THE Thread for THE AGES - What's your thoughts OR Experiences with MIK versus MIC?

[Brian Krashpad]

I think the days of "country-coding" guitars are rapidly fading. I have an old '80's MIJ Squier P-bass that's very nice, but I also have tons of very cool MIKs-- a Schecter, a DeArmond, a Brownsville, a couple Epi's (a Wild Kat and a T-bird), a Dano, etc. All of these are good solid price point guitars. I also have 2 MIC's, and have no complaints with either one, although both of these happen to have US-made pickups stock (a Ravelle Deluxe with Seymour Duncan Jazz/JB and a Gretsch Special Jet with Fender-made DeArmond 2000's).

 

Fwiw, reportedly Schecter's Ravelle production started out in China, moved to Korea for a couple years, and then was moved back to China. I have not played the MIK Ravelles but have seen reports by some who have played the orginal MICs and the MIKs, and actually preferred the Chinese ones.

 

At this point it's possible for a very good guitar to be turned out just about anywhere that someone wants to sink the specs and QC into.

[LaXu]

It entirely depends on the brand, model and type of guitar. I love my MIC Ibanez acoustic, it was by far the best sounding acoustic I found in stores over here in the under 800 euro range. All solid wood too.

 

The Chinese factories produce everything from cheap crap to higher end stuff and the fit and finish nowadays can be quite good. Usually the deficiencies are in materials or electronics. Same was true for MIK guitars.

[cratz2]

I have relatively little experience in the area having only owned maybe 15 MIK guitars, 5 MIC guitars and 5 MIJ guitars and everything else either American or Mexican, but I've played a lot of others.

 

My general impression from, say, 1978 on is the Japanese collectively tend to do things the 'right way' and the Koreans and Chinese collectively - esp from about 2003 on - tend to do things however well they are told to do them. I think those (1978 - 1986 roughly) Japanese guitars weren't trying to hit any specific price point as long as the guitars intended for US import were cheaper than the American counterparts. Pretty much all the 1990 - today Korean, then Chinese AND Korean, guitars were trying very specifically to hit a certain price point... whether that point was $150 or $300 or $1,000.

 

I've played some of those bolt-on Epis that right off the shelf were really, really bad. As in horrible. But I've played two of the recent Epi Slash guitars that, had they said Gibson on the headstock, would have sold almost immediately for $1,800.

 

The Chinese factories build up to their specification level. The difference is closing between the $600 price point and the best production guitars though.

[BoneNut]

Feels good, sounds good and looks good? I'll take it even if it was made by the painting elephants in Botswana.

It's all about the instrument itself and not who, when or where it was made. There isn't one guitar company in the world that uses pixie dust.

[_pete_]

 

Let me put a twist to this thread... Would you buy a MIC guitar if it is made by the TOP Luthiers from (enter your favorite MIA manufacturer here)... would it still be consider a MIC? although is made with MIA technology, materials, and craftsmanship???

 

 

Country of origin would make no difference to me. I would guess that MIA and MIC technology is really no different at all. The newer MIC factories may even have newer and more up to date technology.

Materials (as pointed out earlier) are selected to hit a price point. The Korean and Chinese factories are not supplied with the top materials since they are building to that price point.

Craftsmanship depends on the individual worker. Every country has great craftsmen and lousy craftsmen.

 

The thing is, very, very few production guitars from any major company are made by luthiers. They are made by regular people who are just working a 9-5 job.

Gibsons aren't made by luthiers, Fenders aren't made by luthiers, PRS's aren't made by luthiers, etc.

[GAS Man]

I think this is a thread for the minute, not the ages.

 

 

Okay

 

My only point with the hyperbolic title was "let's get it out there". There's just always so many hit and run comments on this topic.

[Poster Nutbag]

10 years ago I would have said MIJ>MIK>MIC. But these days the gap is closing rapidly, especially between MIK and MIC.

 

The Japanese pioneered many of the modern manufacturing and QC processes that let them churn out guitars with good QC at a good price point. But then Korea caught on, and now China has opened up and has adopted the same.

 

So these days it more comes down to the specific factory that manufacturing is contracted out to, rather than the actual country of origin, IMO.

