How do you leave a band gracefully?

[Vito Corleone]

 

I'm miserable because of musicians trying to change what I do.

 

 

But why would they do that? Just because they're mean? Or assholes? Or stupid? Or egomaniacs?

 

Could it be they just want what's best for the band and see something you're not quite grasping?

[tim_7string]

 

But why would they do that? Just because they're mean? Or assholes? Or stupid? Or egomaniacs? Could it be they just want what's best for the band and see something you're not quite grasping?

 

 

They see an agreeable person. I don't act like what they envision a "lead singer/frontman" should be. They don't see a loudmouth or party animal or otherwise extroverted person. They see a serious musician that wants to get things right. That's usually what people see in a guitarist only. But while I'm not comparing my talent to these people I'm about to mention (far from it, just the role they play), this was certainly true of people like Eric Clapton, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Jimi Hendrix, even Hetfield. That temperment of being serious about their music, but still being the lead singer. The lead singer from Metallica is actually a pretty quiet guy when he's not onstage.

 

It's my personality. I'm guessing that they only can see a frontperson as being someone like a David Lee Roth, a Steven Tyler, a Jani Lane, or the lead singer from Shinedown. There are a lot more frontpeople than that. I could list a whole bunch of them, but what's the point, really?

[wades_keys]

So you're the "Anti Lead Singer"

 

But really, if you're playing music that requires a frontman, then probably you all should get a frontman. Just sayin': hell, SRV or Clapton couldn't entertain fans of bombastic rock - they didn't even try; they did their own thing with blues based rock.

 

Or look at it this way: if you want to avoid this argument in the future, start playing music that doesn't require or need a frontman. Like blues or old rock. That's kind of what we do.

 

No way our guy could ever be a "frontman", and that's a big reason why we avoid bombastic stuff in our sets.

 

I was in a more "heavy" classic rock outfit for a little bit where the singer played guitar and sang, and really didn't have any presence at all, and it just kind of never really clicked or felt right.

[Hegmatronicon]

 

They see an agreeable person. I don't act like what they envision a "lead singer/frontman" should be. They don't see a loudmouth or party animal or otherwise extroverted person. They see a serious musician that wants to get things right. That's usually what people see in a guitarist only. But while I'm not comparing my talent to these people I'm about to mention (far from it, just the role they play), this was certainly true of people like Eric Clapton, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Jimi Hendrix, even Hetfield. That temperment of being serious about their music, but still being the lead singer. The lead singer from Metallica is actually a pretty quiet guy when he's not onstage. It's my personality. I'm guessing that they only can see a frontperson as being someone like a David Lee Roth, a Steven Tyler, a Jani Lane, or the lead singer from Shinedown. There are a lot more frontpeople than that. I could list a whole bunch of them, but what's the point, really?

 

 

I'm guessing that you are guessing wrong.

 

I mean.....why would ppl want to replace you - just because (they think) you would probably let them (coz you are quiet etc)?? That makes NO freaking sense.

If people keep wanting to replace you on vocals - there's a reason....and i'd wager even money it has to do with them identifying a "weakness" that can be corrected by replacing you. Whether it be image, stage presence or vocal ability.

Sorry.

[tim_7string]

So you're the "Anti Lead Singer" But really, if you're playing music that requires a frontman, then probably you all should get a frontman. Just sayin': hell, SRV or Clapton couldn't entertain fans of bombastic rock - they didn't even try; they did their own thing with blues based rock. Or look at it this way: if you want to avoid this argument in the future, start playing music that doesn't require or need a frontman. Like blues or old rock. That's kind of what we do. No way our guy could ever be a "frontman", and that's a big reason why we avoid bombastic stuff in our sets. I was in a more "heavy" classic rock outfit for a little bit where the singer played guitar and sang, and really didn't have any presence at all, and it just kind of never really clicked or felt right.

