How do you leave a band gracefully?

[wades_keys]

 

Ummm... You have empirical evidence to back that up?

 

Yeah, I gave some already.

 

Does the name "Duke Robillard" ring a bell to you?

 

Well, it does down here. Dude's a legend around these parts - he used to live right down the street from me, and still comes here regularly to gig.

 

One of the bigger bands around here is called "The Predators". They play guitar-oriented blues, and do it well.

 

Jim Porter's tavern, one of the biggest venues around. Go check out their calendar. See how many blues bands are on there?

 

And go check out the website for "Guitar Emporium". They're nationally known.

 

This is a guitar town. And don't even get me started on Bluegrass. Have you ever been to a Bluegrass jam? I have. I've been to several. You'll get some of the finest Bluegrass pickers IN THE WORLD playing right here in the ville, to small but very appreciative audiences.

[Vito Corleone]

 

This is a guitar town.

 

 

Must be why they have such a hard time keeping those BTO records in stock around there....

[wades_keys]

Must be why they have such a hard time keeping those BTO records in stock around there....

LOL.

 

I wouldn't know, really. But like I said, some of my older mentors back in the day were pretty keen on Randy: he evolved Clapton's style.

 

I guess Kmart doesn't know {censored} about Mississippi either; no doubt he'd ask one of them to give "empirical evidence" that people down there really love and appreciate blues guitar.

 

I mean {censored} dude, KY is the home of bluegrass. What the h*ll more do you need than that? There ain't even DRUMS in bluegrass. It's all strings.

[kmart]

 

Yeah, I gave some already. Does the name "Duke Robillard" ring a bell to you? Well, it does down here. Dude's a legend around these parts - he used to live right down the street from me, and still comes here regularly to gig. One of the bigger bands around here is called "The Predators". They play guitar-oriented blues, and do it well. Jim Porter's tavern, one of the biggest venues around. Go check out their calendar. See how many blues bands are on there? And go check out the website for "Guitar Emporium". They're nationally known. This is a guitar town. And don't even get me started on Bluegrass. Have you ever been to a Bluegrass jam? I have. I've been to several. You'll get some of the finest Bluegrass pickers IN THE WORLD playing right here in the ville, to small but very appreciative audiences.

 

 

Really? That's the best you can come up with to make your point?

 

Those are all really nice things to talk about, and I'm sure they're all fantastic guitarists, but they don't in any way shape or form show anything resembling proof that the SOUTH understands and appreciates guitar more than anywhere else, which is what you said, and what I'm calling bull{censored} on.

 

Your premise, simply put, is retarded.

 

Your 'proof' of that premise above, simply put, is anything but.

 

You gave me the names of a bunch of people who play guitar. Whoopee for you.

What does that prove?

 

Never said nobody in your podunk world can't play guitar well.

But that's not what you claimed, either.

 

In any case, I can give you 500 names of amazing guitar players from above the Mason-Dixon line. Hell I can give you the name of 500 world-class and world reknown players from Chicago or New York (Or 1 from Kenosha, WI, for that matter) that 'understand and appreciate' guitar as well as or better than any example you can give.

And none of it proves a single thing.

 

In the end, claiming that the South has some sort of better understanding of guitar than any other geography on the planet is simply ignorant yapping.

[kmart]

I guess Kmart doesn't know {censored} about Mississippi either; no doubt he'd ask one of them to give "empirical evidence" that people down there really love and appreciate blues guitar.

 

So you're just a typical internet douche who doesn't understand his own words, huh?

 

You didn't claim that "...people down there really love and appreciate blues guitar".

 

You claimed that "It seems that in the South, guitar is much more appreciated and "understood" than in other parts of the country."

 

There's a massive difference between the two.

I have no desire to get into a pissing match with you about this, but if you can't tell the difference between those two quotes of YOURS, it seems that the person who doesn't know {censored} about something is you, and I should be asking for empirical evidence that you understand the English language.

 

Maybe you didn't actually mean to say that the South understands guitar more than elsewhere. If so, be a man and admit that's not what you meant.

 

Until then, that's what you said, and all those words do is make you look completely ignorant.

[wades_keys]

LMAO

 

Whatever you say buddy. I guess David Grissom and Duke Robillard both living here in the 90's ain't enough for you. Hey, it's whatever.

