THE Thread for THE AGES - What's your thoughts OR Experiences with MIK versus MIC?

[GAS Man]

To frame the discussion -

 

EVERYTHING made in Japan used to be called "Japanese Junk" in this country. True, I'm old enough to remember that. Toys used to come here from Japan where if you took them apart, you might find pieces of soup can labels on the inside left over from their import of our scrap metal.

 

Then once MIK (Made In Korea) came along, then MIJ was like the old Lars and Olly joke, "ya Lars, you should have seen the big fine fish we used to catch here from Japan back in the day. The fit and finish rivaled if not exceeded the USA made geetars", was the story we are told.

 

Now many of the companies have moved from the booming middle class of Korea to the cheaper labor shores of China, and now we get comments like:

 

no way Id pay more than $100 for a chinese guitar. Get a used Epi LP of CL and swap the pickups

 

Now since we know that was in reference to an Epi JB LP, we know that's a comment since just one of the pickups alone are worth more than that, but it's still a worthwhile topic.

 

Maybe later on we can talk about Indonesia, but lets start with the MIK vs MIC. What do you think? and What have you observed?

 

I'll share my own thoughts later and what a Gibson authorized tech said to me on this topic a day ago, but I think this could use an airing out. Even if it is filled with the usual HCEG mix of acute references, limited samplings, or blatant biases.

 

Let's get it out there and leave no Henry Juszkiewicz unscathed.

[kayd_mon]

Well, I have 3 Epiphones - two are mid-90s MIK, one is mid-00s MIC. They all have good workmanship; they play well, stay in tune, and they sound great. To me, I haven't noticed any difference. I may be saying this in ignorance, but I was told that the guitars are cut, made, whatever by machines and computers anyway, even though my Epiphone SG says it's "hand-crafted in China" on the back of the headstock. Would I not buy a guitar because it was MIC? No, that would be silly. If it's a good instrument, and the price is right, why turn it down based on an arbitrary detail?

[sylvesterlowery]

I own guitars from Japan, China, Korea and Indonesia.

I will say, the Japanese can still build awesome guitars, but the rest of the Asian countries are not far behind.

I've seen some amazing guitars made in China and even better ones from Korea, wouldn't hesitate to buy them.

A good point is Eastman Guitars, who build some great guitars. A bit pricey, but from everything I've seen, the craftsmanship and attention to detail is there to warrant it.

 

And for the record, my current main guitar is a Korean made Ibanez SF 420 with a Japanese Ibanez S-classic as my backup.

 

Just my two cents.

[soundcreation]

I think you miss the point on why MIJ are considered so good.

 

Yes, the MIJ's from the 60's to the mid 70's or so were rightly considered to be lower end/bad quality stuff. This is what most Americans had experience with at that time. But two things happened in the mid to late 70's. The japanese started to directly copy the specs of the ORIGINAL Gibson's and Fender's and they STOPPED exporting guitars too america. (for the most part.)

 

So I would imagine that say in the last few years when most americans (of a certain age) hear about how great Japanese guitars are...there thoughts automatically go to those guitars from the 60's and early 70's, and then they just ASSUME that the guitars from the late 70's onward must be roughly the same.

 

It's that assumption which is wrong.

 

Fact is, most Americans have no idea how good those early 80's MIJ guitars were because they've never seen them. The names Greco, Tokai, Burny, Fernandes, and Orville were mainly produced just for the japanese market which by then fully supported it. They didn't care about exporting guitars to america. The odd one that did sneak through or might have been sold in the US were probably written off by most players BASED on the old stereo types, not realizing they were missing out on great instruments. I mean, it's estimated that nearly all the fenders sold in america during the transition from CBS 84 to 86 or something?..were Greco's. So if any of you own a fender from that period and think it's an amazing instrument...that's your reason in all likelihood.

 

Even now with the MIJ hype most American players have still probably never had direct experiences with those brands let alone the new high end stuff like Bacchus, Navigator, Van Zandt, Moon, Crews, Momose..etc...So even today those doubts about the quality of MIJ still linger from some. But those doubts have no basis in any reality. Just old stereo types.