 

I'll give you a list of artists we cover that I sang for the band:

 

Roy Orbison (Roy Orbison; singer, Oh Pretty Woman) - Vocalist/Guitarist

The Beatles (John Lennon, singer; Twist And Shout) - Vocalist/Rhythm Guitarist

The Cars (Ric Ocasek and Benjamin Orr, singers, three songs from their debut album) - Vocalist/Rhythm Guitarist and Vocalist/Bass Guitarist

Greg Kihn Band (Greg Kihn, singer; The Breakup Song) - Vocalist/Rhythm Guitarist

Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers (V/RG)

Rick Springfield (V/LG)

Steve Miller Band (V/LG)

Johnny Rivers (V/RG or LG)

Tommy Tutone (V/RG)

Jace Everett (V/RG)

Bachman-Turner Overdrive (V/LG)

Chuck Berry (V/LG)

Eric Clapton (V/LG)

Cream (V/LG and V/BG)

John Lennon (V/Piano)

Bryan Adams (V/RG)

 

Every single one of these artists plays guitar or bass guitar while they sing. And that made up 80-90% of the songs I sang.

 

These songs don't require a frontman. We're not doing Van Halen, Rolling Stones, Aerosmith, etc. here.

[Vito Corleone]

 

They see an agreeable person. I don't act like what they envision a "lead singer/frontman" should be. They don't see a loudmouth or party animal or otherwise extroverted person. They see a serious musician that wants to get things right. That's usually what people see in a guitarist only. But while I'm not comparing my talent to these people I'm about to mention (far from it, just the role they play), this was certainly true of people like Eric Clapton, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Jimi Hendrix, even Hetfield. That temperment of being serious about their music, but still being the lead singer. The lead singer from Metallica is actually a pretty quiet guy when he's not onstage. It's my personality. I'm guessing that they only can see a frontperson as being someone like a David Lee Roth, a Steven Tyler, a Jani Lane, or the lead singer from Shinedown. There are a lot more frontpeople than that. I could list a whole bunch of them, but what's the point, really?

 

 

"Front man" is a big role to fill. And doing it while playing guitar is even bigger. I really haven't seen that many guys who can pull it off that successfully. And look at how many guys here, who play in very good bands, have decided their bands would be better if they, or others in their bands, stepped back and let a real SINGER take over the singing duties rather then they, or someone else in their band, struggle to be the singer/player/frontman.

 

This might be a good time for you to step back, take a serious assessment and decide if you REALLY believe you are THAT good.

[tim_7string]

 

I'm guessing that you are guessing wrong. I mean.....why would ppl want to replace you - just because (they think) you would probably let them (coz you are quiet etc)?? That makes NO freaking sense. If people keep wanting to replace you on vocals - there's a reason....and i'd wager even money it has to do with them identifying a "weakness" that can be corrected by replacing you. Whether it be image, stage presence or vocal ability. Sorry.

 

 

Sorry about what? It's just your opinion. Doesn't mean it's right. You're welcome to muse on the subject. That's what a forum is all about.

 

Again, as long as the audience loves it, that's all I ultimately give a {censored} about. If my band ends up being a revolving door (like most bands are), big deal. I'm prepared for that anyway.

[wades_keys]

There ya go.

[tim_7string]

"Front man" is a big role to fill. And doing it while playing guitar is even bigger.

 

I agree with you, which is why my next band will NOT be a trio. It was way too stressful to be chained to my effects pedals while trying to front the band. I will be involving a second guitarist instead (hopefully my cousin, who is a great guitarist and great on harmony vocals as well). This will free me up to interact more. Why everyone is trying to say "Just play guitar, Tim" is beyond me. I need help with the guitar, not the lead vocals.

 

I really haven't seen that many guys who can pull it off that successfully. And look at how many guys here, who play in very good bands, have decided their bands would be better if they, or others in their bands, stepped back and let a real SINGER take over the singing duties rather then they, or someone else in their band, struggle to be the singer/player/frontman.