 

I've spent my whole life here. I gig here. I learned how to play music from cats that live here. I know the scene better than you ever could.

 

Yeah, we even have a blues club called Stevie Ray's that books a lot of nationals. You ought to stop by sometime, hang out there and at Guitar Emporium and talk guitar. There's a lot of mighty fine pickers here, including the best that Bluegrass has to offer. I'm sure they could show you a few things you've never seen.

 

It's too bad we lost the Bluegrass fest to Indy, but that's because the Belvedere has structural flaws and the turnout was too big to host anywhere else. I've seen Bill Monroe twice, I've hung out backstage with "New Grass Revival", and I've watched THOUSANDS of people enjoy that music.

 

Let's see YOUR TOWN host the Bluegrass fest: let's see what kind of turnout you get.

[Vito Corleone]

 

LOL. I wouldn't know, really. But like I said, some of my older mentors back in the day were pretty keen on Randy: he evolved Clapton's style.

 

All I'm saying is---remember this goes back to talking about stage presence, and you used Bachman's kick-ass guitar playing as a defense for his lack of presence otherwise---

 

is that there are certainly guitar-playing front men for which their guitar playing drives their presence: SRV, Clapton, Hendrix. And, to a certain degree, if you're covering those songs, playing the guitar parts as well (or close to) as they did will drive a cover band's stage presence as well.

 

I just can't put Bachman in that catagory. A lot of bands play "Takin' Care of Business". And it will pack a dance floor. But nobody is turning around to watch the guitarist play the guitar solo the way they might if the band was doing "Purple Haze" or "Panama". BTO, their hit songs, and Bachman himself, simply aren't in that catagory.

[wades_keys]

 

All I'm saying is---remember this goes back to talking about stage presence, and you used Bachman's kick-ass guitar playing as a defense for his lack of presence otherwise--- is that there are certainly guitar-playing front men for which their guitar playing drives their presence: SRV, Clapton, Hendrix. And, to a certain degree, if you're covering those songs, playing the guitar parts as well (or close to) as they did will drive a cover band's stage presence as well. I just can't put Bachman in that catagory. A lot of bands play "Takin' Care of Business". And it will pack a dance floor. But nobody is turning around to watch the guitarist play the guitar solo the way they might if the band was doing "Purple Haze" or "Panama". BTO, their hit songs, and Bachman himself, simply aren't in that catagory.

 

Why don't you go watch some of the old videos and judge for yourself?

 

Randy is and was a HELL of a good guitarist. Here's that "Lookin' out for #1" you talked about. Randy is playing the licks. There's also some instrumental stuff floating around, real jazzy intricate stuff that they did; I wish I knew what it was called cuz I guarantee you you'd change your opinion if you heard it.

 

[video=youtube;uyGiGXSeJ_s]

[Vito Corleone]

Why don't you go watch some of the old videos and judge for yourself?

 

It has nothing to do with old videos. Like I said when I first mentioned Bachman to Tim7strings, it isn't 1974. Having the stage presence of Bachman in 1974 is no defense for lack of stage presence TODAY. The other guys I mentioned, their guitar playing/front man skills carry forward in a manner that simply covering the songs well can be useful for a modern cover band's stage presence. Playing BTO is just playing some old song. Nobody much knows, or cares, who played the song originally and have zero connection to any stage presence the guitarist did or didn't have in 1974.

 

Tim7Strings rattled off a bunch of cover tunes sang by rather boring looking (or at least visually unmemorable to anyone today) guitarist/front men as if that was somehow a defense for having weak front man skills in a cover band TODAY. It doesn't work that way. If you're boring to look at while playing "Rock 'n Me", using "hey, I look pretty much EXACTLY like Steve Miller did when HE sang it!" is no excuse and isn't going to buy your band ANYTHING.

