intonation at its limit but still flat

[sammyreynolds01]

 

 

I can see why you would want the OP to give you those measurements to help you advise him.

I dont understand why you would do it with a guitar in your workshop?

 

 

All the techs I know take measurements before and after any adjustments they make.

[Freeman Keller]

 

 

I can see why you would want the OP to give you those measurements to help you advise him.

I dont understand why you would do it with a guitar in your workshop?

 

Yes, as Sammyreynolds just said, every time a guitar comes into my workshop - whether it is one of mine or a friends or a customers - I take a couple of minutes and measure the action at the nut and 12th fret, the relief (at 7 for a steel string, 8 for an electric). I measure the neck angle relative to the bridge or the top. I measure the scale length and if it has adjustable bridge saddles, their location. I turn on my little Stroboflip tuner and check the intonation (just as I asked the OP to do) - open string, harmonic, fretted 12. I also learned from painful experience to put a pair of calipers on the strings so I know what the owner likes (I can tell you a long anecdote about doing a setup based on an assumption of what was on it and getting everything totally screwed up...). If I'm doing some sort of repair I'll take a picture of it before starting the work. Sometimes I'll rock the frets, usually I'll play each fret of each string listening for buzzes.

 

That takes all of five minutes - write everything down on a sheet of paper. When I'm done with whatever it is I'm doing I'll recheck all of these things and write it down again, date it and a copy goes in my file and one with the guitar. I've also made a habit of taking the package from a new set of strings, dating that and putting it in the case with the guitar - that way the owner knows what is on it and when they went on.

 

Your method and milage may vary, but the worst thing I can imagine is the "luthier" behind the counter at Joe's Music Store immediately grabbing a truss rod wrench as soon as the guitar is laid in front of him, followed immediately by a screwdriver at the saddle screws.

 

[RGfretter]

 

 

A typical floyd. " the only valid opinion is mine" response.

 

Child.

[RGfretter]

Sometimes you can turn the saddle around to get the needed adjustment.

 

Also check the relief (truss rod) as this is key.

 

There is also the option of a neck shim...this will often work as it sets the neck at a different angle and allows more adjustment in the saddles.

 

If you need more on the shim, PM me.

[onelife]

... Your method and milage may vary, but the worst thing I can imagine is the "luthier" behind the counter at Joe's Music Store immediately grabbing a truss rod wrench as soon as the guitar is laid in front of him, followed immediately by a screwdriver at the saddle screws.

 

Based on your posts in this thread, I would take my guitars to you when they needed work. Unfortunately I live in a very remote area and my guitars have not had the luthier touch for some time.

[knotty]

 

Yes, as Sammyreynolds just said, every time a guitar comes into my workshop - whether it is one of mine or a friends or a customers - I take a couple of minutes and measure the action at the nut and 12th fret, the relief (at 7 for a steel string, 8 for an electric). I measure the neck angle relative to the bridge or the top. I measure the scale length and if it has adjustable bridge saddles, their location. I turn on my little Stroboflip tuner and check the intonation (just as I asked the OP to do) - open string, harmonic, fretted 12. I also learned from painful experience to put a pair of calipers on the strings so I know what the owner likes (I can tell you a long anecdote about doing a setup based on an assumption of what was on it and getting everything totally screwed up...). If I'm doing some sort of repair I'll take a picture of it before starting the work. Sometimes I'll rock the frets, usually I'll play each fret of each string listening for buzzes.

 

That takes all of five minutes - write everything down on a sheet of paper. When I'm done with whatever it is I'm doing I'll recheck all of these things and write it down again, date it and a copy goes in my file and one with the guitar. I've also made a habit of taking the package from a new set of strings, dating that and putting it in the case with the guitar - that way the owner knows what is on it and when they went on.

 

Your method and milage may vary, but the worst thing I can imagine is the "luthier" behind the counter at Joe's Music Store immediately grabbing a truss rod wrench as soon as the guitar is laid in front of him, followed immediately by a screwdriver at the saddle screws.

 

 

I am not questioning the methodologyor your work freeman. I see the value of checking the whole picture, I was just trying to understand why you record them all.

[knotty]

 

Child.

Ah floyd. Youre back. La la la.

[WRGKMC]

 

 

I am not questioning the methodologyor your work freeman. I see the value of checking the whole picture, I was just trying to understand why you record them all.

