If electric guitar wood type really affects tone, where's the proof??

[Freeman Keller]

If anyone cares, here is the thread that W is referring to

 

http://www.harmonycentral.com/forum/forum/guitar/acapella-41/31228275-tone-wood-followup

 

I was wrong that the guitars had different pickups - as I reread it W says they all have mini humbuckers. But they are very different in several ways besides just the tone wood (two are Tele's, one chambered, one solid. that would imply that that they have 25.5 scale and bolt on necks). The other is a "dot" which I take to mean a Gibson ES-335 - semi hollow with a big hunk of wood in the middle, 24.5 scale, glued set neck, f holes..... - I managed to guess the Dot correctly but I will argue again that what I was hearing was the size, shape, construction, air chamber and everything else about that guitar - not the tone wood.

 

As I said in the thread, I greatly appreciated all the work that W did and I can certainly tell a difference between the three guitars. But I can also tell the difference between an apple, an orange and a kumquat.

 

[MDMachiavelli]

 

 

That's exactly what I did. Took three different guitars, with the exact same mini Humbucker pickups from the same manufacturer, identical ohms, same value pots, same pickup distances from strings, same strings, same string height etc. They all had TOM bridges, and all had Brass nuts.

 

Neck and body woods were different. two were semi hollow.

 

The three clean clips were easy to tell they were different guitars. Driven not so easy. I've done the same comparison three times here over a 6 year period. The last one before the humbuckers was with three Strats with different bodies and necks and the neck pickup were exactly the same.

 

In all those tests, those who understood wood does influence tone understood why they sounded different. The ones who knew nothing about electronics argued tone came from the pickups and not from the wood and would begin to question the comparison instead of investigating their own understanding of what they know.

 

Some went as far as accusing me of jacking with the recording to make them sound different. That's when I said to myself, why am I bothering to spend hours making a scientific comparison to such fools gave up making such posts. Well, there were some who were curious and didn't have preconceived voodoo myths drilled into them who enjoyed learning some basics, but this is all kindergarten stuff you either learn and have an aptitude for or you don't.

 

 

In the big scheme of things, Knowing how a guitar makes good tone doesn't matter so long as you can personally identify it when you hear it. Even if a guitar doesn't produce great tones, it comes down to how well you can play the darn thing. If you can hear a player on a crappy AM pocket radio with zero fidelity and say, yea that guy can play, that's all that matters.

 

Everything else is just there to help you do it comfortably. If you've gone the route of buying the best gear, the best pedals, the best amps, the best speakers, you name it. Walk out on stage and have some kid playing a beat up chunk of firewood with a toy amp smoke your ass, then you know, gear doesn't mean diddley squat if you can't play it well.

 

Good gear gives you the potential to play as good as any star does and any star can take your gear and make it sound great. and when all the dust settles you still face the fact, you cant buy and you cant steal raw musical talent.

 

You can spend a lifetime chasing that dragons tail and you always wind up in the same place. If you want to sound the best, you have to work harder at it then anyone else, just like an athlete or an actor does to be the best in their professions. Its takes great physical dexterity and an educated mind in music and a little edge keeping ahead of the pack knowing the latest music happening and you can get out there and hang ten on any stage.

 

Those who understand such things already know without having to be given examples of wood types vs pickup types. They pick an instrument up and its either worse, better or equal to what they are used to. Those who don't understand usually aren't worth the trouble the challenge to their beliefs made in a comparison like that provides them. Out of all musicians, Guitarists are only second to lead singers when it comes to having inflated egos. If they have spent years thinking pickups are what create tone, then its best to just let them believe what they want.

 

I'm real easy to convince. I don't care what kind of music people play so long as its played well. The more oddball the better. So long as they can smoke that guitar with whatever style that suits them, I could care less if they think Elvis was an alien or the moon landings were a hoax. If they make good music with what they got, Then I got ears to listen and I'll support their efforts 100%. If on the other hand, its all bluff, I'll respect their right to bluff others into thinking they are great.

 

 

 

I gotcha, and I understand what you are saying I just would like to see it done in person with anyone who offering the opinion on the sound not having any idea.

 

I guess I'm really wondering how many people who say they can actually tell the difference could if put in a controlled environment. Would it be safe to guess less?

[knotty]

 

 

That's exactly what I did. Took three different guitars, with the exact same mini Humbucker pickups from the same manufacturer, identical ohms, same value pots, same pickup distances from strings, same strings, same string height etc. They all had TOM bridges, and all had Brass nuts.