 

Hey, that's great. FOR THEM. They decided that they want to make more money, concentrate more on being good at their one instrument (having to sing being an annoying distraction from that goal), etc. Fan-tas-tic.

 

This might be a good time for you to step back, take a serious assessment and decide if you REALLY believe you are THAT good.

 

And I never said I was "that good." I'm good enough for the gigs I play. Would I work in your band as a frontperson? Absolutely, positively not. People that are expecting a party "clap your hands people!" kind of vibe with a lot of energy and jumping around...yeah, that requires a person that just sings, because they can go out into the crowd. I have a different vibe, more similar to the artists I listed that I cover. Again, the singer with wireless mic isn't the only option around.

 

You do what you want, I'll do what I want. We'll both be happy. Cool?

[Vito Corleone]

I just watched the video clip you have up of you guys playing "Rebel Yell" live. Now I understand it's just a random live clip from months ago, but even taking all that into consideration, I'll tell you what I see:

 

I hear the drummer drop the beat a couple of times, but that {censored} happens. And I guess maybe the bass player misses a note here or there, but that happens too. What sticks out for me is I see a guy up front struggling to sing well AND play guitar well at the same time, and not with a WHOLE lotta stage presence. If someone else were singing, you'd have much more time to concentrate on kicking ass with your guitar.

 

Sorry to sound harsh, but I think I see what your bandmates were seeing more than what you want them to see.

[Vito Corleone]

 

And I never said I was "that good." I'm good enough for the gigs I play. Would I work in your band as a frontperson? Absolutely, positively not. People that are expecting a party "clap your hands people!" kind of vibe with a lot of energy and jumping around...yeah, that requires a person that just sings, because they can go out into the crowd. I have a different vibe, more similar to the artists I listed that I cover. Again, the singer with wireless mic isn't the only option around.

 

 

I know. I'm not thinking in terms of MY type of band. But being the guitarist/singer/frontman requires a whole different kind of stage presence. It's not 1973 anymore. Being Randy Bachman doesn't really cut it much today.

[wades_keys]

 

I know. I'm not thinking in terms of MY type of band. But being the guitarist/singer/frontman requires a whole different kind of stage presence. It's not 1973 anymore. Being Randy Bachman doesn't really cut it much today.

 

I agree with this. I saw it fail in my last classic rock band. The guy could have used a "better voice" - that's for sure.

 

But that wasn't really the issue. It was the lack of presence that "set us apart", and not in a good way. There's just too many bands out there playing that "classic rock" style that DO HAVE presence from the frontman. Hell, there's one band around here where that's just about ALL they have: but they still gig.

 

And you know, we tried to bring this up - open up the option of getting a real frontman in that band. But D. wasn't hearing it - even though he's got some real nice guitar skills. He just wasn't having any of that. Kinda reminds me of what's going down here.

 

I know for a fact that at least one of his bandmates to this day would still prefer a "dedicated" singer, but they're just rolling with what they have anyway.

[tim_7string]

 

I just watched the video clip you have up of you guys playing "Rebel Yell" live. Now I understand it's just a random live clip from months ago, but even taking all that into consideration, I'll tell you what I see: I hear the drummer drop the beat a couple of times, but that {censored} happens. And I guess maybe the bass player misses a note here or there, but that happens too. What sticks out for me is I see a guy up front struggling to sing well AND play guitar well at the same time, and not with a WHOLE lotta stage presence. If someone else were singing, you'd have much more time to concentrate on kicking ass with your guitar. Sorry to sound harsh, but I think I see what your bandmates were seeing more than what you want them to see.

 

 

Okay. One last time. I need a guitarist. Not a vocalist. With a guitarist, I can BE the vocalist you think I so desperately need. I can't effectively front the band if I'm worrying about what the bass player is doing and what *I* am doing on guitar. With that other guitarist, I will be able to entertain more.