 

 

I believe he's been doing it as part of his business model. Most businesses do keep records on their customers and when someone comes back a few years later with a new instrument and says set this up like you did the last one it can be a big time saver. I'd suggest doing it in a computer file though. You can set up an excel file for measurements and use a scanner for pictures. Saves space and time

[knotty]

 

 

I believe he's been doing it as part of his business model. Most businesses do keep records on their customers and when someone comes back a few years later with a new instrument and says set this up like you did the last one it can be a big time saver. I'd suggest doing it in a computer file though. You can set up an excel file for measurements and use a scanner for pictures. Saves space and time

 

 

If its just good customer records then I understand.

It sounded as if it were also an integral part and added some benefit to the setup process though. Thats what I didnt get. I know I didn't make that clear, not sure if I have yet!

[WRGKMC]

^^ Yea, when you do testing like that, before and after on every instrument you work on, you begin to see how bad adjustments develop specific symptoms. It does becomes an integral part of troubleshooting and narrows down the possibilities quickly. Its something needed in most service professions. Even a doctor will take measurements like basic blood pressure, temp and weight and compares it to your history on file before he makes a diagnosis and prescribes a remedy.

 

A guitar tech really isn't that much different when it comes to checking the basics before he applies a fix. If a tech didn't I probably wouldn't advise using that guy because he's more likely to use unsound methods for fixes. I work with techs all day long and you get to know the guys who have sound work methods and can be trusted from those who think they can troubleshoot by symptoms only and go for the quick fix.

 

The quick fix guys wind up having all the call backs and then they wind up throwing parts and time to cover up for their laziness. Maybe they had never been trained right, lack the skill, or are just lazy. It doesn't matter, their first time fix rate is poor because they guess too much.

 

We all know there can be many causes for the same symptoms on guitars and you should use at least have some facts to narrow down the possibilities. When I do repairs, and I have something really screwed up, putting it back to factory specs usually takes care of 90% of the major problems. The rest of the issues are usually the result of those bad setting and getting the last 10% can be difficult even for the best techs. Sometimes it takes extreme measures and other times it takes every ounce using micro tweaks and work rounds based on what the customer likes and what's best for the instrument.

 

Other times the best is just what you can get from budget instrument. Its got inherent quality issues and the only thing you can do is upgrade the entire instrument if you want something better. it can often times cost less too when you add up all the mods some people put into guitars.

[knotty]

I accept all that but still cant see the benefit of keeping historical measurements of how a guitar was set up when it was brought in. Unless its just evidence of what a mess it was before you started.

[Freeman Keller]

 

 

 

If its just good customer records then I understand.

It sounded as if it were also an integral part and added some benefit to the setup process though. Thats what I didnt get. I know I didn't make that clear, not sure if I have yet!

 

First, I'm an anal engineer. Second, I believe the each part of the guitars setup affects the others, I try to work in a systematic fashion when I do the work. Third, having a record of my own guitars lets me understand how they change over time (and when they might need something like a neck reset). Fourth, for my customers it is a way to document what I have done for them (and what they are paying for) - I always include this with a bill.

 

I'll give a couple of examples - we all know that changing the relief will change the action (and we should know that is not how you adjust the action). If I measure both and am happy with the relief then I can move forward to adjusting the action. We also al know that changing the action will change the intonation. It makes no sense to adjust the saddles before finalizing the action. And in my example above, I once did a setup based on the strings that were on a guitar (extremely light gauge) but the customer wanted to go to mediums - I had to redo everything (and it cost him more).

 

I don't do setups to hard and fast numbers - I like to watch the player play and try to adjust things to her style. But I do try to understand how these things work together. But I guess the bottom line is that I'm an anal engineer.

 

 

[knotty]

Thatnks for that. Your attention to detail does you credit. It shows in your build. I am far too impatient.

[onelife]

First' date=' I'm an anal engineer...[/quote']

 

The best guitar tech I ever had was a high school friend who was always interested in the guitar. He started out by repairing a stratocaster neck that I had smashed to the point where it could not be simply glued back together.

 

He went on to become a mechanical engineer and brought a lot of his engineering skills into his luthier business. Like you, he documented everything and, as a result I learned that my guitars with ebony fingerboards had a problem right around this time of year (the autumn equinox). Some frets would get a little high and cause buzzing. One guitar, a Gibson SG w/ebony would become unplayable but would return to normal after a week or two so it was best to leave it alone.