 

Neck and body woods were different. two were semi hollow.

 

The three clean clips were easy to tell they were different guitars. Driven not so easy. I've done the same comparison three times here over a 6 year period. The last one before the humbuckers was with three Strats with different bodies and necks and the neck pickup were exactly the same.

 

In all those tests, those who understood wood does influence tone understood why they sounded different. The ones who knew nothing about electronics argued tone came from the pickups and not from the wood and would begin to question the comparison instead of investigating their own understanding of what they know.

 

Some went as far as accusing me of jacking with the recording to make them sound different. That's when I said to myself, why am I bothering to spend hours making a scientific comparison to such fools gave up making such posts. Well, there were some who were curious and didn't have preconceived voodoo myths drilled into them who enjoyed learning some basics, but this is all kindergarten stuff you either learn and have an aptitude for or you don't.

 

 

In the big scheme of things, Knowing how a guitar makes good tone doesn't matter so long as you can personally identify it when you hear it. Even if a guitar doesn't produce great tones, it comes down to how well you can play the darn thing. If you can hear a player on a crappy AM pocket radio with zero fidelity and say, yea that guy can play, that's all that matters.

 

Everything else is just there to help you do it comfortably. If you've gone the route of buying the best gear, the best pedals, the best amps, the best speakers, you name it. Walk out on stage and have some kid playing a beat up chunk of firewood with a toy amp smoke your ass, then you know, gear doesn't mean diddley squat if you can't play it well.

 

Good gear gives you the potential to play as good as any star does and any star can take your gear and make it sound great. and when all the dust settles you still face the fact, you cant buy and you cant steal raw musical talent.

 

You can spend a lifetime chasing that dragons tail and you always wind up in the same place. If you want to sound the best, you have to work harder at it then anyone else, just like an athlete or an actor does to be the best in their professions. Its takes great physical dexterity and an educated mind in music and a little edge keeping ahead of the pack knowing the latest music happening and you can get out there and hang ten on any stage.

 

Those who understand such things already know without having to be given examples of wood types vs pickup types. They pick an instrument up and its either worse, better or equal to what they are used to. Those who don't understand usually aren't worth the trouble the challenge to their beliefs made in a comparison like that provides them. Out of all musicians, Guitarists are only second to lead singers when it comes to having inflated egos. If they have spent years thinking pickups are what create tone, then its best to just let them believe what they want.

 

I'm real easy to convince. I don't care what kind of music people play so long as its played well. The more oddball the better. So long as they can smoke that guitar with whatever style that suits them, I could care less if they think Elvis was an alien or the moon landings were a hoax. If they make good music with what they got, Then I got ears to listen and I'll support their efforts 100%. If on the other hand, its all bluff, I'll respect their right to bluff others into thinking they are great.

 

 

Spoken like, and as, someone who has been a service engineer all their life.

 

As Freeman says. Your long winded test was a million miles from "scientific" and proved sweet FA about anythIng.

How does a discusion about wood effect on tone morph into you infering you are some sort of super player?

Especially one who now says they are a video pro but has no videos of themselves playing.

[knotty]

 

This was exactly what Hellion posted in the clip in post #154 on page 11. Two guitars as identical as possible - same shape, scale, electronics, played thru the same amp with the identical picks. Same first position E chord. I can hear a difference in the clean sound - I've got to admit the dirty ones are mostly just noise.

 

That is the first time I have actually seen this done for electric guitars (I'm sure there are others but this one is pretty conclusive). Forumite WRG tried to do this last summer but IMHO his methodology was flawed - there were too many other differences to draw any conclusions about tone wood. It is relatively easy to do with acoustics - comparing a standard braced D-18 to a D-28 is basically about mahogany vs rosewood. Its just not that easy in the electric world to find two guitars that are twins except for the tonewood.

 

I am working on cleaning up some clips that we did of two guitars that I built - they are both Les Paul shapes with identically the same wood and pups, one is chambered and one is not. A friend played them thru the same clean amp, I recorded the session. We can both hear the difference but I'm having trouble extracting good audio clips to post here.

 

I build guitars, both acoustic and electrics, and I'm convinced that wood characteristics can have a small impact on the sound of the guitar - I think it is mostly overshadowed by other factors but Hellions clip convinces me that it is there.

