[BoneNut]

Seems like we have lots of collective misconceptions. I'd love to see our several in house pickup makers jump in on this thread and educate us.

[Steadfastly]

 

There are many things that a hand can do to vary tension on the wire at specific times and apparently manipulating the wire in ways that can't really be replicated (this from experienced winders, of which I am not one). From a 'mechanized assembly' standpoint however, I can say that there are many manual operations which still require hands AND eyes to perform properly while the machines do the functions which do not require any judgement but only a manipulation, placement, etc.

 

 

I understand what you're saying but this is a coil. What you want here is no wire manipulation but completely even winding. When the winding machine is properly designed, I just can't see how a hand could do this better than a properly set up machine. The big difference here would be the even tension across the whole coil. All the judgement is this case is done beforehand.

 

[YOUTUBE]fZyDzfw_Rvc&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

[EADGBE]

I know most of the price difference comes from labor cost. US made vs. Overseas. Small handmade operations vs. mass produced. But in terms of the components used they all seem to be made out of the same stuff. I never see ads for pickups that use High quality plastic in their bobbins, or high grade copper coil wire. And even cheap pickups use ALnico. So why should I pay 2 or 3x as much for what seems to me to be a pretty simple device using cheap, easliy aquired materials? Taking production costs out of the equation, what makes a Dimarzio better than a GFS, What makes a Fralin better than a Seymour Duncan? What makes expensive pickups better? Why do some of these boutique shops charge that much for some plastic, magnets and copper wire? This isnt a rant. Its a serious question.

 

I buy DiMarzio, EMG, and Duncan pickups because a lot of my favorite artists have used them and because they sound great. I like hotrodded pickups. And I like the fact they're made in the USA. The people who are making these pickups have been making them for decades. And they know how rock music should sound. I really don't want to buy pickups that are made in a country where rock music is banned and or considered subversive. I'm very happy with my American made pickups. I believe DiMarzio, EMG, and Duncan, go the extra mile in turning out a quality product. I'm not sure that's the way things are done overseas. I don't want to buy knockoff pickups.

[BoneNut]

 

I buy DiMarzio, EMG, and Duncan pickups because a lot of my favorite artists have used them and because they sound great. I like hotrodded pickups. And I like the fact they're made in the USA. The people who are making these pickups have been making them for decades. And they know how rock music should sound. I really don't want to buy pickups that are made in a country where rock music is banned and or considered subversive. I'm very happy with my American made pickups. I believe DiMarzio, EMG, and Duncan, go the extra mile in turning out a quality product. I'm not sure that's the way things are done overseas. Where are GFS pickups made? China, Korea, Vietnam? I don't want to buy knockoff pickups.

 

 

Not to piss you off or anything but...

 

You do realize the the Chinese factories just make the pickup to the exact specifications the American companies ordering the work dictate right?

 

You think only American companies know what Rock should sound like? Rest of the world doesn't know {censored} about Rock?

 

Rock music isn't banned in China. Where are you getting your info?

 

Once upon a time, Rock music was considered subversive in the USA. Assholes even got together to have Rock record bonfires. No need to even mention the subversive 60s. Matter of fact, if Rock music isn't subersive... they're not doing it right!

 

Knockoff pickups? I won't even ask what guitars you own.

[DaveGrima]

Seems like we have lots of collective misconceptions. I'd love to see our several in house pickup makers jump in on this thread and educate us.

 

Thats what I was hoping for too. I guess i should buy a book on how to make pickups and maybe try to make some myself to better undersand waht goes into it. Most expensive pickups do sound better than cheap ones and i just don't understand why. They all seem to use the same raw materials. The expenisve pickups don't use any rare, exclusive parts that the cheap ones don't. So why can't cheap pickups made overseas that use the same materials as expensive ones sound as good? It must be in the way they're made. So whats the critical point in the manufacturing process that makes a pickup sound good or bad? The winding? The potting? Whats the secret?

