Proof You Can Still Make Big Money in Music

[Anderton]

So are arrangers not musicians because they are embellishing someone else's creativity? You could say an arranger has to know music theory and that's the difference, but ultimately, the definition of "musician" is "a composer, conductor, or performer of music; especially : instrumentalist." I think Traktor and an S4 qualifies as an instrument; it requires physical dexterity, practice, and the ability to combine musical elements in a subjectively pleasing way. The musical elements are stems or tracks instead of notes, but they're still musical elements that need to be combined to create a performance, using an instrument.

[MikeRivers]

So are arrangers not musicians because they are embellishing someone else's creativity? You could say an arranger has to know music theory and that's the difference, but ultimately, the definition of "musician" is "a composer, conductor, or performer of music; especially : instrumentalist."

 

Q: What's a musician?

 

A: Someone who tries to make big money with music.

 

I think that DJs who use turntables and stray sounds to create new songs from existing recordings are as skillful and knowledgable about musical elements as any instrumentalist. But it's a non-mainstream kind of skill so that I'd rather call them "turntablists" rather than "musicians,"

 

 

[Notes_Norton]

I think the difference between a good DJ and one who plays a traditional musical instrument is like the difference between a collage artist and an oil painter.

 

The DJ and Collage artist can make art, but it is limited to using snippets of what other people have already created.

 

The oil painter and the person who plays a musical instrument are not limited by snippets of what others have created, and therefore have a more unlimited potential.

 

To put both in the same classification is wrong. That's not the same as saying there is anything wrong with the collage artist or DJ, just different.

 

Putting them in the same classification would be like calling both a Filet Mignon and a Hamburger "Steak".

 

It's also a little like the present trend to call every person who served in the Military a "Hero", even if he/she spent their entire hitch at a desk job safe and sound in the USA. It diminishes the accomplishment of the true hero who under enemy gunfire ran out and saved his/her buddy or a group of orphans. The two are simply not the same. True, they both went to boot camp and served our country, true they both agreed to risk all when they enlisted, true that their service was both essential, but not true that their service was the same.

 

So that is why calling a DJ a musician and equating him or her to one who plays a chromatic instrument is wrong.

 

Insights and incites by Notes

[Geoff Grace]

Of course, it helps to remember that some DJs are instrumentalists who use their playing as part of their music.

 

So many of the lines are blurred these days. As a composer, I can confidently say that most of us play an instrument; but many of us will also incorporate loops into our compositions for expediency—especially those of us who work under tight deadlines. Does that make us any less a musician?

 

There are plenty of solo artists who can't play a note and write their music without knowing a chord, yet we've long ago accepted them as musicians.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[MikeRivers]

I think the difference between a good DJ and one who plays a traditional musical instrument is like the difference between a collage artist and an oil painter.

 

The DJ and Collage artist can make art, but it is limited to using snippets of what other people have already created.

 

The collage artist will take a piece of red cloth and use it someplace where he needs some red in his creation. A DJ will take a sound and "paint" it six different colors and use it wherever he needs those colors. A DJ (or studio engineer or producer) has more tools than a visual artist because we hear in more dimensions than we see.

 

A musical artist who assembles a new work from what other people have already created is a mix engineer. Am I right?

 

 

[Anderton]

I think the difference between a good DJ and one who plays a traditional musical instrument is like the difference between a collage artist and an oil painter.

 

The DJ and Collage artist can make art, but it is limited to using snippets of what other people have already created.

 

The oil painter and the person who plays a musical instrument are not limited by snippets of what others have created, and therefore have a more unlimited potential.

 

Notes man, I love ya...but this is soooooo wrong.

 

A guitarist is limited to using an instrument other people have already created, and can play only the notes and sounds that the instrument can create. A drummer is limited to using an instrument other people have already created. The drummer is creating a collage of drum sounds, if you will, just like the guitar player is making a collage from a bunch of notes played on previously-made strings on a previously-made guitar.

 

This also overlooks how much original content DJs use to embellish what they do. I can't tell you how many DJs I've worked with who have keyboards off to the side and add...well, anything, from bass lines to samples. Or Kid Simius, a DJ who plays guitar (I think it's a Gibson )...or Ilan Bluestone, who constructs his sets and loops in SONAR using a variety of virtual instruments. Or hell, me - who does DJ-type sets in Ableton Live using a combination of loops I've created and other loops, with guitar and vocal overlays on top.

