Can you be good at music if you're not cocky?

[honeyiscool]

I've been wondering about this. I don't mean cocky as in being a dick to everyone. I mean cocky as in no matter what you say to other people, deep inside, you know you're pretty damn great and capable of doing anything anyone else can do.

 

Personally, I think a certain sense of cockiness is necessary if you want to make music more than just a hobby, which is fine, by the way, but I think a lot of us want a little more than that.

 

The majority of people, when they see a guy who can really play, they're impressed and enjoying themselves. Some people, though, even if part of themselves is just like everyone else, another part of them is like, {censored} him, I can do that, too. And then when they find out they can't, they work at it until they can. Of course, there are plenty of people who are cocky and then don't push themselves and screw those people, but I don't know too many truly humble people who push themselves to achieve at a high level. I mean, there are plenty of nice people who accomplish a lot, but once you really get to know them, most high level achievers tend to be privately a bit of a dick with a bit of a chip on their shoulder or some sort of insecurity, and that's fine.

 

I mean, isn't being a performing musician about being better than other people at some level anyway? It's saying that you'd rather be listening to me than doing something else because I have something great that I want to say, and I can say it better than other people you could be listening to right now. Even if what you bring to the table is that you're the ultimate manager of egos, you have to have something you can do better than other people or you're just a replaceable part, and nobody wants to be that. Anybody who would be happy with being a replaceable part never moves past that. Anyone who is extraordinary wants to be extraordinary.

 

Anyway, I was thinking these things yesterday. I was hanging out in the living room, having plugged into my Micro Cube that I had left out there so my roommate could practice. The battery had run out and I guess he never realized it because he never plugs in. When I asked him why, he said he was too embarrassed to practice out loud. Me, well, {censored}, I have recordings and videos of myself in the first few weeks of playing guitar because I do actually love myself that much, whereas he has been playing a lot longer and he's afraid to crank a Micro Cube. I had a {censored}ing JC-120 at that time. I practiced loud. Maybe this is why I progress faster than my roommate... because I have no shame and who cares about other people? Or maybe I have no shame because I progress faster? But isn't this a chicken and egg situation here? It's not like I thought I was any good when all I knew were barre chords. It's that I still thought I had something to say that other people would want to listen to, and that I knew that I would eventually improve.

 

I know I sound like some big ego in this post but really, I'm not. I think some people will relate to what I'm saying, and I have a feeling some of those people will credit these same attitudes with getting them further in music. I don't know, what do you think?

[DaveAronow]

Confucius say, man with hand in pocket, feel pretty cocky all day.

[Grantus]

I think there's a difference between knowing you're good at what you do and being cocky.

 

Cocky, to me, is an outward attitude. There are people who just come off as arrogant and too sure of themselves. Often, it's not the people who are truly great, but the people who like to think they are.

 

Confidence is a good thing. Too much confidence is cockiness.

 

I've met some incredibly talented people who are quite humble.

[cratz2]

No... I don't think you need to be cocky to develop some pretty serious musical skills, but you need to either be fearless or pretty cocky to get on stage and rip out a solo that is at the edge of your technical abilities.

 

I don't think 'practicing loud' as anything at all to do with how fast one progresses, but the desire to practice loud has EVERYTHING with the chances that you will rock a stage one day. They are related, but certainly not the same thing. Without a doubt, there are guitarists of amazing ability in the world that have never played through anything louder than a teeny solid state amp.

[honeyiscool]

 

I've met some incredibly talented people who are quite humble.

I've met some incredibly talented musicians that are quite humble, too, but I say that's an outward thing. A lot of talented musicians have learned to be humble as to facilitate working with other people and won't really reveal their true feelings to many people. I know a girl who is very gifted at music, can play every instrument, has absolute pitch, and sing, too, and to everyone around her, she's as humble as it gets. But when she talks to me, she's a different person because she knows that I'm not going to get my feelings hurt over some talent disparity.

