intonation at its limit but still flat

[knotty]

 

 

I was talking about their guitars and yes they do have a dual truss and yes they do have a recommended relief which is the same as any other guitar.

 

~~

 

I'd have to say you haven't got a clue of what I was talking about then. Maybe I didn't explain it well but I suggest you try this on an electric before you are so quick to jump to judgment. Just because you don't understand what someone is talking about doesn't make it nonsense.

 

 

Strings are angled downward angle on the fretboard with the bass strings higher then the thin strings. The string will hit the frets on the lower side sooner then they do on the higher side. You can get strings to intonate perfectly with a light touch on a tuner.

 

When you slam a power cord however the strings can twang sharp and eventually come back to pitch. You want an example of that with a single low string note listen to the opening guitar note on "I feel Fine" by the Beatles. You'll hear the note twang sharp and eventually buzz on the frets and come into pitch.

 

When you do a full hard upstroke on a guitar the low strings will often tend to twang sharp, (with thin strings) because they are higher and have less fret slap to prevent them from doing that. To prevent that sharpening of the string when you strum hard you can use the bridge height to taper that side effect down and get both the upstroke to match the down stroke so neither direction causes this effects.

 

Anyone with a good ear can hear this happen and I can probably list a hundred different recordings where it can easily be heard. The effect is much less likely to occur on a guitar with thicker strings so if you use 10's and up you may not even notice it. You may not notice it if you are a down stroke picker either. 9/42's on the other hand are very susceptible to this problem. If you don't understand what I'm talking then I and wasting my time explaining the cause and cure but you should do a bit of experimentation here and really listen to the strings before you make snap judgment. You can easily hear it when an electrics unplugged.

 

Sit it in an stand and strum across the strings with the front of the body facing you. I bet dollar's for donuts you'll have strings that go sharp when you strum them hard. That can be fixed, and that's exactly what I'm talking about.

 

 

I feel fine sounds like a fingernail to me.

Who rings all 6 strings on a power chord?

[onelife]

I feel fine sounds like a fingernail to me.

 

From what I understand, the sound at the beginning of "I Feel Fine" was a result of leaving the amplified acoustic unattended. When I played the song, I used my fingernail to get a similar effect on an electric guitar.

 

I don't know if the original 'accidental' sound was the one used on the recording or if they recreated the effect intentionally.

 

 

[BowerR65]

Another thing ive done is wedge the neck pocket to slightly move the neck back or towards the nut. (this is the last resort if nothing else works though) Ive used several layers of masking tape. Not the best way to do it but as long as the neck doesnt move its all good. You guys are the only ones ive told. shhhh

 

I have a sterling sub EVH clone that i couldnt get the low E intonated till i removed the little spring behind the saddle. It kept the saddle from moving back that extra little mm

 

 

[WRGKMC]

Listen carefully to the Who song, Wont get fooled again. If you compare it carefully to the keyboard you'll hear the strings twang sharp all over the place especially when Townsend slams the chords hard and it varies depending on whether he's using an up stroke or down stroke.

 

That particular guitar on that recording (a country gentleman I believe) given to him by Joe Walsh also had an E string used as a B string which made the problem even worse on the high strings. He only used that particular guitar for that album because it had issues and wouldn't remain in tune for live work. Rumor is he used another one live which he actually smashed up in a show and he still has the original. Townsend is a master guitar technician. he would smash a guitar up then reassemble it for another show until it was too beat up to use.

 

If you ever come across a guitar that does this, say on the low strings especially, give it a hard chord slam in the downward direction, listen to how the strings go sharp, then do a chord with the same energy on the up stroke and you'll usually find the length of time the string goes sharp then returns to pitch takes longer. The reason why its worse on the upstroke is because there is less fret slap when the string is plucked in that direction to impeded it from going sharp.