 

Japan, China, Korea, Indonesia, even America - we're all capable of producing fantastic or crappy guitars. Heck, maybe India will even join in someday.

[Orange Jackson]

If it's any consolation, Korea has a higher standard of education then America does. So, it's likely that your Korean guitar was assembled by someone smarter then you.

[BoneNut]

 

Heck, maybe India will even join in someday.

 

 

They already have.

[DavidMgT]

I also think that the implied linearity in the comparison is flawed. Just because Japanese instruments were perceived as junk (I doubt this was ever the case though) and are now among the best in the world does not mean that MIK & MIC will follow the same trend. These are different companies residing in different cultures whose policies, labor and industrial organization are unique.

[Poster Nutbag]

 

They already have.

 

 

Do tell - a brand I don't know of that's manufactured in India?

[Brian Krashpad]

 

I also think that the implied linearity in the comparison is flawed. Just because Japanese instruments were perceived as junk (I doubt this was ever the case though) ...

 

 

No, there really were tons of '60's MIJ's that were awful dreadfully unplayable crap.

[Brian Krashpad]

Do tell - a brand I don't know of that's manufactured in India?

 

Some Squiers have been made there. Also the infamous "Givson" brand:

 

[golias]

Handy rule of thumb: Look at the cars coming out of a country during a given era, and it will give you a pretty good idea of how they are at all other types of manufacturing. For example, the Japanese were unquestionably making much better cars than America in the early 80s. For another example, the Koreans have gotten pretty good at making cars over the last decade.

 

But swerving to the specific comparison of MIK vs. MIC: Chinese guitars were a total joke to me ten years ago, and many of them still are, but they have RAPIDLY been getting better. When I closely inspect them, I still notice a higher percentage of little nit-picky issues. Mostly cosmetic corner-cutting or cheaper materials than I would prefer. But in terms of what matters most (how it plays), some of them have been not bad at all.

 

The best strat-copy I ever owned was made in Korea. A Peavey Predator Plus. Not only did it play like a dream, but it had these single-coil pups in the neck & mid positions which were clearly made by signing a deal with the devil. I'm sure if I were to pull them apart, I would discover that they are very ordinary ceramic-bar pickups, but they produce a simply wonderful sound which I've been unable to capture on any other guitar.

 

So for me... Yeah, the South Korean children still make the best guitars in the Asian mainland, but that's not to say that any given Chinese guitar has no chance of being better than any given Korean guitar. Those MIK Squier II strats from the 90s were well-built, but they were still heavy as boat anchors because of the plywood bodies, and the electronics were about as cheap as you will ever find.

[Poster Nutbag]

 

Some Squiers have been made there. Also the infamous "Givson" brand:

 

 

Oh, yeah, I forgot about the Squires..

 

And about the '60s Japanese guitars being horrible - yeah, this was before Japan's improvement of QC in the '70s, largely driven by the their automobile industry going into the U.S. So it seems that China has recently been having similar improvements, largely driven by Walmart.

[golias]

 

Do tell - a brand I don't know of that's manufactured in India?

 

 

The Squier Vintage Modified Telecaster is made in India, and you'll get A LOT of people here to tell you it's a nicer guitar than the MIM Fender Tele. (Including me. I had the good fortune of grabbing one off Craigslist last year. I was VERY impressed, but didn't really bond with the neck profile, so I sold it to a very good friend and he continues to rock the hell out of it nightly.)

[golias]

 

Oh, yeah, I forgot about the Squires.. And about the '60s Japanese guitars being horrible - yeah, this was before Japan's improvement of QC in the '70s, largely driven by the their automobile industry going into the U.S. So it seems that China has recently been having similar improvements, largely driven by Walmart.

 

 

It's more than Walmart driving it. Much more.

 

What turned China around was when Hong Kong was released to Chinese control. The UK chose to take a very "hands off" approach to managing Hong Kong when it was still one of their very last colonies, and it exploded into this libertarian-dream utopian jewel smack-dab in the middle of communist China. When the Chinese took Hong Kong back (per treaty agreement), they looked VERY closely at why Hong Kong was so much richer than any of their cities and decided to try a free-market experiment of their own.