[Belva]

I haven't tried every GFS pup made, but the ones I've tried sound pretty damn good to me. Not crazy about the Dream 180's, but they sound like they'd be good in a tele if you want full size 'buckers and the tele twang. The lil killers I think have a sound all their own and the alnico 107's are among the best sounding strat sc's I've heard.

I can't see spending mega bucks for boutique crap that won't sound any better on stage once you have everything dialed in and some volume going.

The drunks in the audience don't really give a flyin' phuck if you spent a dollar or a hundred dollars per pup. They just wanna grind against that hawt babe and get her home for some good old fashioned boning.

[Cobalt Blue]

 

 

 

That guy's a genius!

 

Fascinating video. Thank you for posting it.

[Steadfastly]

 

That guy's a genius! Fascinating video. Thank you for posting it.

 

 

You're welcome. In the beginning of the clip where he demonstrates the sound of his coil, I thought it was actually a little brighter than the originals.

[ihavenofish]

 

A brass base plate is cheaper than a nickel base plate. Nickel is magnetic, where brass is not. That changes the sound. The purity of the copper wire, more consistent magnets, brass cover vs nickel cover, etc. They aren't made from the same stuff. Then there's the advertising budget, player endorsements.... EG

 

 

while pure nickel is magnetic nickel silver BRASS used in base plates (and frets) is non magnetic, and is also not very expensive compared to regular yellow brass. your talking pennies per pickup difference. if they wanted to go cheap, they would use steel or aluminium.

 

in general though, i think the whole premise of this thread is faulty. my SX has pickups that sound great. i took my agile alnico 5 korean made pickups and put them in my gibson because i liked the sound better than the 490's.

 

the question really isnt what sounds better, because short of non functionality, its all subjective. the question should be why there is actually any difference at all between 2 pickups of equal spec.

 

the biggest variable in my mind is the grade of copper wire and its enamel coating. the rest is all far less meaningful i think (within equal spec pickups). quality copper is by far the most expensive part of a pickup so its understandably where low end brands will skimp, getting wire with more impurities, uneven coatings, lower alloys and whatnot.

 

the hand winding aspect can influence sound, but thats got nothing to do with price / quality, and is more about the whim of the winder who is often trying to create something unique. anything a hand winder can do is easily replicated on a cnc winder in volume.

[Steadfastly]

The question should be why there is actually any difference at all between 2 pickups of equal spec.

 

You've nailed it! I hope every person on HC with an electric guitar reads your post.

[alfsboy]

I found Tonerider to be excellent and the Rocksongs I put in a Dot blew the stock pickups out of the water .Same for their Tele sets.My Baja has a great tone with Fender stocks in it ,just has a certain classy refined sound that even my Keystones dont hit .I bought a set of Axe r us humbuckers to put in a modded SX strat with a heavy alder body and was very pleased with the sound clean or dirty .I think they are in reality Artec ,like GFS ,no more and no less but much better than I expected for 40 quid the pair ,and they are nickel plated not chrome .Doubtless Seymour's are better,but the A r U are decent and toneful from Jazz to clean to hard rock .

[EADGBE]

 

Knockoff pickups? I won't even ask what guitars you own.

 

 

I own six electrics. All American made except a Kramer Striker which was made in Korea. I didn't know it was made overseas until I found out about it later. It's OK. But I'm not crazy about the plywood body.

 

BoneNut, how many Chinese Gibson Les Pauls do you own?

[goosefartfan]

 

I found Tonerider to be excellent and the Rocksongs I put in a Dot blew the stock pickups out of the water .Same for their Tele sets.My Baja has a great tone with Fender stocks in it ,just has a certain classy refined sound that even my Keystones dont hit .I bought a set of Axe r us humbuckers to put in a modded SX strat with a heavy alder body and was very pleased with the sound clean or dirty .I think they are in reality Artec ,like GFS ,no more and no less but much better than I expected for 40 quid the pair ,and they are nickel plated not chrome .Doubtless Seymour's are better,but the A r U are decent and toneful from Jazz to clean to hard rock .

 

 

was that a Gibson dot or an Epi? Big diff to be expected when changing pu's from an Epi, I doubt so much from a Gibson.