 

If a collage artist wrote and published the newspaper needed to extract the elements for a collage, is that person any less an artist than an oil painter - who after all, probably didn't create the paint, the brushes, or the canvas but is just combining colors that already existed?

[Anderton]

Okay...I found an example of what I'm talking about. This is over 10 years old, and recorded on the floor of the NAMM show (!). Unfortunately you don't get to see what my hands are doing much (except when I'm playing guitar toward the end), but it's all improvised, and there are no "mixes" of sounds (well, except something like the drums in a drum kit) - each audio stream is its own loop or one-shot. I have to keep track of which loops are playing, which to fade in, which to fade out, when to trigger one-shots, which loops to have on-deck for the next section - and call up whatever loops I've selected at the right time, with perfect rhythm. I also have to "play" the computer as much as I "play" the PC-1600 fader box.

 

This takes the idea of a "production DJ" to somewhat of an extreme, but then again, DJs using something like Traktor have to hone a skill set that can be equally challenging.

 

You could say I'm just "mixing," but mixing is a far more static process - most of it's even automated. I feel that what I'm doing is playing an instrument just as much as pushing various combinations of 88 switches to trigger strings is playing an instrument.

 

 

[Notes_Norton]

Nice work Craig!

 

Perhaps I gave the wrong impression. I don't mean to say one is better than the other. Just different.

 

The collage artist can do things the oil painter cannot do, and vice versa. They are both visual art, but different kinds of visual art.

 

Same for DJ and Musician. Related in they they both produce music, but in a different way.

 

I'm certainly not dissing their skills or the music they create. I just see it as different.

 

I guess I'm just stubborn that way? Too old school? Maybe.

 

Notes

[Anderton]

Definitely different...like songwriting vs. conducting vs. arranging vs. soloing vs. DJing. But, the point I'm making is they're all musicians. Someone isn't not a musician because they use non-traditional instruments, especially if what they do is sufficiently difficult to require technique and years of practice.

 

It reminds me of when samplers came out and people were saying they were going to put musicians out of work. My standard reply was "Who do you think plays them? Accountants?"

 

Of course, on one level samplers did put musicians out of work. But, they also gave work to a new generation of musicians, and allow for musical forms that had not existed previously.

 

It's going to get really interesting when virtual reality gets into the picture, and we start seeing virtual controllers that don't even have a mechanical component. I think we'll be in for a wild ride starting in about 5 years.

[MikeRivers]

 

It's going to get really interesting when virtual reality gets into the picture, and we start seeing virtual controllers that don't even have a mechanical component. I think we'll be in for a wild ride starting in about 5 years.

 

If I stare at the bass player from the house console while wearing VR goggles, can I turn his amplifier volume down? If so, I'll take two.

[WRGKMC]

My first job out of college as an electronic tech was building and installing sound systems in night clubs. Most of them played disco music and has in house DJ's. I sure don't consider that part of the music making business. That's a music delivery business. Very different thing in my book.

 

I had a cousin that did sound in the Philadelphia Spectrum back in the 70's. At least that kind of work had live bands even though the sound companies were often a local company contracting sound.

 

Electronica/warehouse music is an off shoot of what a DJ does. I can make somewhat of a stretch of it being live, even though there's all kinds of loops and pre programing involved. It takes allot of musical and technical skill to put those kinds of gigs together and the person doing it does have some kind of live control over the music.

 

Rap is another that is a takeoff on a DJ. Allot of rappers are simply Karaoke singers singing to backing tracks or working with a sequencing engineer. The who thrust of it comes from preachers in the black church much like the blues had its roots in Gospel music. Preaching to a synthetic beat in a monotone pitch delivering rapid fire words isn't exactly what I'd call making music, but each to his own.

 

Rappers that actually use live musicians are few but because they do have live voice you could consider it as being somewhat live music even if it often has no melody. I still cant stand to listen to it for very long. The repetitive drum loops are like Chinese water torture to my ears.

[Ernest Buckley]

So are arrangers not musicians because they are embellishing someone else's creativity? You could say an arranger has to know music theory and that's the difference, but ultimately, the definition of "musician" is "a composer, conductor, or performer of music; especially : instrumentalist." I think Traktor and an S4 qualifies as an instrument; it requires physical dexterity, practice, and the ability to combine musical elements in a subjectively pleasing way. The musical elements are stems or tracks instead of notes, but they're still musical elements that need to be combined to create a performance, using an instrument.

