Members Anderton Posted October 17, 2015 Members Share Posted October 17, 2015 ...started thinking about what was different. Every weekend I walk a few miles and listen to music on earbuds, but for some reason I was possessed to listen to a couple 60s compilations. A few things struck me immediately. Drums were relegated to the background. Even the more garagey kind of groups had polite drums. On some hits, the drums were mixed lower than we'd mix hand percussion these days. Tambourines were big. I guess it's because groups had lead singers who needed to keep their hands occupied. Ride cymbals were really common...hardly hear them at all any more. The audio field was either super-wide stereo due to the limited number of tracks, or essentially mono due to the limited number of tracks. Melody was dominant over rhythm. Recording quality was all over the map - muffled sounds, distortion, really clean...sometimes all in the same song Not quite sure when the switch was flipped that made drums take over, but blaming disco is simple and convenient Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted October 17, 2015 Members Share Posted October 17, 2015 It seems to me that people were trying to just deal with how loud and "bangy" drums were. They were probably just trying to manage the sound. And yeah, tambourines were big. Bringing up the bass and drums also brought up an emphasis on groove, most likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members onelife Posted October 17, 2015 Members Share Posted October 17, 2015 Not quite sure when the switch was flipped that made drums take over, but blaming disco is simple and convenient I think it might have been Abbey Road - the drums were close miced and mixed in stereo and lot of people listened to that album. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author MikeRivers Posted October 17, 2015 CMS Author Share Posted October 17, 2015 ...started thinking about what was different. Every weekend I walk a few miles and listen to music on earbuds, but for some reason I was possessed to listen to a couple 60s compilations. A few things struck me immediately. Drums were relegated to the background. Tambourines were big. Ride cymbals were really common...hardly hear them at all any more. The audio field was either super-wide stereo due to the limited number of tracks, or essentially mono due to the limited number of tracks. Melody was dominant over rhythm. Recording quality was all over the map - muffled sounds, distortion, really clean...sometimes all in the same song Yeah, didn't they sound great in spite of all that? Well, maybe not to everybody, which is why things changed. I've heard a few "how to mix" talks where just about the first thing covered were drums because "drums are the most important part of the music." I never thought that, but then I'm not like making big bucks as a mix engineer. Nobody close-miked drums in those days. One reason was that most studios didn't have enough channels, much less tracks. At Abbey Road, when recording engineers wore white lab coats, putting a mic near a drum was against house rules. I think it might have Geoff Emerick who stood up to them and did it on The Beatles. The drummer was there to keep the band together in time, not to be the centerpiece of the band. The words and music were the song. And the song was the thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted October 17, 2015 Members Share Posted October 17, 2015 Nobody close-miked drums in those days. One reason was that most studios didn't have enough channels, much less tracks. At Abbey Road, when recording engineers wore white lab coats, putting a mic near a drum was against house rules. I think it might have Geoff Emerick who stood up to them and did it on The Beatles. The drummer was there to keep the band together in time, not to be the centerpiece of the band. The words and music were the song. And the song was the thing. That's what I was getting at when I mentioned the drums being loud and "bangy". I think they were trying to manage this thing that people were banging on! And yeah, not enough tracks (or channels), agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted October 17, 2015 Author Members Share Posted October 17, 2015 I've heard a few "how to mix" talks where just about the first thing covered were drums because "drums are the most important part of the music." I never thought that, but then I'm not like making big bucks as a mix engineer. If you want an alternate perspective, come to my seminars I always say vocals are the most important part...well, at least if the songs have vocals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nat whilk II Posted October 17, 2015 Members Share Posted October 17, 2015 ,,,a couple 60s compilations. A few things struck me immediately. [*]Drums were relegated to the background. Even the more garagey kind of groups had polite drums. On some hits, the drums