What key?

[JonR]

Like I've said, devil's advocate is not a resolution. You can no more make it "the word" than you can commandeer the discussion with it.

I don't understand what you mean, but maybe you're misunderstanding me. I'm not playing devil's advocate, and wouldn't suggest that as a resolution.

Neither am I "commandeering" the discussion - just trying to make it INTO a discussion, rather than a pointless "you say G I say D" argument. Would you rather we just had that simplistic kind of fight? I keep saying it's in G while you keep saying it's in D? That could go on forever..

 

It's useful to see new contributors posting their view of what the key is, so we get a clearer picture of the D-G distribution.

But there's little point in someone who's already given their opinion constantly restating it. Your "vote for D" only counts once.

I guess the various theoretical justifications for both D and G are of some interest, and worth detailing, even if they don't solve anything.

But that's not what interests me, and is not why I keep coming back here.

 

I guess I am trying to make you see my point of view (and I apologise if I seem dogmatic), but I'm not saying you're wrong to hear it in D, any more than I'm saying it's right to hear it in G. Both can be right. Both ARE right. (Not at the same time in the same brain, maybe, although perception can certainly flip.)

 

The fact you keep saying it's in D makes me think you're constantly missing my point, or refusing to address it, which I find irritating. (I'm not missing yours; that would be impossible.)

 

All I'm doing is making an observation which anyone can make: that different people hear it differently. That's not my opinion. It's an obvious fact. The question is not which people are "right" - because that would mean that way too many were "wrong" (and it sounds fine either way). The question is: what do we make of the evidence? That dual perception?

 

It doesn't have to interest you, of course. But I don't know why you keep coming back to say the same thing. Maybe you do believe all those who hear it in G are wrong (deaf, mistaken or stupid)? (Feel free to say, btw, you won't offend me. I can hear it either way.)

[1001gear]

I mean your pet angle doesn't constitute the apex of dis discussion. I wanna explore the way music works for one and what I really don't get is the logic by which you've appointed yourself commissioner of this thread.

I haven't heard any new theory, no insight on the tune or lyric, instead I get stuff like (non quote) The first chord doesn't constitute the key center( un non quote) with (non quote) They end on G. (un non quote) as evidence it's in G.

I mean, carry on, BFD. I'll continue posting as I see fit.

[onelife]

Does music really have a "key" or is that just a way we humans compartmentalize it in order to help us gain some understanding and control over it?

 

[gubu]

Isn't there an Fmaj chord right before the instrumental break?

[1001gear]

Does music really have a "key" or is that just a way we humans compartmentalize it in order to help us gain some understanding and control over it?

 

The answers here go more than two ways.. Culture is involved, maybe genes - but going there is racist I think.

Key is real. It's a set of conditions to keep music under control and accessible on a group level.

Chord progressions and functions might be cultural or genetic but millions of humans liking the conventions of western (European) music lead me to think there's more going on there.

 

More if I can find the wording unless my brain locks.

 

Isn't there an Fmaj chord right before the instrumental break?

 

I got around this by calling it D Dorian. The D major chord would be a sub.

[WRGKMC]

I really hate to come back here, but we're not talking "usually" or "9x out of ten". I totally agree with you there, as a useful hint in general terms, but we're talking about this specific tune. Do you see that there is something very unusual about this tune? Have you read the whole thread?

 

 

There is nothing whatsoever unusual about this song. Its a super simplistic 3 chord county song.

The song has been in the Key of D ever since the day it was written.

 

Here's the musical score. http://cloud.freehandmusic.netdna-cd...zrhoalabam.png

The F# and C# between the G clef and the time signature on the musical staff indicate the key is D.

 

If you want to take it farther. The D major scale = D, E, F♯, G, A, B, C♯, D

 

Relative key B minor

Parallel key D minor

Dominant key A major

Subdominant G major

 

Maybe what throws someone off to think its in a different key is how the lead jumps from a major to minor scales, but the backing music is still in D major.

 

Its same key and chords as Cant You See by Marshall Tucker http://www.musicnotes.com/images/pro.../MN0052092.gif

 

Skynyrd borrowed those same chords and spiced them up a bit with some riffs, added some longer leads and some extra chord breaks. Its still a simple 3 chord song like thousands of others that are written with those same chords. Change the key to G and you have same chord changes to verse to John Forgery's Fortunate Son.