 

Arrangers have their own unique ability to combine sounds like DJs. Arrangers create in their own way as DJs but at the end of the day, neither one is writing their own music or playing it. My definition of a musician is one who composes and/or performs.

[Anderton]

 

Arrangers have their own unique ability to combine sounds like DJs. Arrangers create in their own way as DJs but at the end of the day, neither one is writing their own music or playing it. My definition of a musician is one who composes and/or performs.

 

 

Well, then DJs are musicians because they perform with an instrument. If composition is necessary to be musician, then Segovia and Glenn Gould weren't musicians because they just played music written by other composers.

 

And in a way, it's debatable whether DJs are composing or not when they're putting together stems, samples, and tracks to create something original.

[Geoff Grace]

I know arrangers don't legally compose music, but I think that's due more to the limits of politics and politicians more than what's legitimately a composition. As a composer, I can vouch for the fact that there's a lot of training, musical knowledge, and creativity that goes into an instrumental track. It's a shame that an a cappella melody and lyrics are considered the song and the rest is dismissed as unworthy of the name "composition" or royalties. Certainly, classical composers know better.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[sventvkg]

Forbes' annual Electronic Cash Kings list of the top-earning DJ’s shows 10 people collectively earning over $250 million through music, gigs and brand endorsements. Calvin Harris gets paid more than $400,000 per Vegas gig...here are the top 10.

1. Calvin Harris – $63 million 2. Tiesto – $38 million 3. David Guetta – $28 million 4. Zedd – $24.5 million 5. Steve Aoki – $23.5 million 6. Diplo – $23 million 7. Skrillex – $20 million 8. Kaskade – $19 million 9. Martin Garrix – $16 million 10. Dimitri Vegas & Like Mike – $15.5 million

 

That's not {censored}ing music dude...Sorry. It's bull{censored}.

[sventvkg]

I was doing a seminar once on DJ techniques and paid someone $20 to yell out "That isn't music!!" to generate a little controversy

 

I think that being able to entertain thousands of people for several hours at a stretch without making a single mistake is pretty difficult. Like most music only a small percentage is exceptional. But I'll never forget the first time I saw a really, really good DJ in action. It was highly educational, and downright inspiring.

 

it's definitely entertainment to some but NOT like writing a song. It's arranging sounds and beats. It's not what a songwriter does and frankly it doesn't touch your soul like a great timeless song does. It's flash...Candy..In the moment fluff just like most pop music...Whatever. Cool....

[Anderton]

 

it's definitely entertainment to some but NOT like writing a song. It's arranging sounds and beats. It's not what a songwriter does and frankly it doesn't touch your soul like a great timeless song does.

 

So why can't both be valid manifestations of making music? As I mentioned before, Segovia didn't write songs either. But he chose which timeless compositions to play that would rock his audience.

 

As to touching one's soul...I gotta disagree there. I've heard some sets that took me to a level that no song could ever do. But, that doesn't mean I don't appreciate songs, I love a well-crafted song...but I also love a well-crafted DJ set, and producer DJs (remember, I'm not talking about the mobile DJs at weddings) have the luxury of playing with your emotions for hours at a stretch. One of the beautiful aspects of EDM is that it's designed to live in the moment and produce an experience that didn't exist before and likely won't exist again, although it might in another form. The goal is not to create timeless songs...we have songwriters for that

 

Some guys like blondes, some redheads, some brunettes. Doesn't mean one is better than the other.

 

It's really, really hard to write a great song. It's also really, really hard to resonate with an audience emotionally for hours at a stretch and never make a mistake. The DJs who get serious money are paid the big bux because they create an unmatched, and frankly sometimes unforgettable, live experience. But of course, I have to add the disclaimer I'm talking about the DJ equivalents of Jimi Hendrix, not the DJ equivalents of the Lemon Pipers.

[Idunno]

Definitely different...like songwriting vs. conducting vs. arranging vs. soloing vs. DJing. But, the point I'm making is they're all musicians. Someone isn't not a musician because they use non-traditional instruments, especially if what they do is sufficiently difficult to require technique and years of practice.

 

It reminds me of when samplers came out and people were saying they were going to put musicians out of work. My standard reply was "Who do you think plays them? Accountants?"

 

Of course, on one level samplers did put musicians out of work. But, they also gave work to a new generation of musicians, and allow for musical forms that had not existed previously.

 

It's going to get really interesting when virtual reality gets into the picture, and we start seeing virtual controllers that don't even have a mechanical component. I think we'll be in for a wild ride starting in about 5 years.