 

 

For completion they should have had 2 more guitars, one of each wood type.

If they had sounded identcal to their twin we would have had proof of concept and the differences between the 2 woods may have had some meanìng. Without showing they could repeat identical tone withe the same type of wood body, their test means nothing.

 

I believe wood does make a tiny difference but have never seen anything approaching proof of it.

[Mr Temporary]

I think I responded to a similar thread a long time ago, so my apologies if I'm duplicating it.

 

Years ago at a Guild of American Luthiers convention, StewMac donated three Strat necks, identical pickups, and all the parts required to build three guitars using different body woods. IIRC, they were Ash, Alder, and Pawlonia, and all the same shape.. They were all played through the same amp by the same players, so there was plenty of opportunity for critical listening by a whole room full of luthiers.

 

The Ash and Alder sounded very similar, and in my experience I could tell you that they sounded slightly different, but to be truthful I didn't get it right all the time. The Pawlonia was the only one that I recall was easy to differentiate between the three. I left the experience feeling that I could hear the difference between three very similar guitars, but that I couldn't always tell you in a completely blind test what the body woods were if the test were expanded to all the usual body materials commonly used.

 

The other thing I got from the experience was the discussion about the physical properties of Pawlonia, which the builders said was so soft that they joked that they someone could almost push the pickguard screws in. That left me and others wondering if the differences we were hearing were more of a product of the mechanical properties of the wood rather than their impact on the audio spectrum of an input signal (the string's vibration). In other words, the properties of the neck/body join, bridge mounting, string mounting, etc.

 

I suppose that a more scientific study could be done, but it might be just as useful to do a statistical sampling of a large manufacturer that is churning out thousands of guitars a year, with very similar components and various body woods. It could be an extension of an existing quality control sample process. Even then there is going to be some variation, including minute differences in setup, pickup height, and variability in materials. Somebody would have to setup a rig to precisely test each guitar individually, and capture the output on various measurement instruments. Doesn't sound like that much fun, but I'm sure somebody could probably get a government grant to set it up and do it.

[hellion_213]

I dare say that, in a controlled environment - acoustic panels, and bass traps, etc. - with no compression of sound due to computer files, the difference would be More noticeable, thereby Increasing the number of people that Know the difference, though they may still lie to themselves.

[MDMachiavelli]

That's my whole point that you are missing. If they were either blindfolded or had their backs to the guitars and amps they couldn't lie to themselves. they would not know to lie. Do you understand what I'm saying.

[MDMachiavelli]

Hellion, I watched the video that you suggested and it was interesting, but I would to see something a little more indepth with more than two guitars.

 

I think Knotty made a very good point, if you would have had four guitars it may have been somewhat more convincing. I would have like to have been able to see how much two of those same guitars would have sounded. If they would have had one more of each and each one sounded very similar to its counterpart that would have been fairly convincing.

 

Remember, I said in the beginning that I didn't know either way so I'm not doubting or disputing what you claim. I', just curious.

 

Also as I said earlier I would like to see if anyone could tell the differences in wood tone not knowing anything about the guitar. Blindfolded so to speak.

[hellion_213]

Wrg - I remember your video, pretty sure I weighed in on the thread, been a long time, so I may have to search for it later.

 

I imagine amp type would make a huge impact on the amount of noticeable difference. A solid state may make the difference only slightly noticeable, while a tube amp would most likely be the best choice

[Idunno]

It's the truth, though. Even though sparks and wood never affect each other whatsoever, wood being a natural isolator (insulator), there's a species of Ash that didn't get the memo. It's called Balderd Ash. Heard it from a reliable source.

[GAS Man]

It's the truth, though. Even though sparks and wood never affect each other whatsoever, wood being a natural isolator (insulator), there's a species of Ash that didn't get the memo. It's called Balderd Ash. Heard it from a reliable source.

 

"Balderd Ash" always makes the loudest sound.

[hellion_213]

That last thought is interesting

[AJ6stringsting]

I had a Carvin M22SD in a box for years, I tried it in a 1971 Gibson flying V with a Mahogany body.... it didn't sound good to my ears.

5 years ago, i put it in a Maple body Super Strat with a Floyd Rose , S,S,H configuration ..... the pickup replaced my Dimarzio Evolution, it was way better sounding to my ears.

Tone is a personal preference and that changes with time !!!!