 

The same cannot be said for MIC or MIK though. They have never concentrated on building the best of the best. Not that they couldn't. It's just not what they are contracted to do. And they are building for export to America. Japan isn't. At this point the electric guitar is as much a part of japanese culture as it is in N. America or Europe. In some ways maybe even more. Builders in Japan really don't give two {censored}s about the american market. So they are not targeting price points. They are building for a Japanese consumer who wants quality. (yes they build lower/mid range stuff too.) Korea and China don't have populations that want electric guitars so there is no connection to what they are building. It's just a widget.

[Carbohydrates]

I don't care where it's made if it's good, but I'm more willing to blindly/online purchase something made in America or Japan given my heretofore positive experiences. I'd prefer to play an MIK or MIC in person before I commit my dollars to it.

[faberbz]

Quality continues to improve in MIC and MIK guitars. But, having lived in both countries, I would buy neither. I've even toured the massive Samick plant on the north side of Seoul, where guitars of various brands are produced. Horrendous place. Without getting into detail, I'll just say it's not something I want to think about every time I pick up my guitar. (Electronics plants in Korea are completely different, however: impressively cutting-edge.)

 

It's almost impossible to avoid Chinese- and Korean-made products in today's market. But, with guitars, it's not hard to find and choose an alternative. So that's my choice.

[GAS Man]

 

I think you miss the point on why MIJ are considered so good. .....Builders in Japan really don't give two {censored}s about the American market. So they are not targeting price points. They are building for a Japanese consumer who wants quality. (yes they build lower/mid range stuff too.) Korea and China don't have populations that want electric guitars so there is no connection to what they are building. It's just a widget.

 

 

No, I didn't miss the point since I was talking about Japanese products in general from the end of WWII forward. But you do hit on the point.

 

My experience with MIJ guitars are also those of the early 90s and forward which I don't think are particularly anything exceptional.

 

 

 

 

But here's my thoughts. For the most part, I think that build to spec will often produce a very similar product regardless of "country of origin".

 

However, the point my local Gibson authorized tech made I thought was interesting and similar in vein to your comments.

 

He said that the MIK guitars came out of the only 2 or 3 guitar plants that existed in Korea. And I learned long ago, that Samick was actually the world's largest guitar manufacturer. Not only manufacturing under their own name, but also producing quite a few of the import versions of several other major brands. But his point was that those companies were guitar manufacturing companies that employed luthiers. His view of MIC is merely of production plants where the guitars are built by people who are neither luthiers or guitar players, just assembly line workers, and therefore the quality of construction might suffer as well as the quality of woods. (the latter being more debatable IMO)/

 

Now obviously he has his own biases, but I did think the concept of using a guitar manufacturing company to build your imports, versus building a production plant from the ground up to build your imports, was a fairly objective contrast to make in this debate.

 

From my personal experience, not enough data to draw a conclusion. Most of my Epis are MIK, and some are MIJ, MIC or MII. In general I think they are all pretty decent guitars, just not full professional instrument grade.

 

So, let the debate continue.

 

But I guess part of my point is, once China has enough of a blooming middle class to where Henry C takes his plant somewhere else (Indonesia, Malaysia, Vietnam), will we then be looking back and bemoaning the lost quality of the days of yore and MIC production?

[soundcreation]

 

No, I didn't miss the point since I was talking about Japanese products in general from the end of WWII forward. But you do hit on the point. My experience with MIJ guitars are also those of the early 90s and forward which I don't think are particularly anything exceptional. But here's my thoughts. For the most part, I think that build to spec will often produce a very similar product regardless of "country of origin". However, the point my local Gibson authorized tech made I thought was interesting and similar in vein to your comments. He said that the MIK guitars came out of the only 2 or 3 guitar plants that existed in Korea. And I learned long ago, that Samick was actually the world's largest guitar manufacturer. Not only manufacturing under their own name, but also producing quite a few of the import versions of several other major brands. But his point was that those companies were guitar manufacturing companies that employed luthiers. His view of MIC is merely of production plants where the guitars are built by people who are neither luthiers or guitar players, just assembly line workers, and therefore the quality of construction might suffer as well as the quality of woods. (the latter being more debatable IMO)/ Now obviously he has his own biases, but I did think the concept of using a guitar manufacturing company to build your imports, versus building a production plant from the ground up to build your imports, was a fairly objective contrast to make in this debate. From my personal experience, not enough data to draw a conclusion. Most of my Epis are MIK, and some are MIJ, MIC or MII. In general I think they are all pretty decent guitars, just not full professional instrument grade. So, let the debate continue. But I guess part of my point is, once China has enough of a blooming middle class to where Henry C takes his plant somewhere else (Indonesia, Malaysia, Vietnam), will we then be looking back and bemoaning the lost quality of the days of yore and MIC production?