were mixed lower than we'd mix hand percussion these days. Not quite sure when the switch was flipped that made drums take over, but blaming disco is simple and convenient My memory of that period concurs, but I remember a stylistic thread that developed vaguely from instrumentals such as Wipe Out ('63), some of the big drummers from the Big Band era that still showed up on TV variety shows (Krupa, Buddy Rich), the influence on all drummers from Take Five, with a big milestone with Keith Moon on The Who's My Generation (1965) being about the wildest drums yet imagined for rock and roll (not "rock" quite yet). There was this simmering desire for heavier and heavier music - Ticket To Ride was another big milestone in that direction - and the big psychedelic bands of the later 60s gave drums a central place - Vanilla Fudge, Iron Butterfly, and especially Ginger Baker with Cream, segued into drums being such a huge part of the sound - the drums on Led Zeppelin's first in 1969 being perfectly integrated into the Heavy Rock thing by that time fully established as a genre of sorts. By the time disco came around, there was one more big shift in recording styles - the taste for much simpler, clearer tracks, with every instrument clearly defined, kicked in about the time of Abbey Road, 1970. The dead drum rooms, with close-mic'ing, the higher fidelity playback, made it easier to bring up the drums as the drummers were not flailing around, and the huge washes of heavy rides and constant crashes and blinding speed fills went out of style (except for prog which kept going in it's own sub-genre away from the mainstream.) As for the mainstream peak, you get something like Mick Fleetwood's stripped-down style - 1975's beautiful simplicity. You also get Don Henley's dead simple, boring drumming with the Eagles. For many of us, the upfront drum thing reached ridiculous heights in the 80s with those Phil Collins gated 'verb snares dominating so many recordings. Actually, I kind of like Collin's treatments, but it got so overused by everyone else. Anyway - that's how I see the history of it from my limited personal timeline and vantage point for what it's worth. nat whilk ii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted October 17, 2015 Author Members Share Posted October 17, 2015 Bringing up the bass and drums also brought up an emphasis on groove, most likely. I also noticed on a lot of the 60s cuts that bass was pretty prominent, but served more as a melodic component. I think we can trace that back to Paul McCartney. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members davd_indigo Posted October 17, 2015 Members Share Posted October 17, 2015 There was this simmering desire for heavier and heavier music - Ticket To Ride was another big milestone in that direction - and the big psychedelic bands of the later 60s gave drums a central place - Vanilla Fudge, Iron Butterfly, and especially Ginger Baker with Cream, segued into drums being such a huge part of the sound - the drums on Led Zeppelin's first in 1969 being perfectly integrated into the Heavy Rock thing by that time fully established as a genre of sorts nat whilk ii You mention Ticket To Ride. As I recall John said (maybe in the Playboy interview right before he was murdered) that Ticket To Ride was the first heavy metal song. Honestly, I didn't and still don't understand that comment. Is it the drum lick that is central to the song ? I guess I don't know my metal. Could someone say "Rain" was an early metal song ? I'm thinking the sound of the guitars. The kind of droning effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bookumdano4 Posted October 17, 2015 Members Share Posted October 17, 2015 I think it might have been Abbey Road - the drums were close miced and mixed in stereo and lot of people listened to that album. Well, except that the close micing of the drums.....AND the drum solo itself on side 2 of AR are basically because of and oriented from and due to...... wait for it.... Innagaddadavida. From 10 months before Abbey Road was tracked. Could it really be that we have Ina-gada-da-vida to thank for drums beginning to take center stage on pop music? In stereo? And with phasing inserts on the reverb no less......radical use of technology for the time. (I'm gonna discount Krupa and that entire genre). A strong can be argued by the brave for Iron Butterfly.... compare all the other releases of that 8 month period. In some respects, Magic Carpet Ride via Steppenwolf was a huge step in 1967 what with it's multi-micing on drums and Jerry's incredible r&b type drumming on the track (what neato bass drum, snare, hh interaction). But Ina-gada-da-vinci was still further along. Even trumping the technique on sort-of-same-time Sly Stone micing. I'm afraid we're gonna have to possibly maybe be thanking Iron Butterfly even though some will cringe..... Is Jann Wenner listening? As to disco, I'd revert back a couple of years to 