[badpenguin]

I agree completely! I love the Ibanez V7/V8 combo, but NOT in basswood guitars. toss them in mahogany, and they are wonderful!

[badpenguin]

Never willingly listened to Zepplin. So I never paid attention to what he played.

[MDMachiavelli]

Yeah, I'm not saying that they should be able to listen to a guitar oh that's ash, or that's rosewood. But if you blindfolded someone and play 8 guitars and the guitars were:

 

1. Ash

2. Pine

3. Rosewood

4. Pine

5. Ash

6. Ash

7. Rosewood

8. Ash

 

I would like to know if the person listening could tell that 1, 5, 6 and 8 sounded like the same would, and the same for 3 & 7.

 

If you were to do something like that and they were able to notice the differences then I would be very convinced.

[Steve2112]

hellion- I'm no expert but I would tend to disagree. a tube amp imparts a very noticeable quality in your tone. Look at it this way...if you plug your guitar straight into the board or console...how's it sound? Some people use it to good effect- but the tone is most certainly very raw guitar. Most don't like it- BUT! that is the way the guitar sounds all by itself. The solid state stuff is quite similar. The tubes impart a very full rich satisfying tone. If I were doing a true test, I think I'd wish to eliminate as many factors as possible.

 

A "good" solid state amp or better yet direct to console or recording software would give you JUST the guitar alone. No tubes, no mics, no room acoustics etc.

[hellion_213]

I see your point Steve, that's exactly why we tube swap. Solid state is no different really though, you will ultimately hear the speaker's voicing, and straight in gives you a compressed digitized sound. Room acoustics, mics, etc will all color sound as well, But....if all things are consistent, Same room, same amp, same pickups, guitar shape, scale, strings, etc, the differences should still be prevalent and equally colored. I guess a good way to prove/disprove would be to do multiple side by side comparisons changing the amp, the room, and direct to board - demonstrating any difference. It is not inconceivable that one, tube/solid-state/board would make any difference more apparent than the others.

[knotty]

I see your point Steve, that's exactly why we tube swap. Solid state is no different really though, you will ultimately hear the speaker's voicing, and straight in gives you a compressed digitized sound. Room acoustics, mics, etc will all color sound as well, But....if all things are consistent, Same room, same amp, same pickups, guitar shape, scale, strings, etc, the differences should still be prevalent and equally colored. I guess a good way to prove/disprove would be to do multiple side by side comparisons changing the amp, the room, and direct to board - demonstrating any difference. It is not inconceivable that one, tube/solid-state/board would make any difference more apparent than the others.

 

Good point. Solid state would seem the most consistent test but there is good argument for tubes. Maybe the the particular harmonics that give a difference are more pronounced with tubes. Who knows?

[Steve2112]

 

Good point. Solid state would seem the most consistent test but there is good argument for tubes. Maybe the the particular harmonics that give a difference are more pronounced with tubes. Who knows?

 

 

And agreed as well. I thought about it as I wrote it. Just that with a "scientific" experiment, if you will allow me to me liberal with the term in this regard, You should remove as many variables as possible. We've obviously talked about the exact same pups (as much as possible), hardware, fingers etc etc.

 

If nothing else but for psychological reasons. We've got to see the wood on the graph, so to speak.

 

Having said that- I personally don;t really care too much about the subject- maybe just enough to chime in about keeping good scientific principle. I am in the camp that if it sounds good to you- go with it! If it dunt- don't. I have a hard enough time on the rare occasion of pup and speaker swaps to add in the misery of worrying about wood choice.

 

_ and the software won;t let me change "principle" to procedure". arg.

[aliensporebomb]

One thing I noticed about wood - fingerboard wood which I previously felt wouldn't change tone that much actually ends up having more of an effect than I thought. Specifically, ebony gives a nice percussive snap to the notes versus rosewood which has a softer overall attack.

 

It might be better if I make recordings of the difference but...

[hellion_213]

Agreed, that would be a more than acceptable test. Now, who around here has eight strats, three different wood types?

[hellion_213]

Thats what I'm thinking, but don't have two guitars the same minus wood to see

[MDMachiavelli]

I was just making a point. i would like to see how people who can hear a difference actually respond to such a test.

[wankdeplank]

I think so. I don't really know the science behind it but in A/Bing some humbucker guitars recently, playing through my Solid State amps (DOD and Peavey Bandit) just didn't bring out the distinctive tones near as well as my Fender Pro Jr with tubes did.