Members New Trail Posted September 19, 2011 Members Share Posted September 19, 2011 I want our originals band to be perfection, like Steely Dan or The Eagles perfection, where every note, every drum lick and beat, every bass run, every vocal line, every guitar harmony, every vocal harmony, etc., etc., is so perfectly crafted and executed that you can't imagine the song without it. Is that too much to ask? BTW I also play in a blues band that mostly jams all night, so I've got THAT musical direction covered, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FitchFY Posted September 19, 2011 Members Share Posted September 19, 2011 I mean, yes, but no. If the people in your band share your passion and vision, then it's perfectly reasonable, and you're all working for it. But that's a deep conversation to have before you start getting all Axl Rose on them. My last band seeked sonic perfection when we played, and many people for several years told us we were the tightest band they'd seen out of the local area. So it can be done! I mean, Steely Dan did it, The Eagles did it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wardjames Posted September 19, 2011 Members Share Posted September 19, 2011 That's not too much to ask, as long as you let everyone use music stands! Seriously, I think the most you can ask is that everyone strive towards perfection, to the best of their time commitment and ability. Whether or not you'll ever get there is another story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators daddymack Posted September 19, 2011 Moderators Share Posted September 19, 2011 Well, obviously, perfection is an unrealistic goal...I dealt with that approach for number of years in one band (I was a co-founder), and it wound up costing us people, lost time, etc., and eventually, I left because there was no room to do anything spontaneous/creative, I was feeling stifled...without flexibility, you may as well go in the studio, record the material and send the CD player out on gigs Basically, the caliber of players has to be the first consideration; you need to find what works for the people in the band. Demanding an unrealistic performance level simply will make 99% of them unhappy and they will leave. Work to the limits; exceeding them may be possible in time, but pushing everybody to excel is a full time job. The other side of the coin is material, because without top notch songwriting, none of the other stuff adds up to anything. Also consider the examples you used..look at the personnel issues with the Eagles going back to Bernie Leadon leaving after 2 albums; look at Steely Dan which is not an actual band but a two singer/songwriters who hire studio level players to get their music out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted September 19, 2011 Members Share Posted September 19, 2011 I have a subjectively different idea of what "perfection" is than you do, but I think our band does most of what we set out to do in terms of being tight, together and very energetic. You just have to have the right combination of people and everybody has to be dedicated enough... you can't have any weak links. It can be hard to find that combination of people who are really good musicians and also care more about making the music they want to make than snagging the highest paying gigs. But there are a few like that around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chicken Monkey Posted September 19, 2011 Members Share Posted September 19, 2011 Those bands were all doing it full-time. You're unlikely to get there practicing two hours a week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TIMKEYS Posted September 19, 2011 Members Share Posted September 19, 2011 Those bands were all doing it full-time. You're unlikely to get there practicing two hours a week. The hardest nut to crack is the harmony vocals. If you have those solid, its a big step in becomming a great band. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SpaceNorman Posted September 19, 2011 Members Share Posted September 19, 2011 I want our originals band to be perfection, like Steely Dan or The Eagles perfection, where every note, every drum lick and beat, every bass run, every vocal line, every guitar harmony, every vocal harmony, etc., etc., is so perfectly crafted and executed that you can't imagine the song without it. Is that too much to ask? Nothing wrong with shooting for the moon ... BUT, I think you'll make yourself crazy in the process. The bands you mentioned didn't play their own material - note for note, lick for lick, beat for beat the same way from night to night. Sure - they had a concise framework (in terms of song structure, signature phrases, basic feel, etc.) - but note for note?, lick for lick? - not so much. Like I said - nothing wrong with shooting for the moon - however, it's been my experience that whenever I've run into a bandmate that got all tense about wanting "perfection" they pretty much ruined whatever synergy the band might have had developing - and ultimately sucked every little bit of fun out of the project. Any time I've worked with a "perfectionist" - it didn't take long before their "insistence" ultimately destroyed the band. I'm not advocating for sloppy ... but an expectation of "note for ote, lick for lick, beat for beat" is a standard that even the real pros don't hold themselves to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Invader.CC Posted September 20, 2011 Members Share Posted September 20, 2011 I do not like doing note for note covers and i think most musicians will agree that it takes away from your own style and individuality..If you are talking about being tight and on time there is no reason not to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kmart Posted September 20, 2011 Members Share Posted September 20, 2011 I want our originals band to be perfection, like Steely Dan or The Eagles perfection, where every note, every drum lick and