 

 

 

Yes but which ones? If your talking about something like a MIJ Fender or Epi Elitist from the 90's on...then with all due respect those aren't even CLOSE to what I'm talking about. MIJ fenders for example are nice but are miles below Navigator or Van Zandt.

 

Thing is these days that's just what most Gibson USA and Fender employees are. Factory workers. How many guys in those plants could fully build us a guitar from a raw piece of wood?

 

I think quality of components, woods, and time given per guitar is what separates good guitars from average ones 99% of the time. I doubt any of those MIK or MIC factories are tapping blocks of wood for their resonant properties...but I can guarantee you all high end US and MIJ builders probably are. And even the sort of mid range stuff...like Gibson USA factory models and Bacchus MIJ models get a little more care with their wood selection.

 

As for your last sentence....I doubt it.

[mistersully]

i have 3 MIK guitars... 2 g&l tributes and an epi joe pass.... i like them all... a lot

 

i have one MIC guitar (well i'm guessing it is anyway) ... a ibanez jetking that i put pure 90s in and use it for slide (but i fret notes on it too)... i like it... a lot

 

i have 1 MIJ guitar... a tokai love rock.... it feels to me like it's my best guitar as far as quality goes (although i'm generally pretty clueless about that stuff because i don't really give a {censored}... or maybe i just judge quality differently to most)... i like it... a lot

 

i just spent the last few hours playing keyboards... was bloody great... i think i need a real piano... i wonder what country i should get one from

[w00dsy]

the early chinese stuff was fairly average, but some of the stuff that's come out of there recently has been pretty bloody good. Hagstrom for example are fanatstic. Even a lot of Epi's are quite good, but still a bit hit and miss. I have a Korean Vester Maniac from the mid 90's and it's flawless. Likewise i have an Edwards LP that is chinese/japanese and it's amazingly good.

[acefreely]

I rank them like this:

 

1. Japan/America

2. Korea

3. China/Indonesia

 

Japan makes some good stuff. Their craftsmanship is as good as it gets.

 

As for this debate, Korea wins hands down.

[kit_strong]

The Squire CV Tele is made in China right? Because mine seems to be pretty damned sweet. I think that might be my only MIC instrument at the moment although my 2004 MIC Epi LP was also a great player (although heavy as hell).

Other than that i have to MIJ guitars (Vox Virage, and Luna Phoenix Artist acoustic) both of exquisite craftsmanship.

My 3 MIK guitars (2 Malden, 1 Reverend) also display pretty good build quality.

 

So from my perspective it seems that all countries are more than capable of putting out a good guitar but I do think that the quality coming out of Korea is a bit more consistent than China. Of course it also costs 20-30% more to have a guitar manufactured in Korea so I would expect the quality to be a bit better.

[dcooper830]

I read a lot of the MIK > MIC talk on the forums but I don't believe any of it.

 

I have both and they're both great.

 

And don't discount set up. I've ordered guitars online and when they arrived they felt terrible... like a cheap POS. But a simple bridge adjustment, truss rod tweak, and maybe a fret leveling made it into an amazing player.

 

So I wonder how much of this talk is generated by folks who's experience comes from merely walking into a music store and playing a guitar that hasn't been set up yet.

 

If anything........ I like the newer MIC Epiphone Les Pauls because the cutaway isn't so wide like on the older MIK versions. It's still a litter wider than on a Gibson.... but not too bad.

[poolshark]

In my experience, both make perfectly serviceable instrument-like products.

[soundcreation]

 

the early chinese stuff was fairly average, but some of the stuff that's come out of there recently has been pretty bloody good. Hagstrom for example are fanatstic. Even a lot of Epi's are quite good, but still a bit hit and miss. I have a Korean Vester Maniac from the mid 90's and it's flawless. Likewise i have an Edwards LP that is chinese/japanese and it's amazingly good.

 

 

Actually the edwards are a very interesting example of high QC as a company policy. From what I understand, they are made in china but with either some final assembly or inspection (or both) done in japan. But their quality is always touted everywhere I read. I have VERY rarely heard anything bad about them and most reviews are glowing.

 

So there you have a MIC guitar that might be one of the few examples of a higher end guitar made there, and it is good in all likelihood because ESP enforces strict standards on them.