 

My comment probably wasn't specific enough for the critics here who are so quick to bash my post. Maybe asking to explain what I meant might make for some friendlier understanding around here. I posted that suggestion specifically to that phenomenon as an after thought and suggested how it can be tested and corrected. If the length of time the string twangs sharp is longer on the upstroke, bringing the strings down a tad should usually evens the length of time the string does twangs sharp. The goal is to get the effect to occur evenly in both stroke directions, not necessarily eliminate it. In this way you get fret slap works to your advantage and much will depend on your picking dynamics. If you use a light pick, low action, heavy strings, or pick mostly in one direction you may not even understand what I'm talking about here so it wouldn't apply.

[knotty]

[Freeman Keller]

Did Dadking ever come back with some measurements or did you all drive him away? Somehow I missed it if he did.

[DeepEnd]

Did Dadking ever come back with some measurements or did you all drive him away? Somehow I missed it if he did.

I haven't seen any measurements so I assume he's gone. He's probably looking for a more genteel forum. Too bad. We might have some spirited discussions but in the end we do actually manage to help folks occasionally.

[Burgess]

Did you shim the neck?

[Chordite]

I haven't seen any measurements so I assume he's gone. He's probably looking for a more genteel forum. Too bad. We might have some spirited discussions but in the end we do actually manage to help folks occasionally.

 

The odd bar brawl seems to be the norm on most forums, someone on another forum went full troll on me because I like Linkin Park. This forum is better than most TBH,

[knotty]

 

The odd bar brawl seems to be the norm on most forums, someone on another forum went full troll on me because I like Linkin Park. This forum is better than most TBH,

 

 

Linkin Park? You ****************ing wamker cnutt prick arsehoole!

[Danhedonia]

"Just because you don't understand what someone is talking about doesn't make it nonsense." It does if you watch Fox News!

 

That said, WRKMG I love you, but wound up scratching my head over your posts in this thread.

 

1. Some tormented grammar. As an occasional grammar cop, I will add my usual: if you would like me to understand you, please try to be understandable. Example: "To prevent that sharpening of the string when you strum hard you can use the bridge height to taper that side effect down and get both the upstroke to match the down stroke so neither direction causes this effects." Um, eh, what?

 

2. Would it be helpful to introduce the terms 'attack' and 'dwell?'

 

3. You say that bridge adjustments (which ones? adjusted which way?) can impact the different amounts of time that it can take for a dwell note on a given string to return to pitch after the attack? And that is uneven between strings and directional strumming? OK - Which bridge adjustments? Adjusted how?

 

4. To stir that pot further, I would guess I would not want to 'make the effect equal' for different directional strums. I want the variance. That would be part of playing, would it not?

[WRGKMC]

"Just because you don't understand what someone is talking about doesn't make it nonsense." It does if you watch Fox News!

 

That said, WRKMG I love you, but wound up scratching my head over your posts in this thread.

 

1. Some tormented grammar. As an occasional grammar cop, I will add my usual: if you would like me to understand you, please try to be understandable. Example: "To prevent that sharpening of the string when you strum hard you can use the bridge height to taper that side effect down and get both the upstroke to match the down stroke so neither direction causes this effects." Um, eh, what?

 

2. Would it be helpful to introduce the terms 'attack' and 'dwell?'

 

3. You say that bridge adjustments (which ones? adjusted which way?) can impact the different amounts of time that it can take for a dwell note on a given string to return to pitch after the attack? And that is uneven between strings and directional strumming? OK - Which bridge adjustments? Adjusted how?

 

4. To stir that pot further, I would guess I would not want to 'make the effect equal' for different directional strums. I want the variance. That would be part of playing, would it not?

 

I apologize for my Grammar. I likely posted that before I consumed my first cup of coffee. Some things can be difficult to describe in words yet on the other hand it can be so simple to just show someone first hand. I suppose I should make a video of the effect and show it being created and corrected, but when I've attempted to do similar things here, the efforts seem to receive more criticism then its worth.

 

I will attempt to clarify it one more time in.

 

I was focused on a TOM type bridge in my mind when I posted that which allows you to tweak either sides height by "very" small amounts. With separate saddle bridges you're dealing with separate keeping the height radiused as you tweak them which can be much more difficult to get right. You can adjust a TOM type bridge very easily so the amount of string slap is equalized across all the frets up and down the neck.