 

Make sense?

 

And I really should post you some recordings of the bass player (audio). You'd hear every single messup. Maybe 20 seconds of every song we played. I have a feeling you wouldn't be able to last five minutes.

 

You're right about one thing though. If that song is the representation of the band and that is the impression YOU get (and of course I'm completely wrong in this case about what is really going on onstage), perhaps I should remove it from the site. It's probably doing more harm than good.

[wades_keys]

But if you're not in the band anymore, and that band will continue on with the name, then what is the problem?

 

Hell, Throttle still has video AND audio on their site with me in it, and I haven't been in that band for over 2 years now.

 

It's kind of "fun" to reminisce and go back and listen to that stuff, and I'm still friends with those guys. Hell, let them decide how they want to proceed: if nothing else, it'll give you something to do when you have time on your hands - go check em out and see how they're doing.

[tim_7string]

 

I know. I'm not thinking in terms of MY type of band. But being the guitarist/singer/frontman requires a whole different kind of stage presence. It's not 1973 anymore. Being Randy Bachman doesn't really cut it much today.

 

 

If that's a comment in regards to my weight, then that makes perfect sense where your thinking is at in regards in having a "frontman." By frontman you mean "someone more attractive," as in slim. Right? I agree that I am overweight. Does that mean I should be hidden from view because it's so horrible for a musician to be fat?

 

How superficial of you.

[Vito Corleone]

 

I'll give you a list of artists we cover that I sang for the band: Roy Orbison (Roy Orbison; singer, Oh Pretty Woman) - Vocalist/Guitarist The Beatles (John Lennon, singer; Twist And Shout) - Vocalist/Rhythm Guitarist The Cars (Ric Ocasek and Benjamin Orr, singers, three songs from their debut album) - Vocalist/Rhythm Guitarist and Vocalist/Bass Guitarist Greg Kihn Band (Greg Kihn, singer; The Breakup Song) - Vocalist/Rhythm Guitarist Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers (V/RG) Rick Springfield (V/LG) Steve Miller Band (V/LG) Johnny Rivers (V/RG or LG) Tommy Tutone (V/RG) Jace Everett (V/RG) Bachman-Turner Overdrive (V/LG) Chuck Berry (V/LG) Eric Clapton (V/LG) Cream (V/LG and V/BG) John Lennon (V/Piano) Bryan Adams (V/RG) Every single one of these artists plays guitar or bass guitar while they sing. And that made up 80-90% of the songs I sang. These songs don't require a frontman. We're not doing Van Halen, Rolling Stones, Aerosmith, etc. here.

 

 

It isn't about the SONGS 'requiring' a front man. People aren't watching your band to see if you're every bit as showy as Steve Miller or not during a Steve Miller song. It's not a one-on-one comparison in that way. It doesn't work like that. Nobody knows or cares what Steve Miller looks like when they are at one of your shows. But they DO know and care what YOU look like because THAT'S where they are.

 

It's about what YOU do with the song. Not about how it compares to what BTO looked like doing it a million years ago.

[tim_7string]

It's about what YOU do with the song. Not about how it compares to what BTO looked like doing it a million years ago.

 

Yep, I agree with you. And what I do with the song works just fine for the people I play for.

[Vito Corleone]

 

But if you're not in the band anymore, and that band will continue on with the name, then what is the problem?

 

 

Well, he has it on his PERSONAL site. Not on the band site. So it IS more a representation of HIM than of the band in that respect.

[Vito Corleone]

Yep, I agree with you. And what I do with the song works just fine for the people I play for.

 

Except you just said it didn't and that you needed a guitar player.

 

Are you trying to convince ME or YOURSELF at this point?

 

But if you really believe you're a good enough singer and front man to sell a band and all you need is a guitar player so you can be freed up, then I'll send you off from here with my blessings.

[tim_7string]

Except you just said it didn't and that you needed a guitar player. Are you trying to convince ME or YOURSELF at this point?