[ihavenofish]

 

was that a Gibson dot or an Epi? Big diff to be expected when changing pu's from an Epi, I doubt so much from a Gibson.

 

 

why?

[BoneNut]

Not necessarily. It was banned in both the Soviet Union and China. It was never banned in the USA. I own six electrics. All American made except a Kramer Striker which was made in Korea. I didn't know it was made overseas until I found out about it later. It's OK. But I'm not crazy about the plywood body. BoneNut, how many Chinese Gibson Les Pauls do you own?

 

Why "Not necessarily"? Do you think American companies just say to the Chinese factories... "Oh it's ok, just send over anything you have in stock, I'll buy anything you are willing to send me". Come on EADGBE, even you know better than that! They buy products or have them built to a price point.

 

It's pathetic to believe the Chinese are incapable of producing quality products. Right now though, all they're doing is making exactly what their customers will buy... and laughing their asses off on the way to the world bank.

 

You are correct in saying Rock music was banned in both USSR and China but no longer. Not today.

 

You should realize China is developing both culturally and economical. Changes are on a very fast track. China is becoming the next world empire, just as Rome, Britain and the USA once were. USA, as much as we love it, is on the decline. No big deal, it's happened to every empire in the past and will happen to every empire in the future. Look how well UK came out of theirs.

 

Rock music banned in the USA? Not that I know of, although I'd imagine what was once known as the "establishment" would have loved that.

 

Record burning was only a tiny part of it. Remember that Rock wasn't only music. Rock became a lifestyle, a way of thinking, a social movement that changed the USA to it's core. It ripped the blindfolds off. People died for beliefs. Wars were stopped with those beliefs. Those beliefs changed the fucking world. Check up on your history just a bit. That was all a while back. It was when the music mattered instead of the costumes.

 

Like I said, I didn't post to piss you off but your attitude toward foreign manufactures, along with you lack of knowledge is truly laughable. Crack open a book will you?

 

Whether you know it or not, whether you accept it or not, there is a big, beautiful world out there. There are many countries with wonderful heritage and people, that are deserving of the same respect and opportunities as anyone else.

 

You mention owning one foreign guitar... and quickly add it accidentally slipped by and ended up in your collection... and just as quickly say it's plywood.

Careful buddy, your prejudice is showing.

 

In the case of China and the Chinese, I'd suggest you study up on their historical contributions to the world and even to the development of the USA we now know. You'll be surprised at what you can learn, although you may not be willing to accept the facts. Does China have problems? Of course. Do you think the USA had problems while it was developing? Does it have problems today?

:poke:

 

There are members here that insist on only buying USA guitars although it may be an exercise in futility, since some if not most of the components are imported anyway. However those are their guitars and they are free to decide what and why they buy.

 

I do have to say though that while you play ostrich with your head deep down in that MIA hole, there are magnificent guitars passing you by. Incredible as it may seem, against your convictions I know... some of them equal and even better to any produced in the USA. They're aren't all plywood.

 

Do I own any Chinese Gibson Les Paul's?

No but I've owned Chinese Les Paul's before, made by Epiphone, which is owned by Gibson.

 

See, while some here honestly try to be patriotic, buy American and fight for jobs in the homeland, the company they are buying from (Gibson), doesn't give a flying fuck about any other economy but their own.

 

Gibson has no problem at all outsourcing and trading with the Chinese, no problem at all having the instruments that make up their largest sales and income, being made in China. If you were congruent with this buy USA ideal, you wouldn't buy from Gibson at all... of Fender for that matter... or any brand that used even one component in that wasn't made in the USA. I don't know of any guitar like that. Do you?

 

To be completely honest, all this flag waving, patriotic, "I only buy MIA!" stuff, is complete and absolute rubbish. Total internet bullshit. It's impossible to live in todays world with out using Chinese or foreign goods. From the clothes on you back, to the gas you pump into your car, to the PC you type on, to the phone you talk on, the games you play... they all come from somewhere else. It's all interconnected now. It's called the world, it's that really big thing outside your backyard fence.

 

 

Damn I had to get that off my chest!