[wades_keys]

Here's Randy showing how to play "Cannonball Rag" on acoustic:

 

[video=youtube;xtK0sm7dbyQ]

[wades_keys]

It has nothing to do with old videos. Like I said when I first mentioned Bachman to Tim7strings, it isn't 1974. Having the stage presence of Bachman in 1974 is no defense for lack of stage presence TODAY. The other guys I mentioned, their guitar playing/front man skills carry forward in a manner that simply covering the songs well can be useful for a modern cover band's stage presence. Playing BTO is just playing some old song. Nobody much knows, or cares, who played the song originally and have zero connection to any stage presence the guitarist did or didn't have in 1974. Tim7Strings rattled off a bunch of cover tunes sang by rather boring looking (or at least visually unmemorable to anyone today) guitarist/front men as if that was somehow a defense for having weak front man skills in a cover band TODAY. It doesn't work that way. If you're boring to look at while playing "Rock 'n Me", using "hey, I look pretty much EXACTLY like Steve Miller did when HE sang it!" is no excuse and isn't going to buy your band ANYTHING.

What I'm saying is Tim ain't no Randy Bachman. That's no slam on him. Randy was great, and had guitar fans in the audience.

 

What I'm also saying is you need to go deeper: everyone's heard the jive-ass hits. BTO was capable of a lot more than that, but you've gotta be willing to go deeper and hear it.

 

It's kind of like judging Extreme or Nuno Bettencourt based solely off of "More than Words". What many people don't realize is Nuno was and is a hot-{censored} lead guitarist.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Why don't you go watch some of the old videos and judge for yourself? Randy is and was a HELL of a good guitarist. Here's that "Lookin' out for #1" you talked about. Randy is playing the licks. There's also some instrumental stuff floating around, real jazzy intricate stuff that they did; I wish I knew what it was called cuz I guarantee you you'd change your opinion if you heard it.

 

You're so missing the point. You seem to be thinking I'm saying Bachman is a lousy guitarist. I've said nothing of the sort. It has nothing to do with it. We're talking about playing songs in cover bands and having stage presence. It has nothing to do with Bachman's playing skills. It DOES have to do with his stage presence which is unmemorable at best.

 

Which is why when "Purple Haze" or "Layla" or "Pride and Joy" come on the radio, most people get some picture in their mind of the guitarist playing the riff. But when "Takin' Care of Business" comes on the radio, the same thing doesn't happen.

[wades_keys]

 

You're so missing the point. You seem to be thinking I'm saying Bachman is a lousy guitarist. I've said nothing of the sort. It has nothing to do with it. We're talking about playing songs in cover bands and having stage presence. It has nothing to do with Bachman's playing skills. It DOES have to do with his stage presence which is unmemorable at best. Which is why when "Purple Haze" or "Layla" or "Pride and Joy" come on the radio, most people get some picture in their mind of the guitarist playing the riff. But when "Takin' Care of Business" comes on the radio, the same thing doesn't happen.

 

No, I get that. Bachmann was a rocker writing pop songs. But he played both sides of the fence is what I'm saying: the musicians and the average/casual listener. He sold millions and millions of records too.

 

What I'm trying to tell you is USE YOUR EARS and go beyond the marketing. You'll realize that Bachmann was and is a really exceptional guitarist - MUCH better than the average listener would realize.

 

Better and more versatile than Jimmy Page, more innovative than Robin Trower, etc. Just look at the total command he has on the guitar - the total ease that he plays with. He's like Eddie in that regard, or maybe SRV.

[Vito Corleone]

 

What I'm also saying is you need to go deeper: everyone's heard the jive-ass hits. BTO was capable of a lot more than that, but you've gotta be willing to go deeper and hear it.

 

It has nothing to do with that. Look, I was big BTO fan as a kid. I played "BTO II" and "Not Fragile" to death and stuck with them all the way through "Freeways". I probably know more deep BTO catalog than you do. Nobody goes "deeper" with that band. Good luck playing anything more than one of their 4 hits at your next gig and keeping the audience interested. No matter HOW great the guitar playing is.

[Vito Corleone]

 

What I'm trying to tell you is USE YOUR EARS and go beyond the marketing. You'll realize that Bachmann was and is a really exceptional guitarist - MUCH better than the average listener would realize.

 

 

OK.

[wades_keys]

 

It has nothing to do with that. Look, I was big BTO fan as a kid. I played "BTO II" and "Not Fragile" to death and stuck with them all the way through "Freeways". I probably know more deep BTO catalog than you do. Nobody goes "deeper" with that band. Good luck playing anything more than one of their 4 hits at your next gig and keeping the audience interested. No matter HOW great the guitar playing is.