 

My guitars were always returned to me setup exactly the way I wanted them (including the number of wraps around the tuning pegs) and if there was something I wanted to change then all subsequent repairs/setups would come back with the change.

 

I'm okay with the person who looks after my guitars being an anal engineer - in fact I think it is a positive thing.

 

 

 

 

[Chordite]

Sometimes someone I have set up a guitar for says "I kinda preferred it like it was, can you put it back for me?" (some people seem to like a high action ) I realized after a couple of guitars that I was setting them up for me and that that was an error of arrogance. So keeping notes before I start allows me to get it back to where we started. Beats me but that's people and you just have to go with it.

[DeepEnd]

. . . I believe the each part of the guitars setup affects the others' date=' I try to work in a systematic fashion when I do the work. . . .[/quote']

I believe the same thing although we might disagree on some details. For example, I'm convinced higher action requires more relief. But as you said earlier, you can't get where you're going unless you know where you are. I don't touch a guitar until I know how it's set up now. The strings are buzzing? If so, what does the relief measure? How high is the action? Okay, I raised the action; how's the intonation now? Etc.

[Chordite]

For example, I'm convinced higher action requires more relief.

 

I am curious about your rationale for thinking that ?

[Freeman Keller]

I believe the same thing although we might disagree on some details. For example, I'm convinced higher action requires more relief....Etc.

 

I'll say that in general (and I hate generalities) higher relief requires higher action (which, of course is the same thing). If you have a lot of relief, which can be desirable for certain types of players (people who strum cowboy chords hard), then as you play up the neck you are pulling the strings down into a kind of valley and somewhere at the neck to body joint (14th on an acoustic, 16 on an electric) you run the risk of the string hitting the neck fret - to compensate you need to raise the action. Here is kind of a funky little diagram of what is going on, imagine the string fretted just to the left of the neck to body joint

 

 

If you want to wade thru a long but IMO good discussion on the effects of relief, take a look at this

 

http://www.bryankimsey.com/setup/neck_relief_1.htm

 

Bryan Kimsey is a highly respected repairman of Martin guitars, but what he says here applies to any guitar.

 

Lastly, my sequence of setting up a guitar involves setting the relief first (right after doing any fretwork), followed by nut and playing action, and finally, intonation.

[DeepEnd]

I am curious about your rationale for thinking that ?

No mystery. A string vibrates in an arc. If you need higher action, that means the arc is more pronounced. The fingerboard ought to follow that arc (which is what relief is). A couple of us thought of this over in the Bass Forum and it just makes sense, at least to me. Please note, this is not the same thing as adjusting action with the truss rod. But if you raise or lower the action it stands to reason (to me, anyway) that you also need to tweak the relief.

[WRGKMC]

But if you raise or lower the action it stands to reason (to me, anyway) that you also need to tweak the relief.

 

There are plenty of instruments that have a set relief that never gets touched. Guitars with aluminum necks, guitars with very stiff necks.

You can still raise or lower the action and never touch the relief.

 

What you are missing here is with string height changes comes string tension changes getting the strings pressed against the frets. If you raise the action, you usually need to lengthen the intonation. You shouldn't be messing with the truss to compensate for this increased string tension. You should always see the truss as being a fixed parameter and you will have fewer problems all the way through. I have several instruments where I haven't touched the truss since the day I bought them and I have no issues adjusting the string height using the bridge height and intonation.

 

Now you may have some instruments with very sensitive necks that may increase of decrease relief with string gauges, string height or intonation changes. In those cases you still don't want to use the truss as any kind of compensation for height. Instead, measure the relief with a straight edge as you make your height adjustments and keep the relief at the same setting. On guitars, A good medium setting that fist most electric players is between .09 and .010. An acoustic is normally higher. A bass is still higher than an acoustic.

 

Use that as a baseline for all your other adjustments. Begin with that setting and end with that setting and you can rarely go wrong with the rest. Where you get into problems is when you don't have enough relief or you have fret wear so someone flattens the neck to compensate for fret wear. This is where you get into all kinds of trouble.