 

So they designated a handful of cities along their coast as special free-enterprise zones, in which Beijing's usual industrial mandates & tax burdens would not fully apply. The result is that China is now becoming a MASSIVE global economic powerhouse, based almost entirely on the strength of those cities. Your phone was probably made there. As was your computer, your TV set, your stereo, probably your amp (unless you're a boutique cork-sniffer) and damn near everything else you own. And it's not just the US. China is making {censored} for EVERYBODY right now.

 

I predict that within ten years you'll see Chinese-made cars on US roads, too. And not just a few. They'll be a big player in the market.

[Poster Nutbag]

It's more than Walmart driving it. Much more.

 

Oh yeah, I know - it was half sarcasm, half didn't have the energy to type what you did.

[bruto]

I like the MIC Ibanez guitars, especially the ArtCore series. They seem really well made and finished. Pickups are boring, but that's normal for Ibanez.

 

Epiphone is about the same MIK vs MIC although Gibson has added quite a bit of variety since their move to China. Pickups are better on MIC Epis too. Still, nothing even comes close to the MIJ Epis - they're in a league of they're own.

[GAS Man]

^^ Yes, I tend to agree regarding the MIJ Epis.

 

Yes but which ones? If your talking about something like a MIJ Fender or Epi Elitist from the 90's on...then with all due respect those aren't even CLOSE to what I'm talking about. MIJ fenders for example are nice but are miles below Navigator or Van Zandt.

 

Yes, it's worth the clarification and when I said "My experience with MIJ guitars are also those of the early 90s and forward which I don't think are particularly anything exceptional." I was indeed referring to (or thinking of) MIJ Fenders since that is most often the reference used here on HCEG when talking about the MIJ guitars of yore, especially the original Squiers. But I agree that the MIJ does indeed vary with the manufacturer, that only makes sense. And I have bought 3 MIJ Epi Elitists and found them all to be quite good (a fourth had to be returned due to delamination). For the most part I think the Elitists do rival some of the Gibson line. As an example, I think the Epi Elite LP Standard I bought comes closer to sounding like the iconic "Standard" than some of the newer lower end LPs which now use more weight relieved construction and hotter pickups. But what I was recalling was some of the MIJ Fenders I bought that were sonically a bit on the dead side with anemic pickups. Now I would still give those all an A+ for fit and finish, it was just the tone that would leave a bit to desire.

 

The very last MIJ Fender I've bought is this little Mustang.

 

 

And I haven't found one thing wrong with it. The pickups may still be a bit anemic, but this time "it's anemic by model design", and when you switch to its "out of phase" setting it creates this neat hollow tone that is quite unique. But the big difference with this one is that the body wood works wonders with it combining the electronics with woods that gives it a very nice classic Mustang voice. But they're also charging a fair chunk of change for those these days and don't even toss in a gig bag. Maybe the MIJs are getting better again now that Fender has reduced the amount consigned to those factories to a few more specialized lines.

[soundcreation]

Fender Japan has always had many models most of which never see the light of day in the US.

 

http://www.fenderjapan.co.jp/products.html

 

I do hear quite often that one of the weaknesses about some of the MIJ fenders is the japanese pickups and electronics. But I don't really follow MIJ fenders so I don't know much about how true that is.

 

I believe the mustangs, and jaguars for the american market are produced in Japan so that's why those show up in stores, but from what I've heard is it's basically impossible to find MIJ strats or teles in US shops. Now as you can see fender japan make models from about 70k yen to 130+yen which means they basically cut into higher end MIM fender and into MIA factory fender. So fender has no incentive to import guitars that at the mexican level will make the mexican guitars look bad and at the MIA basic factory level will have guitars that make those look at minimum no better.

 

I mean look at one of the best spec'd MIJ strats here...

 

http://www.fenderjapan.co.jp/st54-vsp.html

 

That's easily MIA level aside from maybe the pickups. And a few of their options do have MIA pickups. How many USA factory strats give you a 2 piece ash nitro body for that price?

 

If that mustang were MIA would you still call it a fair chunk of change? Personally I think around a grand for an new MIJ guitar is pretty reasonable in terms of current guitar costs. It's not like building a guitar in Japan is any cheaper than building it in the US. I'd bet labor costs are higher.