 

Different discussion entirely. But even to that I would say: A lot of that failure would be because Randy is really a better guitarist than you think. Not too many cover band guitarists can do his style justice.

 

They think they can, but they can't. Much easier to do Jimmy Page justice than Randy.

 

You had the same thing with Clapton. The "Slowhand" and, "oh, that's actually pretty easy". Yeah, many try, few succeed. Clapton just had a smoothness, a confidence, and a tone and touch that go way deeper than what a lot of people think is his style.

 

So with that we've come full circle with what I was saying about "watered down". You play watered down Clapton, or even Bachman for that matter, and "the audience" won't "know the difference". But they won't be entertained, either, because you don't have "it". Just like groove: impossible to define but noticeable BY ITS ABSENCE.

[kmart]

 

LMAO Whatever you say buddy. I guess David Grissom and Duke Robillard both living here in the 90's ain't enough for you. Hey, it's whatever. I've spent my whole life here. I gig here. I learned how to play music from cats that live here. I know the scene better than you ever could. Yeah, we even have a blues club called Stevie Ray's that books a lot of nationals. You ought to stop by sometime, hang out there and at Guitar Emporium and talk guitar. There's a lot of mighty fine pickers here, including the best that Bluegrass has to offer. I'm sure they could show you a few things you've never seen. It's too bad we lost the Bluegrass fest to Indy, but that's because the Belvedere has structural flaws and the turnout was too big to host anywhere else. I've seen Bill Monroe twice, I've hung out backstage with "New Grass Revival", and I've watched THOUSANDS of people enjoy that music. Let's see YOUR TOWN host the Bluegrass fest: let's see what kind of turnout you get.

 

 

Or to put it simply: you can't back up what you said.

 

Look, you can keep coming back with every nickel and dime guitar slinger your town (which is arguably not part of the SOUTH to begin with) has to offer if that makes you feel happy.

 

But bottom line is that doesn't prove a single thing. And it certainly doesn't come close to showing how Louisville OR the entire South 'understand and appreciate guitar much more' than any other place in the world, which is what you said in the first place. And that claim is still just as ignorant and idiotic as it was the moment you typed it.

 

 

Based on your responses, it's clear you are having trouble actually understanding what the words you typed mean, so there's no reason for me to continue discussing it with you, but I do find it hilarious that you've now also claimed that the city where I live wouldn't be able to sustain/maintain a bluegrass fest and it seems also implied that my city isn't as understanding or appreciative of guitar.

 

Which shows that you know even less about Chicago's contributions to music, both current & historically speaking, than you do about the English language.

[wades_keys]

Off the meds again?

 

I never said "much more than any place in the world".

 

But whatever, dude.

 

Yeah, Chicago is one of the meccas of the Blues. Any idiot knows that; the Delta guys all went up there and helped create the jump blues.

 

But you ain't gonna be hosting any Bluegrass anytime soon. Or maybe you will, as a curiosity for you northerners that don't know {censored} about that kind of music.

 

If Duke Robillard is a "nickel and dime guitarslinger", then so is your precious Buddy Guy.

[theficklefinger]

 

Or to put it simply: you can't back up what you said. Look, you can keep coming back with every nickel and dime guitar slinger your town (which is arguably not part of the SOUTH to begin with) has to offer if that makes you feel happy. But bottom line is that doesn't prove a single thing. And it certainly doesn't come close to showing how Louisville OR the entire South 'understand and appreciate guitar much more' than any other place in the world, which is what you said in the first place. And that claim is still just as ignorant and idiotic as it was the moment you typed it. Based on your responses, it's clear you are having trouble actually understanding what the words you typed mean, so there's no reason for me to continue discussing it with you, but I do find it hilarious that you've now also claimed that the city where I live wouldn't be able to sustain/maintain a bluegrass fest and it seems also implied that my city isn't as understanding or appreciative of guitar. Which shows that you know even less about Chicago's contributions to music, both current & historically speaking, than you do about the English language.

 

 

+1

 

Bottom line, you arguing with a keys player (guido) and a bass player (wades) about guitar virtuosos. You might as well be arguing with them about botany or rocket science. Because they own mouths, they feel that their opinions are valid.