 

On that thought, it does tick me off slightly when I'm at rehearsal and everybody's forgotten what we did last week, or when people take forever to learn songs. I don't ever make my frustrations visible, and I don't ever make people feel bad for being bad at it, but privately, I do wonder if this is due to lack of talent, lack of skill, or lack of willpower. See, lack of talent and skill, I'm able to live with, but I really get annoyed with people if I start feeling that in addition to talent and skill, they lack in willpower, too. But see, if I voiced that concern, I'd be a dick. If I shut up and smile, I'm considered a good bandmate. I choose to shut up and smile. That doesn't mean I don't ever somewhat pass judgment on people internally.

 

Most people won't reveal what makes them go internally, but I have to think you have to be a little bit off to dedicate a few hours a day to just being better at something for the sake of doing so.

[mediocreplayer]

Good post, though I don't know if I agree with everything. I am in a position to hang out with Nobel prize winners frequently, and most of these guys, I think, are indeed dicks and cocky. My opinion is that to be on that level you need to have either: 1) an incredible, truly spectacular, superhuman amount of talent, or 2) a still incredible amount of talent and a drive to do anything you can to reach your goal. Very few have #1, more have #2. #2 lends itself more to asshol-ish personalities.

 

And of course, there is this quote, by a very famous musician:

"Things are left out, about what bastards we were," Lennon explained in the interview. "You have to be a bastard to make it. That

[sxyryan]

I think you need a certain amount of confidence, which is like a tight rope between being humble and being cocky. This is especially true in genres where you are doing improv kind of stuff. You come up there with a sense of confidence, and the crowd will react.

[cephus]

I have known many cocky players who weren't really that good, but were pretty successful because they had the confidence required to book gigs and sell themselves. A humble guy who might tear up a guitar may never gig. People don't go door to door looking for musicians - especially guitar players.

 

Also, one thing I hate is FALSE HUMILITY. I am honest with people. I know I destroy all challengers. I don't have to be insulting to other guys. Hell I encourage them. But I know I can play. I'm not going to say "Oh, sorry that didn't sound very good" to make people compliment me. I hate that. If you believe in yourself, be honest with me. Wave your prick in my face if you think it's big - figuratively speaking, of course.

 

Sometimes people post videos here and I can't believe it. I can't believe that they think that sounds good enough to play in front of people. I don't post it. You get 100 people posting how awesome it was. It's a lie. Either that or those 100 people suck worse. If you are sitting at home and see one of these {censored} videos and think "Hey, I'm that good. Maybe I'm awesome too." You're not. You probably suck.

[cratz2]

I have known many cocky players who weren't really that good, but were pretty successful because they had the confidence required to book gigs and sell themselves. A humble guy who might tear up a guitar may never gig. People don't go door to door looking for musicians - especially guitar players. Also, one thing I hate is FALSE HUMILITY. I am honest with people. I know I destroy all challengers. I don't have to be insulting to other guys. Hell I encourage them. But I know I can play. I'm not going to say "Oh, sorry that didn't sound very good" to make people compliment me. I hate that. If you believe in yourself, be honest with me. Wave your prick in my face if you think it's big - figuratively speaking, of course. Sometimes people post videos here and I can't believe it. I can't believe that they think that sounds good enough to play in front of people. I don't post it. You get 100 people posting how awesome it was. It's a lie. Either that or those 100 people suck worse. If you are sitting at home and see one of these {censored} videos and think "Hey, I'm that good. Maybe I'm awesome too." You're not. You probably suck.

 

I don't always agree with everything you say, but that's pretty much 100% accurate in my opinion. Though I don't begrudge those that are still working on their skills.

 

And don't make me unzip my pants, man.

 

[arrowhen]

 

Though I don't begrudge those that are still working on their skills.

 

 

Shouldn't everyone still be working on their skills? I think it would be sad to pick up my guitar one day and suddenly realize I was done learning.

[photon9]

I know I destroy all challengers.

 

That is cocky!

[jtr654]

The one thing I know is if you walk into a audition ( when you're my age) you better be the best they've heard . Old guys have a much harder time getting gigs.

[lz4005]

You can definitely be a bass player.

Almost impossible to be a guitar player or singer. From my experience.