 

Too much relief and you have increased issues with the instrument playing sharp in the center of the fretboard. You cant forget the instrument uses tempered tuning and strings have different tension on different frets. The 12/13 frets have the least string tension increase when depressed. and its also a perfect octave (or at least its supposed to be)

 

Setting intonation for a perfect octave doesn't mean all the other frets will be correct. If you use your tuner you can easily confirm this. The trick I use is to use a strobe tuner. Planet waves makes an excellent strobe tuner that's compares to a Peterson and its less then $50. I then set the height and relief tuned to pitch. Next I check the last frets intonation for each string first. Then the 17th, then the 12th then the 9th then the 5th frets I use all of those as guides in how the strings should be intonated. In many cases the 12th fret may be intonated to zero cents, but the last fret is still very sharp in comparison. This is where you get down to using micro tweaks and using your ears.

 

You want to be able to pull lengthwise on the last fret and get the tuner in pitch and still have the 12th fret in perfect intonation without any pull end to end on the string. This is a key item on setup. It ensures you high notes aren't sharp.

Below the 12th your relief tends to keep the notes in pitch based on the increased width of the frets. These frets are "supposed" to be placed so its in the best possible tuning with the recommended relief. This is why I say set the relief to specs and leave it alone and only tweak it if needed.

 

From here an excellent method of getting things tweaked in is to use an open string and fretted notes. Get your high string tuned to pitch, and have it intonate right at the 12th and last fret, Then pick it and your low E. The open string and 12th frets should match. The A string at the 5th and 17th frets should match. The D string at the 2nd and 14th string should match. Take the high E open and pick it with ever other strings E note and make sure they match. Then do the same thing with the B string, G string, D string etc. Make sure the open string matches every other matching note on the guitar neck.

 

From there you can go to tweaking 5ths and 7ths, but you run the risk of loosing the root notes which usually wind up becoming sharper as you get the 5ths and 7ths closer.

 

Between this method and using the tuner, you tweak the intonation for optimal results. When you are done if you notice sharp notes, check and make sure the relief hasn't changed. If it hasn't then you may need to tweak the height.

 

One excellent trick for height at this point is to compare a chords along the neck doing first down strokes and an then upstrokes. The chords should sound exactly the same. The high strings should be closer to the neck because the nut is lower on that side. The bridge is usually 2/64ths higher at the 12th fret on the low strings but this can vary depending on string type and nut height.

 

If you strum across the strings and it sounds in tune on the down stroke, but when you back stroke the strings sound sharp on the low strings, try tweaking the high strings up a tad, and the low strings down a tad. Fret slap should prevent the low strings from twanging sharp and the high strings will be freed a bit more to twang sharp. This is the key to getting the strings balanced for strumming all strings in tine in either direction. Of course after doing this you may have to go back to the other adjustments again. It should take less tweaking of zero in on them of course.

 

You have to use Measurements, Tuner and Ears, to get the best feel and playability. You don't want to work it bass ackwards starting with feel because its a dead end approach that can only lead to a bad setup. Fret positions are fixes and unless you use some creative crowning angles, there isn't anything you can do about their positions. Fret height, level and crowning come next. Then all your other adjustments are built upon fret positions and nut height and its "Always" going to be a compromise because a guitar uses tempered tuning. The nut is a key factor and few people realize just how critical its setup is to the rest of the guitar. Show me a wacked out guitar and chances are the nut has never been tweaked for fret wear and all the other adjustments are wacked because if it.

 

[knotty]

^ ^ ^ ^

This sounds novel. I have never played a guitar where upstroke and downstroke chords sound exactly the same. And I hope I never do.

[DeepEnd]

There are plenty of instruments that have a set relief that never gets touched. Guitars with aluminum necks, guitars with very stiff necks.

You can still raise or lower the action and never touch the relief.

Older Martins wit non-adjustable truss rods, classicals, etc. Yes, we're all aware of this. Thank you.

 

What you are missing here is with string height changes comes string tension changes getting the strings pressed against the frets. If you raise the action' date=' you usually need to lengthen the intonation. You shouldn't be messing with the truss to compensate for this increased string tension. You should always see the truss as being a fixed parameter and you will have fewer problems all the way through. . . . On guitars, A good medium setting that fist most electric players is between .09 and .010. An acoustic is normally higher. A bass is still higher than an acoustic.[/quote']

Actually, Rickenbacker recommends zero relief for bass necks. I confess I don't understand this. And heavier strings do in fact pull more strongly on the neck for a given pitch and scale length, which in turn has the potential to change relief.

What you are missing is a grasp of geometry and common sense.

 

. . . One excellent trick for height at this point is to compare a chords along the neck doing first down strokes and an then upstrokes. The chords should sound exactly the same. . . .