 

My bolded text.

 

Okay, I can bang two sticks together in time with a melody and call myself a percussionist, or learn to use a full drum kit, or learn to replicate a kit electronically and still command musician bragging rights. I get it, but we're not talking about traditional musicianship. We're talking about retiring real instruments and the whole of that art form because it's cheaper to make EDM, and then fraudulently foisting it onto the airways as a traditional musical instrument art form people appreciate.

 

Or, am I to assume that people don't really care how music is made?

 

Suppose we travel to a concert composed of knob-spinners on geek boards because that's all there is to show for the noise the industry is promoting. Do we expect an audience of Bic-flickers giving it up for high-energy stage knob spinning and sliding gesticulations from board jockeys? Wow, now that's a show I can just imagine spending at least 50-cents a ticket for.

 

I read where EDM no longer includes guitars here

 

It's a sad, sad day when forums such as this attempt to dupe musicians into thinking they can make music in the manner this thread pretends to. Not front office material at all.

 

 

[Anderton]

Okay, I can bang two sticks together in time with a melody and call myself a percussionist, or learn to use a full drum kit, or learn to replicate a kit electronically and still command musician bragging rights. I get it, but we're not talking about traditional musicianship. We're talking about retiring real instruments and the whole of that art form because it's cheaper to make EDM.

 

Why does everything have to be "or"? Why can't it be "and"?

 

Or, am I to assume that people don't really care how music is made?

 

I don't think the average listener cares how music is made if it delivers the emotional impact they seek. No one is ever going to say "I sure like this song because it uses Pro Tools and a Manley preamp."

 

Suppose we travel to a concert composed of knob-spinners on geek boards because that's all there is to show for the noise the industry is promoting. Do we expect an audience of Bic-flickers giving it up for high-energy stage knob spinning and sliding gesticulations from board jockeys? Wow, now that's a show I can just imagine spending at least 50-cents a ticket for.

 

I take it you have never sought out a really good EDM concert to find out what it's like...

 

I read where EDM no longer includes guitars here

 

All the better for me as a guitarist. As I've mentioned before, several EDM acts have welcomed me with open arms because of the element a guitar can add. I get to be novel for at least a few more years...

 

It's a sad, sad day when forums such as this attempt to dupe musicians into thinking they can make music in the manner this thread pretends to. Not front office material at all.

 

It's a sad, sad day when people are reduced to claiming that a forum is "duping" musicians. I don't create reality, I report on it.

 

I am a musician. That means that I play and love music. My main proficiency is on guitar but I also play keyboards and (gasp!! HORROR!!!) electronic instruments. I've produced/engineered exceptional classical artists, played Carnegie Hall, toured as a rock and roller, worked on a string of "new age" hits back in the 80s, and played with electronic and EDM bands in Europe. To me, it's all music. It's a sad day when people put something down just because they don't understand it.

 

Everything you're saying now is what people said about rock and roll when it first came out. "It's just a bunch of talentless non-musicians playing repetitive crap that all sounds the same, it's not real music. And they just use gimmicks like reverb to cover up the fact that they can't sing."

 

Or how about Beethoven's reviews from the small-minded people of his times? All of his early symphonies were pretty much trashed by the critics but the concert-goers recognized his talent. Later symphonies had a more divided response; only the 9th got decent reviews out of the box.

 

"The premier of the Second Symphony was given on April 5, 1803, and, as with the First, critical reception of this work was not good. For example, in Leipzig, the Zeitung für die Elegante Welt referred to it as ‘a gross enormity, an immense wounded snake, unwilling to die, but writhing in its last agonies, and in the Finale bleeding to death.’ The English were no more kind. The critics of the Harmonicon thought it had ‘grotesque melody and harshly combined harmony.’ In fact, it is the slow movement that seems to have been the only one to win general approval.”

 

"It is clearly a testament to the enormous vision and ambition of Beethoven that he continued to write symphonies at all—he certainly didn’t receive any encouragement from the critics to do so. From his experience, all composers can learn something: take criticism with a grain of salt. The critics don’t always have the last word."

 

I love Beethoven. Bach is one of my heroes, as is John Coltrane. Jimi Hendrix re-defined the electric guitar, but Django Reinhart's charm is undeniable. It was hearing Segovia for the first time that made me want to play guitar. And I love playing with Ableton Live and Traktor as well as recording guitar, vocals, and songs in SONAR - and combining the two.