[GAS Man]

 

If that mustang were MIA would you still call it a fair chunk of change? Personally I think around a grand for an new MIJ guitar is pretty reasonable in terms of current guitar costs. It's not like building a guitar in Japan is any cheaper than building it in the US. I'd bet labor costs are higher.

 

 

My personal reference, as I mentioned above, was in regards to the early 90s forward Fenders that were made for export to the U.S. My first Strat, Tele AND Jazzmaster were MIJ Fenders. Also bought a cheaper MIJ strat for my stepson which surprisingly turned out to sound much better than my earlier 90s MIJ strat, both in terms of resonance and pickups. I think that batch of strats was being blown out at an American Music store for around $360 or so. That was a deal.

 

Yeah, I know what you're saying about the price of MIJ goods these days, but if you compare their prices now to say the Highway One or American "Specials" they're about the same now. But I'd bet MIJ "blue collar" still pays less than "blue collar" does now in the US. Japan still has much more of a traditional class system ingrained which is now more foreign to a lot of the American work force which in general enjoy a much better lifestyle, plus the Japaneses government picks up 70% of health care expenses. But of course, MIJ still has more freight.

 

My first wife was also MIJ (actually so was I) but she was actually from Kobe and we met in college (I was just born over there since my father was USAF), but as my wife said who went from being "well off" in Japan to living with me as poor college students, "it's much more miserable to be poor in Japan than in the U.S." The expectations are different for the Japanese workers, but things I'm sure have changed a bit since my point of reference with their culture.

 

Although I still have the Strat and the Jazzmaster, the Telecaster and the MIJ wife are no longer in my current inventory. But I do have a son who was 50% assembled from MIJ parts.

[DaleH]

Great stuff coming out of china. The new factories are state on the art.

Guitars are just built to a price point or niche in the market.

They have sure upped the price on the Squier line. From guitars in the $200 $250 range to Classic vibes in the $350- $379.

[ashasha]

I think that each time the US farms out work overseas that there is a lot of crap that comes out of the factory for the first few years until all the kinks are worked out and then you see a serious improvement in the overall quality.

 

At this exact moment in time I would say that there is very little seperating all of these in terms of capability or construction. Fit and finish varies depending on the price point because that's going to dictate the amount of time invested in each unit. But between CNC machines and just better manufacturing methods you aren't likely to find something on the showroom floor that's a complete basketcase.

 

After that it's just the materials used. A $200 retail guitar is at a disadvantage to begin with. You can only invest so much in it in terms of materials. There are some good project guitars in there though. Once you get into the $400 and up range though it gets really interesting.

 

The MIK stuff had an upper hand for a few years there over the MIC stuff, but I've played some recent Epiphones that were really decent and the new Squiers are no joke.

 

I don't care where it's made or what's on the headstock, a good guitar is a good guitar.

[soundcreation]

 

My personal reference, as I mentioned above, was in regards to the early 90s forward Fenders that were made for export to the U.S. My first Strat, Tele AND Jazzmaster were MIJ Fenders. Also bought a cheaper MIJ strat for my stepson which surprisingly turned out to sound much better than my earlier 90s MIJ strat, both in terms of resonance and pickups. I think that batch of strats was being blown out at an American Music store for around $360 or so. That was a deal. Yeah, I know what you're saying about the price of MIJ goods these days, but if you compare their prices now to say the Highway One or American "Specials" they're about the same now. But I'd bet MIJ "blue collar" still pays less than "blue collar" does now in the US. Japan still has much more of a traditional class system ingrained which is now more foreign to a lot of the American work force which in general enjoy a much better lifestyle, plus the Japaneses government picks up 70% of health care expenses. But of course, MIJ still has more freight. My first wife was also MIJ (actually so was I) but she was actually from Kobe and we met in college (I was just born over there since my father was USAF), but as my wife said who went from being "well off" in Japan to living with me as poor college students, "it's much more miserable to be poor in Japan than in the U.S." The expectations are different for the Japanese workers, but things I'm sure have changed a bit since my point of reference with their culture. Although I still have the Strat and the Jazzmaster, the Telecaster and the MIJ wife are no longer in my current inventory. But I do have a son who was 50% assembled from MIJ parts.

 

 

LOL...good post!