 

. . . If you strum across the strings and it sounds in tune on the down stroke, but when you back stroke the strings sound sharp on the low strings, try tweaking the high strings up a tad, and the low strings down a tad. . . .

Good Lord, I don't even begin to know where to start with this except to say it's complete nonsense. It's simply not possible for a string to produce different pitches depending on which direction you strike it.

[WRGKMC]

 

 

Actually, Rickenbacker recommends zero relief for bass necks. I confess I don't understand this. And heavier strings do in fact pull more strongly on the neck for a given pitch and scale length, which in turn has the potential to change relief.

What you are missing is a grasp of geometry and common sense.~~.

 

I was talking about their guitars and yes they do have a dual truss and yes they do have a recommended relief which is the same as any other guitar.

 

~~

Good Lord' date=' I don't even begin to know where to start with this except to say it's complete nonsense.[/quote']

I'd have to say you haven't got a clue of what I was talking about then. Maybe I didn't explain it well but I suggest you try this on an electric before you are so quick to jump to judgment. Just because you don't understand what someone is talking about doesn't make it nonsense.

 

 

Strings are angled downward angle on the fretboard with the bass strings higher then the thin strings. The string will hit the frets on the lower side sooner then they do on the higher side. You can get strings to intonate perfectly with a light touch on a tuner.

 

When you slam a power cord however the strings can twang sharp and eventually come back to pitch. You want an example of that with a single low string note listen to the opening guitar note on "I feel Fine" by the Beatles. You'll hear the note twang sharp and eventually buzz on the frets and come into pitch.

 

When you do a full hard upstroke on a guitar the low strings will often tend to twang sharp, (with thin strings) because they are higher and have less fret slap to prevent them from doing that. To prevent that sharpening of the string when you strum hard you can use the bridge height to taper that side effect down and get both the upstroke to match the down stroke so neither direction causes this effects.

 

Anyone with a good ear can hear this happen and I can probably list a hundred different recordings where it can easily be heard. The effect is much less likely to occur on a guitar with thicker strings so if you use 10's and up you may not even notice it. You may not notice it if you are a down stroke picker either. 9/42's on the other hand are very susceptible to this problem. If you don't understand what I'm talking then I and wasting my time explaining the cause and cure but you should do a bit of experimentation here and really listen to the strings before you make snap judgment. You can easily hear it when an electrics unplugged.

 

Sit it in an stand and strum across the strings with the front of the body facing you. I bet dollar's for donuts you'll have strings that go sharp when you strum them hard. That can be fixed, and that's exactly what I'm talking about.

[DeepEnd]

I was talking about their guitars and yes they do have a dual truss and yes they do have a recommended relief which is the same as any other guitar.

But that's not what you said:

[The relief on] A bass is still higher than an acoustic.

Rickenbacker is an example of a bass having less relief not more.

 

I'd have to say you haven't got a clue of what I was talking about then. Maybe I didn't explain it well . . .

Bingo!

 

When you slam a power cord however the strings can twang sharp and eventually come back to pitch. You want an example of that with a single low string note listen to the opening guitar note on "I feel Fine" by the Beatles. You'll hear the note twang sharp and eventually buzz on the frets and come into pitch. . . .

Again, that's not what you said:

. . . If you strum across the strings and it sounds in tune on the down stroke' date=' but when you back stroke the strings sound sharp . . .[/quote']

Sure, a hard stroke will pull the strings sharp but again that's not what you said. Your post referred only to the direction of the stroke. I can only read what you've actually posted.

[BowerR65]

The last 2 i set up were cheap ibanez GIOs off craigslist. I put the strings on first and set it up how i liked it action wise and least amount of buzz then i set the intonation. Ofcorse the low E needed to be longer and the high E needed to be shorter.

 

I just removed the 6 screws, filled in the holes with dowel rods i glued in and redrilled new holes where it needed to be, these guitars have never played or sounded better.

 

IMO the 6 screw type of bridge doesnt need to be prefectly square with the strings because it doesnt pivot on 2 screws like a floyd. Besides it has no locking nut so i dont even really consider it much of a tremolo system to begin with. Its more or less a fixed bridge with springs.

 

One i moved back quite a bit the other i only needed to move the low E side i left the one screw on the high E side and filled in all the others and re drilled it slightly tilted.

 

If its a 2 post type it will require alot more precision.

 

Most only need to be moved a little bit