[photon9]

Also, one thing I hate is FALSE HUMILITY. I am honest with people. I know I destroy all challengers. I don't have to be insulting to other guys. Hell I encourage them. But I know I can play. I'm not going to say "Oh, sorry that didn't sound very good" to make people compliment me. I hate that. If you believe in yourself, be honest with me. Wave your prick in my face if you think it's big - figuratively speaking, of course.

 

The past year or so I've been mentally trying to remove any thought of whether I'm good or bad, and just play. It's not as easy to do as it sounds, but I've at times been able to strip away all those external, superficial things and just get to the core, just playing in the moment. It's really awesome when that happens!

 

I also try not to talk about my performance afterward. If someone wants to compliment me I've learned the best thing to do is just say thanks and smile. If they have some sort of objective criticism however, I'll probably take some time to chat with them for a while.

[GAS Man]

Well, Eric Johnson, for example, doesn't come across as "cocky", but yet he doesn't sell as well as other far less talented musicians. Maybe if you take his chops with say, Tommy Lee's cockiness, you'd have the ingredients for a major rock star.

[Grantus]

 

Also, one thing I hate is FALSE HUMILITY. I am honest with people. I know I destroy all challengers.

 

 

I'm pretty sure you don't destroy "all" challengers. I'm guessing there are a handful of guitar players out there better than you.

 

I never knew playing music was about destroying other people.

[photon9]

 

I never knew playing music was about destroying other people.

 

 

My thoughts exactly!

[gdsmithtx]

Confidence is good. Cockiness, on the other hand, is generally less good.

 

cock

[honeyiscool]

Also, one thing I hate is FALSE HUMILITY. I am honest with people. I know I destroy all challengers. I don't have to be insulting to other guys. Hell I encourage them. But I know I can play. I'm not going to say "Oh, sorry that didn't sound very good" to make people compliment me. I hate that. If you believe in yourself, be honest with me. Wave your prick in my face if you think it's big - figuratively speaking, of course. Sometimes people post videos here and I can't believe it. I can't believe that they think that sounds good enough to play in front of people. I don't post it. You get 100 people posting how awesome it was. It's a lie. Either that or those 100 people suck worse. If you are sitting at home and see one of these {censored} videos and think "Hey, I'm that good. Maybe I'm awesome too." You're not. You probably suck.

So where are your videos, big guy? If you are actually that confident, then why do you have to be at your best to be seen by others?

[cheezit66]

 

I never knew playing music was about destroying other people.

 

 

OP's point is: some successful musicians do appear to 'know' that, and it seems to contribute to their success. You may not believe it, but they do, and it's working for them.

 

If you look at people at the top of creative fields, they tend to have a strong competitive slant to what they do. They just do, whether that fits with a woo-woo hippie ideal of self-expression or not.

[honeyiscool]

Yeah, I don't think playing music is about destroying other people, but at some level, it's about being better than someone else at something if you ever want anything to come from it.

[BydoEmpire]

I see where you're coming from, but I disagree. I think there's a big difference between self confidence and being cocky. I got to meet Steve Vai briefly and he was as down to earth as you can get. Not cocky at all, yet obviously full of self confidence. You don't have to rub it in people's faces or go overboard trying to show everyone how great you are - to me, that's cockiness. You can still be humble and be great. You've got to believe in yourself, though.

 

 

Some people, though, even if part of themselves is just like everyone else, another part of them is like, {censored} him, I can do that, too. And then when they find out they can't, they work at it until they can

I don't think that's being cocky, i think that's having the drive to set and achieve a goal. It's less about "{censored} him" it's about "I can do that, too." When I hear a player that's really awesome, it makes me either want to practice like hell or just give it up. That's it. I refuse to quit, so I practice like hell. It's not really about that player, it's about what I want to do. I don't think "{censored} Guthrie Govan" I think "wow, I need to practice because I want to be able to do that, too."

 

 

...isn't being a performing musician about being better than other people at some level anyway?

Not at all. I want to perform because I love music, I want people to share in the joy of the music, I want my music heard, and I want to touch people the way other musicians have touched me. It's not about being better than other people at all. I want to be good so I can play the music I enjoy, and enjoy the music I play.