beat, every bass run, every vocal line, every guitar harmony, every vocal harmony, etc., etc., is so perfectly crafted and executed that you can't imagine the song without it. Is that too much to ask? Do you ever plan to play out with this band? If so, I suggest you re-assess your goals somewhat, otherwise, you'll never leave the rehearsal room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members trevcda Posted September 20, 2011 Members Share Posted September 20, 2011 I say go for it. But don't expect it to happen with whomever you happen to be playing with at the moment. There are people who want do exactly what you are suggesting, but you're going to have to go find them. You can teach it, if you have the time and patience, but if someone's heart isn't in it, it isn't much fun for anyone involved. Start our with the right people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted September 20, 2011 Members Share Posted September 20, 2011 The bands you mentioned didn't play their own material - note for note, lick for lick, beat for beat the same way from night to night. Sure - they had a concise framework (in terms of song structure, signature phrases, basic feel, etc.) - but note for note?, lick for lick? - not so much. Actually, the Eagles pretty much did, and do. The exception being their acoustic versions of their songs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TIMKEYS Posted September 20, 2011 Members Share Posted September 20, 2011 Actually, the Eagles pretty much did, and do. The exception being their acoustic versions of their songs. i saw the eagles twice back in the day. The thing that amazed me was they sounded just like the LPs. Amazing band live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TIMKEYS Posted September 20, 2011 Members Share Posted September 20, 2011 Do you ever plan to play out with this band?If so, I suggest you re-assess your goals somewhat, otherwise, you'll never leave the rehearsal room. Like i said in an earlier post ,, if they have the vocal chops , there should be a reason why they cant perform the songs as written. Generally people dont write the musical parts above their ability to play. If they can ace the vocals and have the timeing its reasonable to expect to perform clean passes through the stuff live. Will they write at the eagles level.. prolly not. Its an original band ,, typically they perform the latest CD and a few off the one before that. its not like they are going to be playing 40 songs at a show, unless they do quite a few covers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members itorres008 Posted September 20, 2011 Members Share Posted September 20, 2011 The hardest nut to crack is the harmony vocals. If you have those solid, its a big step in becomming a great band. This, I feel is true. It makes a big difference and can even compensate for band weaknesses in other areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted September 20, 2011 Members Share Posted September 20, 2011 I want our originals band to be perfection, like Steely Dan or The Eagles perfection, where every note, every drum lick and beat, every bass run, every vocal line, every guitar harmony, every vocal harmony, etc., etc., is so perfectly crafted and executed that you can't imagine the song without it. Is that too much to ask? Perfection is a nice but unachievable goal. I like those bands too, but I wouldn't call them perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ski219 Posted September 20, 2011 Members Share Posted September 20, 2011 It may be achievable but not for me... I play in an original band and we have reached a point where we are tight enough to get a little loose and that's when I love playing live the most. Interacting with other musicians , listening and adding to the dialogue. Seeing a band replicate studio versions of their songs can be awesome but to me it takes something off the edge of a live show. And I am speaking here both as audience and performer. BTW I saw the Cars back in the day and they completely nailed the entire show exactly the sounds and notes on record. Re Steeley Dan, I recently learned Kid Charlemagne on Guitar and watched a bunch of performances of it on youtube. The live versions are all over the place and none exactly match the recording. In one case they had a guitarist that looked like, but wasn't, Steve Vai and he completely shredded, thrashed and ruined Larry Carton's solo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted September 20, 2011 Moderators Share Posted September 20, 2011 Our Original Band: How I would like it to be.......perfect! Too much to ask? I might not be too much to ask, but it might not serve you as well as having realistic, yet stringent expectations. Then being willing to accept varying amounts of "perfection" to allow you to get out and play live. There's that point where refining in rehearsal stops working and you need to get it out to get it better. It's knowing when that point is that's important. Don't polish it over and over with diminishing returns. Get it out there when the time is right to really see great improvement. Gig, rehearse/refine, gig, rehearse/refine Tape your gigs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wardjames Posted September 20, 2011 Members Share Posted September 20, 2011 The hardest nut to crack is the harmony vocals. If you have those solid, its a big step in becomming a great band. This +100. You can cover up a lot of "imperfection" with great harmony vocals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SLScott86 Posted September 20, 2011 Members Share Posted September 20, 2011 Depends on your bandmates. Perfection is pretty lofty and not totally realistic. The thing is that sometimes if you are too set on perfection you can end up changing things that don't need changing. You can drive yourself crazy chasing something that might or might not even exist. Aim to make music you'll love to listen to for