1971 or so and the appearance of Papa Was A Rolling Stone and ESPECIALLY... Eddie Kendricks with Boogie Down where it was becoming obvious drums were taking some spotlight and being multi-mic'd. Same thing in August of 1972 with all the Philadelphia stuff like "Back Stabbers". Massive micing on those tunes. Arif was micing drums to the ceiling during the year or so before he began working with the Gibbs in 1974. So, I accuse and blame and congratulate Iron Butterfly, Arif Mardin, the waning days of Motown.....and Philadelphia.... for turning up the drums in pop. I'm not sure who killed ride cymbals, but I'm thinking about that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bookumdano4 Posted October 17, 2015 Members Share Posted October 17, 2015 I also noticed on a lot of the 60s cuts that bass was pretty prominent, but served more as a melodic component. I think we can trace that back to Paul McCartney. And I think he'd trace it to 1965-66 Brian Wilson. Which you could then argue Carol Kaye... but she was reading Brian's charts. Paul, for as much as we all love him and bow to him, WAS sort of playing plain vanilla bass parts until 1966. To me, he cranked into real melodic playing mode after Bruce Johnston played the Pet Sounds Acetate for John and Paul in London just before it was released. It was after that where I notice Paul's playing change radically.... such as the January "Penny Lane". In general, I agree that bass playing was a more melodic affair in that era. Even stuff like "Turn Down Day" and "Sunday Will Never Be the Same" have some inventive bass stuff going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted October 17, 2015 Members Share Posted October 17, 2015 Well, except that the close micing of the drums.....AND the drum solo itself on side 2 of AR are basically because of and oriented from and due to...... wait for it.... Innagaddadavida. From 10 months before Abbey Road was tracked. "Led Zeppelin I" was recorded about 11 months before "Abbey Road" as well, if that is also to be considered close miking. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Led_Zeppelin_(album) - recorded October 1968 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbey_Road - recorded September 1969 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members onelife Posted October 17, 2015 Members Share Posted October 17, 2015 I agree with your Iron Butterfly comment. Because the OP mentioned a switch being "flipped that made drums take over" I still want to say Abbey Road because of the widespread appeal of The Beatles and the fact that so many others wanted to emulate what they were doing in the studio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ernest Buckley Posted October 17, 2015 Members Share Posted October 17, 2015 When I think of the `60s, I think of jazz classics mostly. There were some milestone records made during that period and many of those records put the drums on the same level as the melodic instruments or close to it. I`m thinking of Love Supreme by John Coltrane, released in `64. There were many other jazz records made during that time that had similar instrumentation. And of course, many of those records were masterfully engineered by Rudy van Gelder. Amazing sounding records… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members onelife Posted October 17, 2015 Members Share Posted October 17, 2015 … and that was "pop" music. It must have been a great time to be recording and pushing the envelope while being influenced by their friends who were doing the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members davd_indigo Posted October 17, 2015 Members Share Posted October 17, 2015 When I think of the `60s, I think of jazz classics mostly. There were some milestone records made during that period and many of those records put the drums on the same level as the melodic instruments or close to it. I`m thinking of Love Supreme by John Coltrane, released in `64. There were many other jazz records made during that time that had similar instrumentation. And of course, many of those records were masterfully engineered by Rudy van Gelder. Amazing sounding records… Speaking of Coltrane, Roger McGuinn said something about modeling his guitar soloing on "8 Miles High" on John Coltrane's playing which was pretty abstract by this time. I love it that it came out sounding totally different with McGuinn's take on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted October 17, 2015 Members Share Posted October 17, 2015 "Led Zeppelin I" was recorded about 11 months before "Abbey Road" as well, if that is also to be considered close miking Naw. That would have been the Glyn Johns 3 mic technique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted October 17, 2015 Members Share Posted October 17, 2015 As far as "polite drums" ... Drummers were "encouraged" to,play quietly in the studio so as not to,leak into the other mics. I think part