[Vito Corleone]

 

 

Here's the musical score. http://cloud.freehandmusic.netdna-cd...zrhoalabam.png

The F# and C# between the G clef and the time signature on the musical staff indicate the key is D.

 

.

 

And here are several other screenshots of musical score showing a single F# between the G clef and the time signature on the musical staff indicating the key of G.

 

Your pic solved nothing. The extra added snark didn't add to the argument either. Key and Key Signature are two different things.

 

 

 

 

[Vito Corleone]

 

 

Its same key and chords as Cant You See by Marshall Tucker http://www.musicnotes.com/images/pro.../MN0052092.gif

 

Skynyrd borrowed those same chords and spiced them up a bit with some riffs, added some longer leads and some extra chord breaks. Its still a simple 3 chord song.

 

Actually the two songs are quite different and the difference lends more to the "G" argument for SHA. Can't You See has an eight bar riff---two bars of D, two bars of C, two bars of G, two bars of D and the melody and phrasing ends on the downbeat of the second set of D bars on the beginning of the 7th measure of the phrase.

 

SHA has a two-bar riff---two beats of D, two beats of C and four beats of G and the phrasing ends on downbeat of the G chord at the beginning of the 2nd measure of the phrase.

[1001gear]

Fya ax me, you could publish the same notes in Ab minor if you wanted and the song would still be in D.

 

Grooves in D naturally.

[Vito Corleone]

Grooves naturally in G too. But more importantly, the song is based on a guitar lick that ends on a G note on top of a G chord. Which is why the riff, and the entire song, resolves to G. That's why Skynryd, and every other band, ends the song on a G chord. Because that's the key it's in. Case closed.

[1001gear]

I like the G ending. It hangs there real hip and in contrast to a D chord or fade out, is a good stopping point. The only way I get G as the tonal focus is if I add an extra excursion modulating to and setting G.

[Vito Corleone]

The G ending hangs in there nice because it's the natural resolution of the guitar riff, the melody motif and it's the tonal center. End on D and sounds like you're ending on the wrong chord or the beginning of the riff. Like maybe you're ending on the V chord or something....

[1001gear]

Nah, I like it because it has a dark cliff hanger quality.

[JonR]

And there we have the nub of the pointless circular debate, both sides well represented.

 

1001gear says it's in D. He's right.

guido61 says it's in G. He's right too.

 

That's the truth. Both are right - unless they claim their view as objective (provable) fact, which it ain't.

 

As I said before, the way you hear it is right for you. It may not be right for anyone else.

 

No amount of logically argued theoretical support for either case is going to convince anyone with the opposite view, because it's about honest hearing. Not mistakes, or deafness, or stupidity.

 

It's very hard for any of us to change the way we hear the key of a song. With this song - thanks to this debate (starting some years ago) I have done so to some extent.

For me, before the first thread, it was always 100% G, and I never thought it could be an issue. I was stunned to see so many saying it was in D, and to start with I thought they just mistakenly assumed that the first chord of a song was automatically the key chord (ie a theoretical misunderstanding). I was wrong - they really did hear D as the key chord. As the debate unfolded, there were roughly equal numbers on each side, the vast majority of whom refused to accept the opposite possibility (just as you two are doing - a definite Groundhog Day scenario...).

 

I thought that was in itself dumb, and - in the interests of broadening my ears - I tried to hear it as if it was in D. I had some success; I could tell what they were talking about. It still feels more comfortable to me as G, but I don't reject D at all.

 

IOW, you guys are wasting your breath yelling at each other from your opposite trenches. You should each try to hear it the way the other guy hears it. It will do you good.

[1001gear]

I don't think it's a waste of time. I'm not trying to convince Guido or you or any other G-lons. I think it's more important that one have aesthetic convictions. The longer the rap sheet the better.

[Vito Corleone]

Actually, while I clearly hear the song in G, I agree with Jon that both sides are equally right. Both sides have equal theoretical and tonal support. But I figure if I'm going to argue the point I might as well do it in the same absolutist terms as does the other side in order to both make the case for G and to point out the absurdity of the absolutist argument.

 

And no, there's no cliffhanger quality to ending on G. That where the riff and melodic motif resolve.

[1001gear]

Speaking of aesthetic conviction, I see no evidence of G other than one is allowed to consider the C to G a plagal cadence. There must be a thousand other relationships there, not worth the bother either, unless those relationships are to be extrapolated as such. Which brings me back to an earlier point.

NOTHING HAPPENS in G. Somebody said the guitar solo is in G. Contextually, the solos are colors over the tune which like it or not does feature the D chord.