 

I said it works just fine. As in "the song" as a generic term, not specifically the one you mentioned. I guess I should have added "with me singing and playing...and it will sound even better with another guitarist, then I can be freed up on vocals."

 

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You're certainly not going to convince me of what you are trying to tell me to do. Right now, it's just a pissing match, a draw, Mexican standoff. That's all this is.

[Vito Corleone]

 

If that's a comment in regards to my weight, then that makes perfect sense where your thinking is at in regards in having a "frontman." By frontman you mean "someone more attractive," as in slim. Right? I agree that I am overweight. Does that mean I should be hidden from view because it's so horrible for a musician to be fat? How superficial of you.

 

 

No it has nothing to do with weight. I think a lot of fat guys (and girls) are good front men. It has to do with stage presence, not size of the performer. Randy Bachman sucked as a front man because he was/is boring to watch. Not because he was/is fat.

[wades_keys]

 

No it has nothing to do with weight. I think a lot of fat guys (and girls) are good front men. It has to do with stage presence, not size of the performer. Randy Bachman sucked as a front man because he was/is boring to watch. Not because he was/is fat.

 

YEah, but Randy made up for it by being a kickass guitarist. Most people back then knew him primarily as a guitarist anyway.

[tim_7string]

 

No it has nothing to do with weight. I think a lot of fat guys (and girls) are good front men. It has to do with stage presence, not size of the performer. Randy Bachman sucked as a front man because he was/is boring to watch. Not because he was/is fat.

 

 

Okay, I getcha. Basically, you have an idea of a frontperson. You're not seeing that kind of person represented in that video. I understand that. Great. That IS something I need to work on. I know that. What I'm trying to explain is how I can do this. I've done it before.

 

I worked with my cousin on guitar/vocals years ago in a band called Blown Fuse. We sometimes played as a trio with me on as the only guitarist and sometimes with him as a quartet. Whenever he was able to make the gig, which was not all the time, since he lived far away from where I lived at the time, we sounded MUCH better with him playing lead guitar and singing harmony (and taking a turn on lead on a few songs). MUCH better. It freed me up to get more into the music, I didn't feel like I had to hold everything together, I could even stop playing guitar for a few seconds. We sounded more professional. We had the extra harmony vocals, two guys trading off on lead vocals and guitar solos, and it was easier for both of us because we weren't the only guitarist while trying to sing besides. That is what has stressed me out so much with the trio, all the responsibility on my shoulders.

 

Everyone seems to think the only way to relieve it is to get some guy or girl that just sings. I need help with the music, not the vocals. That's what caused the stress, trying to cover so much sonic territory. I don't WANT to cover all that sonic territory. I much prefer the sound of four instruments (guitar, guitar, bass guitar, drums or guitar, keyboards, bass guitar, drums) than a trio. The trio makes more money, but it's a lot more stressful for me. I'm a four-piece band guy trying to make it work in a three-piece. And I realize that it's just too difficult.

[theficklefinger]

I think there are allot of bored musicians with no gigs, banging on 7 string, just wanting to tear him down, it they had gigs, they wouldn't have 3000 posts.

 

If this thread is any indication of pro players in the field, you need do little more then pack up your crap, and give the middle finger as you walk out of band practice...they don't deserve better. That's how you leave a band of idiots that won't get it together.

[wades_keys]

What's a drag is your drummer was pretty good. He doesn't hit too hard, and seems to have it together pretty well.

 

Bass player - yeah, I could see where he was getting lost at times and whatnot, but he wasn't that up in the mix - seems like he was more "show than go", but he did have pretty good stage presence.

 

Might want to keep working with the drummer.

 

I guess I'm just wondering why you'd leave the whole deal behind if the real issue musically with your guys was the bassist?

 

Fire him, get another bassist, get your cousin in there on guitar, and you're good to go. Why start over - seems like more trouble than it's worth.