[Grantus]

I think this is a thread for the minute, not the ages.

[d_dave_c]

From my experience, the Chinese guitars tend to have a thicker finish on them and the metal on the hardware has seemed more suspect.

 

I have had four made in china guitars and all of them had crap hardware and three of the four had ridiculously thick finishes. I poured some money into the one that didn't have the finish issues, but still never really bonded with it.

 

I have two made in Korea guitars - one ESP/LTD and one Ibanez. Both have solid hardware that can be adjusted without worry of stripping screws. The Ibanez finish is a touch better than the LTD, but both are leaps and bounds better than the MIC I've had.

 

I also have two Yamaha's that were made in Taiwan. Both of which are great guitars, period.

 

I also have two American guitars. Both of which are amazing guitars, period.

 

FWIW, I don't think I've played a MIC guitar that was made in the past couple years. I don't doubt that they have gotten better.

[orbm1]

In a point in my life, I sold ALL my MIC (7) guitars, and I only kept MIK (1), MIJ (1), and MIA (7) guitars.... my reasoning at the time was that the quality of the MIC guitars were not a par compared to the MIA, but not only that for me, the playability, sound, etc, were mediocre, they felt cheaply made, etc, etc... but mostly for me was the inconsistency in quality, one could be ok, the next one would be CRAP...

 

Recently, as many of you already know, I bought an Epiphone Joe Bonamassa Les Paul, Made in China... by my diagnosed-by-a-forumite OCD, I order two and I got two the same day (keeping only one) - in my visual inspection, they both were ALMOST the same, minimal differences, and only if you are too picky... Soundwise, in the clip I recorded, I found both to be very resonant, GREAT sustain, great playability, even well set up from the box! weightwise, accoriding to a household scale, they both weight almost the same, roughly 8.7 lb.... BOTH are really good guitars! which is not disconcerting, but surprising based on my priors experiences with MIC guitars...

 

These consistency experience with these MIC guitars, made me think that maybe the MIC guitar industry could be in a TURNING point... but for that only time will tell...imho

 

 

Omar

[kit_strong]

 

These consistency experience with these MIC guitars, made me think that maybe the MIC guitar industry could be in a TURNING point... but for that only time will tell...imho

 

Of course this means that their labor rates will also go up meaning companies will pull out and move their manufacturing to new markets (Indonesia, Vietnam, etc..) and the same cycle will begin again.

3 years from now we'll see quotes like the following

no way Id pay more than $100 for a Vietnamese guitar. Get a used MIC Epi LP of CL and swap the pickups

[_pete_]

 

And don't discount set up. I've ordered guitars online and when they arrived they felt terrible... like a cheap POS. But a simple bridge adjustment, truss rod tweak, and maybe a fret leveling made it into an amazing player. So I wonder how much of this talk is generated by folks who's experience comes from merely walking into a music store and playing a guitar that hasn't been set up yet.

 

 

I agree with this 100%.

If you know how to set up a guitar you realize there's is very little difference between most.

I can pick up a guitar, play it for a minute and know what needs to be adjusted or tweaked to make it play great.

Many folks pick up a poorly set up guitar at GC and write it off as a POS. A 15 minute set up could make it great. Playing 20 of the same model to find "the good one" is a bit of a fallacy. The good one is the one with a bit better setup.

 

I usually buy guitars online and have NEVER had one that couldn't be made into a great player.

[Elias Graves]

My experience is that MIK guitars were made in Korea, while MIC guitars were made in China.

 

EG

[xStonr]

It all depends to what specs the guitar is made to. There are MIK and MIC that are crap and some that are very fine indeed.

[Elias Graves]

Eastman. MIC by hand. Very sweet guitars.

 

EG

[scuzzo]

i dont play well enough for the fact of where the guitar is made to be a contributing factor.. i have guitars MIJ, MIK, MIC.. and i would say the ones made in china are the least refined.. the Matuschie.. MIJ sp made electra is perhaps the best made.. but the ones made in Korea is so close that it makes no odds.. i cant really tell when im playing either guitar that one it that much more quality then the other or the other..

 

just my experience.

[orbm1]

Let me put a twist to this thread...

 

Would you buy a MIC guitar if it is made by the TOP Luthiers from (enter your favorite MIA manufacturer here)... would it still be consider a MIC? although is made with MIA technology, materials, and craftsmanship???