[wades_keys]

+1 Bottom line, you arguing with a keys player (guido) and a bass player (wades) about guitar virtuosos. You might as well be arguing with them about botany or rocket science. Because they own mouths, they feel that their opinions are valid.

 

I still smoke your ass on guitar, Tim. Like Marley smokes a joint.

 

And I'm not even "good enough" to be in a band: at least not on lead.

 

So where does that leave you, huh?

[Vito Corleone]

 

+1 Bottom line, you arguing with a keys player (guido) and a bass player (wades) about guitar virtuosos. You might as well be arguing with them about botany or rocket science. Because they own mouths, they feel that their opinions are valid.

 

 

Keys--guitar---bass: they are all musicians and therefore all have valid and experienced opinions on music.

 

Of course, you'd have to be a MUSICIAN to understand that....

 

Fly away Timmy....

[theficklefinger]

I don't play keys, nor do I perform brain surgery, nor do I fly the space shuttle, ergo, I don't think I am qualified to pass judgment on those that do. I don't think that is an unfair statement.

 

Can a keys player be up to speed on guitar playing enough to say 'he botched it', sure. Can he have an opinion on whether he likes the solo or not, sure. But if I were to ask you or Wades the difference in difficulty between playing the solo to Freebird or Eruption, you would probably have little say related to the complexities of solos, or how to accomplish them, ergo, your opinions are baseless with regard to a 'good guitar player' vs 'a great one'. Your stuck in a place where you either like what they are doing, or not, like every other listener of music.

[wades_keys]

No, I never said anything of the sort. I just said PEOPLE HERE HAVE AN APPRECIATION FOR THE GUITAR.

 

THAT'S IT.

 

GOT IT?

 

The music scene here actually sucks pretty badly. It's you that lacks perspective, all wanting to pile on with your Chicago hipster bull{censored}. Look man, my girl is from Chitown. I visit there multiple tiimes a {censored}ing year. You don't have to preach ChiTown to me - I know all about it.

 

okay?

[Vito Corleone]

 

I don't play keys, nor do I perform brain surgery, nor do I fly the space shuttle, ergo, I don't think I am qualified to pass judgment on those that do. I don't think that is an unfair statement. Can a keys player be up to speed on guitar playing enough to say 'he botched it', sure. Can he have an opinion on whether he likes the solo or not, sure. But if I were to ask you or Wades the difference in difficulty between playing the solo to Freebird or Eruption, you would probably have little say related to the complexities of solos, or how to accomplish them, ergo, your opinions are baseless with regard to a 'good guitar player' vs 'a great one'. Your stuck in a place where you either like what they are doing, or not, like every other listener of music.

 

 

That opinion is so ignorant of what music and muscianship even IS that I don't even know where to begin.

 

Can you even read music, Tim?

[wades_keys]

 

I don't play keys, nor do I perform brain surgery, nor do I fly the space shuttle, ergo, I don't think I am qualified to pass judgment on those that do. I don't think that is an unfair statement. Can a keys player be up to speed on guitar playing enough to say 'he botched it', sure. Can he have an opinion on whether he likes the solo or not, sure. But if I were to ask you or Wades the difference in difficulty between playing the solo to Freebird or Eruption, you would probably have little say related to the complexities of solos, or how to accomplish them, ergo, your opinions are baseless with regard to a 'good guitar player' vs 'a great one'. Your stuck in a place where you either like what they are doing, or not, like every other listener of music.

 

Uh, David plays guitar too.

 

Better than you do.

 

I've actually played guitar for 30 years, Tim. So ask away. I've never tried to be much of a lead guitarist, but I know the notes on the neck, and I know theory.

 

So - what do want to know about those solos? You want a theory analysis? I can give you one in real time if you'd like, even though I don't have the dexterity to do Van Halen.

 

It's you that is showing your ignorance by focusing on "complexity", while ignoring other aspects of music. You're impressed by speed and shiny objects. Well dude, guess what: I got over that 25 years ago.

 

Van Halen's playing is still rooted in the blues, but he didn't stick to the 5 note blues scale. He'd incorporate other notes from the major scale into his playing. That's a very West Coast thing, and the best example of that is Randy Rhoads.

 

You know any Randy riffs, Tim?

 

Want me to show you how to play the solo for "Revelation, Mother Earth" and explain how he uses the harmonic minor scale there?

 

Ready to go to school?