of what you frequently hear is the drummer tapping on the drum instead of bashing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted October 17, 2015 Members Share Posted October 17, 2015 Naw. That would have been the Glyn Johns 3 mic technique. Right, it's not close miking as we tend to do this today, but maybe it's relative. In your opinion, would the microphone for the kick drum in Johns' technique be noticeably closer than what was typically done back then? Regardless, the LZ drums sound considerably more physical and present than "Abbey Road", in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nat whilk II Posted October 17, 2015 Members Share Posted October 17, 2015 You mention Ticket To Ride. As I recall John said (maybe in the Playboy interview right before he was murdered) that Ticket To Ride was the first heavy metal song. Honestly, I didn't and still don't understand that comment. Is it the drum lick that is central to the song ? I guess I don't know my metal. Could someone say "Rain" was an early metal song ? I'm thinking the sound of the guitars. The kind of droning effect. Ticket To Ride was just big and pounding, slow and as you say, kind of droning. In the context of pop-rock on the radio, it was a big, big, loud and intense song - the kind the parents didn't much like. Edging toward the development of louder, bassier, head-pounding rock music. It was kind of a competition - who can come up with the next biggest, heaviest track? It didn't take long for much heavier stuff to start coming out, making Ticket To Ride sound pretty tame in comparison. Rain was huge because it had an unearthly sound - from the trick they used of recording the drums and guitars and slowing down the tape machine to drop the pitch and lengthen the tones. It was practically narcotic in the context of the times. nat whilk ii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AlamoJoe Posted October 18, 2015 Members Share Posted October 18, 2015 A lot of learned opinions on all this, all worthy opinions...But I'm thinking Keith Moon on "Happy Jack" preceded all other examples with the exception of The Surfaris "Wipe Out' insofar as putting the drums front and center. Still one of my favorite Who songs.Keith Moon was no polite drummer, no sir. He was a Holy F'n Terror machine. Pete may have been the only person who asked him to be "Polite" with his drumming. Obviously he was ignored.Glad Moonie ignored him. He was the most exciting drummer to watch...Energetic, animated, dynamic. I'm no drummer...But I thought/think he was great.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author MikeRivers Posted October 18, 2015 CMS Author Share Posted October 18, 2015 "Led Zeppelin I" was recorded about 11 months before "Abbey Road" as well, if that is also to be considered close miking. Was that the apocrophal John Bonham (or Glynn Johns, if you prefer) drum sound? Sure, three mics were more than none or one, but very different concept to close-miking every instrument in the kit, sometimes with more than one mic, for the highly detailed drum sounds, at any volume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nat whilk II Posted October 18, 2015 Members Share Posted October 18, 2015 Was that the apocrophal John Bonham (or Glynn Johns, if you prefer) drum sound? Sure, three mics were more than none or one, but very different concept to close-miking every instrument in the kit, sometimes with more than one mic, for the highly detailed drum sounds, at any volume. Glynn Johns says so in this clip about LZ I. To my ear, for what it's worth, the full-blown Bonham sound developed from that point - seems to me best epitomized in the drum intro to When The Levee Breaks on LZ IV. [YOUTUBE]j0mZ2_2Sctk[/YOUTUBE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Beck Posted October 19, 2015 Members Share Posted October 19, 2015 I don't know all the factors that led to drums becoming more dominant, but I would say simply more tracks available 16 and then 24 (or more when syncing decks) allowing us to isolate and treat the drum kit and and other percussion with more precision. That and progress with audio quality in recording decks and consoles even before digital became the norm. And then when digital arrived of course I have that theory (which is my own) that the harsh digital high end in the early days made us want to boost the bass and drums to relieve the aural discomfort... and I think that works to some degree. I think digital does bass very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mats Nermark Posted October 19, 2015 Members Share Posted October 19, 2015 I always say vocals are the most important part...well, at least if the songs have vocals. I always say the melody/theme is the most important part. Doesn't matter if it's conveyed by a vocalist or an instrument. Cheers, Mats N Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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