 

To understand that statement, you would need to have played a guitar that doesn't have an equal amount of string slap on the frets. Explaining a cure for something people don't notice as an issue is a problem. Its much easier to just hand someone and instrument to compare the differences. This issue can be one of the most important factors in a setup.

 

Just diagnosing it can be difficult because it can be so subtle you think its just the nature of the beast. When you do play an instrument that has the effect minimized it gives the instrument the ultimate tone and feel to the strings. Even budget instruments can be coaxed to get this high end feel so long as doesn't have any other issue to complicate the problem.

 

I will again say, if an instrument has its other issues taken care of, String choice, Relief, Fret radius corrected from wear, properly leveled and crowned frets, Intonation spot on, Nut height and everything else correctly set. All those things can be a cause or compound the issue so you really have to work through them one by one before you get to the final tweaks I'm talking about here.

 

You do have to add to that a persons playing style skill, pick thickness, playing style into this mix too. The reason I mention slam a chords, is because the strings can react erratically when pushed to their limits yet sound just fine with a light touch. The idea is to minimize that erratic behavior when you are pushing the strings and limit instead of having to limit how hard you strum so it doesn't exhibit that erratic behavior.

 

I hesitate to use this as an example because its actually too extreme, but those who have tried it can probably relate. Some of you may have tried putting light electric strings on an acoustic and found how awful it can sound. Of course the intonation, Nut and relief would be off but I'm only focusing on string height so you have to grant me the use of some imagination here. You could get single bar chord in tune with some effort. Your pick attack is going to be very critical in keeping that chord in tune when you strum the chord because the strings will twang sharp without fret slap to limit them.

 

When the height "is" tweaked just right, all six strings sound like a single solid note when you strum chords in either direction, like a solid chord on a piano. The string dynamics, sustain and the ability for light strings to twang sharp are all evened up.

[knotty]

Gibberish

 

 

Gibberish or gobbledygook refer to speech or other use of language that is nonsense, or that appears to be nonsense. It may include speech sounds that are not actual words,^[1] or forms such as language games or highly specialized jargon that seems non-sensical to outsiders.^[2] Gibberish should not be confused with literary nonsense such as that used in the poem "Jabberwocky" by Lewis Carroll.^{[citation needed]}

The word gibberish is more commonly applied to speech, while gobbledygook (sometimes gobbledegook, gobbledigook orgobbledegoo) is more often applied to writing.^{[citation needed]} "Officialese", "legalese", or "bureaucratese" are forms of gobbledygook. The related word jibber-jabber refers to rapid talk that is difficult to understand.^[3]

 

 

[gardo]

Gibberish

 

 

Gibberish or gobbledygook refer to speech or other use of language that is nonsense, or that appears to be nonsense. It may include speech sounds that are not actual words,^[1] or forms such as language games or highly specialized jargon that seems non-sensical to outsiders.^[2] Gibberish should not be confused with literary nonsense such as that used in the poem "Jabberwocky" by Lewis Carroll.^{[citation needed]}

The word gibberish is more commonly applied to speech, while gobbledygook (sometimes gobbledegook, gobbledigook orgobbledegoo) is more often applied to writing.^{[citation needed]} "Officialese", "legalese", or "bureaucratese" are forms of gobbledygook. The related word jibber-jabber refers to rapid talk that is difficult to understand.^[3]

 

So are you saying it's just too technical for you to understand ?

[knotty]

So are you saying it's just too technical for you to understand ?

 

Yeah of course, that must be it.

[Floyd Rosenbomb]

Ignore everything written in this thread until you do this,

 

 

It tried to save you guys the grief of this cluster hump on page one.

...you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

[WRGKMC]

I'm surprised the thread has made it to 5 pages with so few people visiting the site and actually having something positive to contribute. Most People do enjoy a good debate. The few who don't must be living a miserable life to be so negative all the time.

[Floyd Rosenbomb]

negative people gonna negative.

[DeepEnd]

It tried to save you guys the grief of this cluster hump on page one.

...you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

More like "You can lead some people to intelligent discourse but you can't make them think."