 

 

you have to have something you can do better than other people or you're just a replaceable part, and nobody wants to be that

It's not about being "better" it's about being unique, your creative expression on the instrument. It's also about doing it. I'm better than 1,000,000 guitarists, but then, there are 1,000,000 guitarists out there better than me. But I'm the one up on that stage on that night, and I'm the one doing it for myself and the audience. Sure, there are better players, but I'm the one up there. It's also why all these "whose the better guitarist" arguments are dumb. Better at what? A specific technique? Applying that technique in a specific genre? Fastest at that specific technique in a specific genre? It's endless and subjective.

 

Just my 2c. Interesting discussion.

[Grantus]

 

OP's point is: some successful musicians do appear to 'know' that, and it seems to contribute to their success. You may not believe it, but they do, and it's working for them. If you look at people at the top of creative fields, they tend to have a strong competitive slant to what they do. They just do, whether that fits with a woo-woo hippie ideal of self-expression or not.

 

 

The destroying comment wasn't in response to the original post, but to cephus' comment that his guitar playing destroys all comers. I highly doubt that.

[aenemated]

 

I see where you're coming from, but I disagree. I think there's a big difference between self confidence and being cocky. I got to meet Steve Vai briefly and he was as down to earth as you can get. Not cocky at all, yet obviously full of self confidence. You don't have to rub it in people's faces or go overboard trying to show everyone how great you are - to me, that's cockiness. You can still be humble and be great. You've got to believe in yourself, though. I don't think that's being cocky, i think that's having the drive to set and achieve a goal. It's less about "{censored} him" it's about "I can do that, too." When I hear a player that's really awesome, it makes me either want to practice like hell or just give it up. That's it. I refuse to quit, so I practice like hell. It's not really about that player, it's about what I want to do. I don't think "{censored} Guthrie Govan" I think "wow, I need to practice because I want to be able to do that, too." Not at all. I want to perform because I love music, I want people to share in the joy of the music, I want my music heard, and I want to touch people the way other musicians have touched me. It's not about being better than other people at all. I want to be good so I can play the music I enjoy, and enjoy the music I play. It's not about being "better" it's about being unique, your creative expression on the instrument. It's also about doing it. I'm better than 1,000,000 guitarists, but then, there are 1,000,000 guitarists out there better than me. But I'm the one up on that stage on that night, and I'm the one doing it for myself and the audience. Sure, there are better players, but I'm the one up there. It's also why all these "whose the better guitarist" arguments are dumb. Better at what? A specific technique? Applying that technique in a specific genre? Fastest at that specific technique in a specific genre? It's endless and subjective. Just my 2c. Interesting discussion.

 

 

came to basically say exactly this.

[honeyiscool]

Bydo, I think if you are creative and have a unique voice, then that does make you better than other musicians in a certain context, and therefore you're no longer a replaceable part because you can't be replaced by someone who can do everything you can do.

 

When I say better or worse, I don't mean in a universal sense. I always mean in a necessary context where one skill or characteristic might be more necessary than something else and you can provide it better than others can. Eric Clapton's a great guitarist, but there are things I can do that he can't do. Therefore, in certain contexts, I am a better musician. In the larger scheme of things, I am not, and I'm certainly not as accomplished, and I recognize that. That's why I say there's got to be "something" you can do better than other people. It's up to you to define that something, but you have to have it.

 

And why do you get the feeling of you should practice harder or give up when you see a great player? That's an act of comparison, which isn't competition but it is the start of one. An average fan just appreciates the display of skill. By the very act of relating someone else's skills to your own skill progression, you're being goal oriented, driving yourself to be a better musician.

 

As much as Vai might be a humble person, do you honestly believe there's nothing cocky about the way he is? He is humble to the outside world, sure, but just listen to how he plays. He plays in a way that shows off his superior skills, it is a showy, cocky way to play music IMO. There's nothing wrong with it, it is his style, but if he can stay in the pocket for an entire show, he doesn't show it, and why should he? He doesn't distinguish himself as much unless he plays in his chosen style.

 

And lastly, I'm not trying to discredit you or anything, but if you have the goal of being heard, affecting people, and touching people's hearts, that's pretty arrogant at some level. However, the fact that you have that view is why you can be successful at it. If you didn't think that way, and most people don't, you'd never achieve it.