 

Because I've been working with EDM since the late 90s, I recognize how difficult it is to do well. Thankfully, I'm a musician so I can figure it out.

 

As to Bobby's article...c'mon. Music goes in cycles. How do you think all the baroque players felt when the world turned to the lighter and more precious gestalt of early classical...which in turn transitioned into the high-classical musical style of Haydn and Mozart? I'm sure there were baroque musicians complaining about it being a "sad, sad day" that the public was being duped in accepting this plainer, less grandiose, and un-ornamented music that was clearly written for a dumbed-down audience.

 

And by the way, despite what people were saying at the time, that horrible rock and roll thing some people dared to call music didn't die. Neither will EDM. It will continue to evolve as the stakes get pushed higher.

 

 

 

 

[Anderton]

BTW - I'm working on aDJ controller design that's designed specifically for performance. The whole point is to bring it more into the musical instrument category - it's not like Ableton's Push, but has a similar goal.

[davd_indigo]

My impression when I hear EDM is that it sounds automated and synthetic. I've struggled to come up with what seems like a fitting analogy. I'm getting the impression from Craig that it is an idiom best suited for live performance. Like a magic act.

 

The question that occurred to me is whether there is EDM that merits repeated listens. When I do focused listening, it's typically things like Beatles, Louis Jordan (and his Tympani Five) , Duke Ellington. Even things like 1950's Black gospel (on a reissue label - JSP Records) .My point is that repeated listenings are satisfying with this music. When I hear EDM, I hear nothing that I'd want to listen to twice a week for a couple of months. Maybe EDM has yet to evolve with their version of a Hendrix or Beatles.

 

Does the EDM genre contain music that has interesting well crafted harmony, rhythms or melody? All I seem to hear is repetitive mechanized loops. I know I"m probably missing something.

[MikeRivers]

Now everyone can be a DJ.

 

 

 

For those of us who think that Pizza Hut pizza tastes like cardboard, maybe the next version can be with the sensors and electronics embedded right in the pizza.

[Ernest Buckley]

An architecture sits down to design a house. He spends a couple of days banging out the general idea and then a few more weeks re-writing and tweaking minor things here and there. Finally after months of preparation, the foundation is laid, walls go up, electrical and plumbing lines are put in, then the sheetrock. Painters come in and everything is brand new, shiny, and beautiful.

 

The buyer hires an overpaid interior designer who puts up art, places the furniture, and buys a chandelier.

 

The new buyers walk in, fall in love with the place, tell all their friends what a fantastic job their "designer" did and completely forget the architect who built the damn thing in the first place. DJ`ing in a nutshell...

 

 

[davd_indigo]

Some here might find this interesting. I watched it for a class I took. I talks about research by neuroscientists into the physics of music related to our biology. Or something like that ? It has Bobby McFerrin very prominently featured. And Yo Yo Ma.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5pwSMDTD4M

[AlamoJoe]

"I don't think the average listener cares how music is made if it delivers the emotional impact they seek. No one is ever going to say "I sure like this song because it uses Pro Tools and a Manley preamp."

 

That's perfect Craig...May have to borrow that without permission in the future.

 

This thread has had some interesting arguments...But some old ones as well.

Music has been changing since artists started using tape loops back in the 60's. The Beatles, Hendrix, I could go on.

I have to side with Craig on the issue of EDM and DJ's, even though I don't care for or listen to either of those forms.

 

What is songwriting, but assembling different chords and progressions, different notes and rhythms, different rhymes and verses? It's still assembly isn't it? Whether you are doing it on a guitar or a piano, with your voice, with electronic instruments, with loops...Or with records on turntables, you're still assembling bits to make a whole. I'd argue that makes you a musician. If the end product is a piece of music. Whether or not my ear recognizes it as such, or appreciates it matters not one bit.

 

These forums are filled with people appreciating music and artists that I've never heard of, and some I have, espousing the greatness and genius of same. Most of the time I just scratch my head and think, "Uh..Ok...I don't really hear that...But to each his own"..

 

I listen to stuff all the time that I'm unfamiliar with, especially a lot of the stuff that gets thrown up in the Music Association Game. Trying to broaden my musical palette. Sometimes I do find something I have not heard that I find I like. Rarely though. My musical prejudices are I think too deeply embedded into who I am to significantly broaden.

 

But I am not yet to the point where I'm ready to define anyone's efforts or performances as music, or not. To definitively state that a guitar is an instrument, and a computer, or a turntable is not.

 

I hope that at least says something in me is still open minded.