[Vito Corleone]

NOTHING HAPPENS in G.

 

The song is based on a single guitar riff. The riff ends on a G note over a G chord. It's not a transition chord or a melody waiting to resolve. It goes nowhere except to repeat. G is the resolution of the riff, of the lyrical beat, and of the rhythm. There's no other place for it to go. Which is why the song is always ended on G.

 

G it is.

 

What scale is played for the solo is irrelevant. It could be played in Am. The song would still be in G.

 

I IV V is the most common chord combination in country/rock/blues and this is nothing but a simple country rock tune. Why people want to make this most-simple of dumb country/rock songs into something more than it is by insisting it is D Mixolydian is beyond me. This isn't a complicated lesson piece. It's a dumb ass simple country/rock song. I IV V. Or, in this case. V IV I. Oh....big deal. It's BACKWARDS from every other dumb ass country rock song written up until that time.

 

G it is.

[onelife]

This entire discussion has been about which abstract box we can put this particular piece of music into.

 

Why can't we simply agree that some music, perhaps even this particular tune, can exist in more than one box (or perhaps even outside of all the boxes) depending on the perspective of the listener.

 

I seem to recall a story about a British music critic who "legitimized" the early Beatles music by pointing out an Aeolian cadence in one of John Lennon's songs. Lennon's reply was that "they were just chords, like any other chords".

[1001gear]

This entire discussion has been about which abstract box we can put this particular piece of music into.

 

Why can't we simply agree that some music, perhaps even this particular tune, can exist in more than one box (or perhaps even outside of all the boxes) depending on the perspective of the listener.

 

I seem to recall a story about a British music critic who "legitimized" the early Beatles music by pointing out an Aeolian cadence in one of John Lennon's songs. Lennon's reply was that "they were just chords, like any other chords".

 

The diametric perceptions and ensuing yadeh yadeh is all given. I've cited several cases for D, so Jon says yeah so what, that's irrelevant, Guido hears G so it's G. I hear D and know why so it's D

I keep posting because at some level this is a classroom and my rudimentary observations may have some value to those who have yet to experience and might therefore be unaware of the depth and scope of musical mechanics and thought. Aspiring composers take note.

[Vito Corleone]

. I hear D and know why so it's D

.

 

 

I hear G and know why,so it's G.

 

The reason YOU incorrectly hear D is that, for whatever reason, because this simple rudimentary I IV V chord pattern is being played in reverse, your ear hears that starting V chord as the "key". And then when you hear the C chord following it well....that must be the VII because you heard it following the D. But that doesn't make it the key.

 

And then you're reaching to find theoretical support for it. Which is meaningless because it's just as easy to find similar support of G. And probably a couple of other keys as well if one really cared enough to.

 

But starting of "D" doesn't make it the key of the song. The key is G. I IV V. Country/rock. Resolves to G. Simple.

 

Aspiring pop songwriters don't need to bother with that stuff though. Just write what you feel. Like Ed King did. In the key of G.

[Vito Corleone]

Also, if this song is in the key of D then why, being the simple country/rock tune that it is, doesn't the V chord fit ANYWHERE into the song or the riff? It's not implied in the riff going back from the IV to the I. And if the live ending "G" chord was "hanging" like you say you hear it, then playing an "A" would naturally follow to get back to the "D". But it doesn't. Put an "A" in there and it sounds completely foreign. Why? Because it's the II chord, not the V.

 

 

[1001gear]

You're being childish again.

 

[Vito Corleone]

Not at all. At least certainly no more childish than your arguments for the key of "D". But, if you like, I'll accept your accusations of me being childish as you finally coming to the realization that, if you're not completely wrong, that there is at least an equally valid argument for both positions.

 

But try this---you say that ending the song on G sounds "hanging"? Play the music phrase for the aforementioned "Can't You See" a few times around. Then end THAT song on the G chord. THAT"S what a 'hanging' chord sounds like. Everything pulls you back to D. NOTHING compared to the way ending SWA on G sounds, which is resolving and natural.

 

So, again. Key of G is obvious. And supported. Case closed.

[1001gear]

Here's one more bit at work. Since the thing keeps going back to D, merely not ending on D leaves it hanging.

Also analyzing the chord sequence as retrograde doesn't do anything but solve for G

 

In D with no V chord as you say, there are in fact two. (I wish you'd at least read my posts.) The C (VII) and the F (III) - both with dominant function to D.