years. Sometimes warts aren't a bad thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kramerguy Posted September 20, 2011 Members Share Posted September 20, 2011 I disagree with most of you. I find that striving for perfection is a natural progression and personally I've found that most people I've worked with who wanted to just fumble through it, or "play it their way" were just making excuses because they were too lazy to learn something note-for-note, or felt they were incapable. I understand people have limitations, but I wouldn't be nearly as good as I've become if I didn't put my nose to the grindstone and force myself to learn stuff that I *thought* was out of my league. Again, I'm not intentionally flaming anyone- we've had the jam band vs note-for-note discussions here many times... but I think most people just aren't willing to work hard enough to try and perfect the craft, especially when most of us can get away with playing sloppy or good enough to get through gigs without incident. Gotta keep in mind though.. getting through sloppy rock covers is one thing, but like the OP stated.. play some steely dan or eagles all sloppy or "your way", especially their more intricate stuff... and you will find it lacking. Again, this isn't meant to be a rant against jam style playing as much as just telling the OP that NO, it's not a bad thing to want to find players who feel the same way about how a song is played as you do. I think it's a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted September 20, 2011 Members Share Posted September 20, 2011 Using Eagles and Steely Dan as examples? Seems to me the "perfection" of those bands lies in the fact that their originals were studio-created compositions and arrangements that the groups decided to "perfectly" recreate in later live performances. Had either band been bands more of the "lets jam 'em up and gig 'em out" types, I'm pretty sure songs like "New Kid in Town" and "Deacon Blues" would be much different arrangements. So if you're looking for THAT sort of perfection with your live performances, you need to have a solid (probably recorded) version of "THIS is how the song goes." But if your songs are works-in-progress to any degree, then you're not likely to ever achieve THAT level of perfection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted September 20, 2011 Members Share Posted September 20, 2011 I agree with Kramer...and I have found that learning covers note for note, even sols, has helped me pay attention to details in my own song writing. A lot of times, "good enough" is good enough, but it will hinder you from being great and keep you from developing your ear to what it could be. Here's a case in point: my last cover band (that I recently quit) was playing "Running Down A Dream" by Petty. We were playing the chorus A-G-E, E G A. It never sounded right to me. Everyone else shrugged and said "sound's good to me!". So I put the CD on and sure enough, the chorus was D-G-E, E-G-A, D-G-E, E-G-A, then A-G-E. We fixed it and it sounded better to me. Would it have made a difference to the average bar patron? Probably not. But it's paying attention to detail that makes one a better player and writer, IMO. I'm not saying every cover has to be played like the record, and I don't do that myself. But it's nice to know I could if I had to, because when I learn them, I learn them as close to the original as I can get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted September 20, 2011 Members Share Posted September 20, 2011 So if you're looking for THAT sort of perfection with your live performances, you need to have a solid (probably recorded) version of "THIS is how the song goes." Yeah, good point. In our case we spend a lot of time working up arrangements in rehearsal, record our rehearsals, listen back later, decide on how they could be improved, rinse, repeat. Then we play it out a few times and see how it feels. Once things are tweaked the way we like them, we record the song. Oftentimes the recorded version does end up being different from how we play it live - I'm not a big fan either of note for note renditions. And anyway we like to have the freedom to do overdubs and things in the studio that we can't reproduce live. Also, once we've been playing a song out for a little while the arrangement often morphs a bit - we'll extend a section or do a breakdown or something else that allows for some spontaneity. Again, though, we usually decide at a previous rehearsal that we're going to do this. We don't strive for Eagles/Steely Dan type perfection - that wouldn't be appropriate for our music - but we do rely on pretty tightly crafted arrangements to get our thing across. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SLScott86 Posted September 20, 2011 Members Share Posted September 20, 2011 Yeah, good point. In our case we spend a lot of time working up arrangements in rehearsal, record our rehearsals, listen back later, decide on how they could be improved, rinse, repeat. Then we play it out a few times and see how it feels. Once things are tweaked the way we like them, we record the song. Oftentimes the recorded version does end up being different from how we play it live - I'm not a big fan either of note for note renditions. And anyway we like to have the freedom to do overdubs and things in the studio that we can't reproduce live. Also, once we've been playing a song out for a little while the arrangement often morphs a bit - we'll extend a section or do a breakdown or something else that allows for some spontaneity. Again, though, we usually decide at a previous rehearsal that we're going to do this. We don't strive for Eagles/Steely Dan type perfection - that wouldn't be appropriate for our music - but we do rely on pretty tightly crafted arrangements to get our thing across. That sounds pretty healthy to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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